Deutero-canon

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This feels a little deja vu-ish, so if I’ve posted something like this I’m sorry. I’m in a conversation with a Jew and a Protestant about the deutero-canon, they’re making sense and I am confused and not helping our cause. Please, I need a butt-load (pardon my expression) of proof for the canonicity of the deutero-canon PLEASE! 😦 :confused:

Pax,
Zach
 
This feels a little deja vu-ish, so if I’ve posted something like this I’m sorry. I’m in a conversation with a Jew and a Protestant about the deutero-canon, they’re making sense and I am confused and not helping our cause. Please, I need a butt-load (pardon my expression) of proof for the canonicity of the deutero-canon PLEASE! 😦 :confused:

Pax,
Zach
try the Vatican’s website and look at the documents of the various councils including the Council of Trent. Also try to locate copies of documents of the council of Hippo of 391 and 3rd council of Carthage in 397.
 
try the Vatican’s website and look at the documents of the various councils including the Council of Trent. Also try to locate copies of documents of the council of Hippo of 391 and 3rd council of Carthage in 397.
Thanks, I’ll do that.

Pax,
Zach
 
Hi, I couldn’t find any documents on Trent or any other councils besides Vatican 2. Could anyone give me a link to a site with all the documents to several more recent Church councils? I have a link to the Catholic Encyclopedia that has many very early councils, I’m looking for more recent ones like Trent. Thanks!

Pax,
Zach
 
More recent than Trent? Well, that’s only two Councils (Vatican I and II) neither of which changed what Trent taught about the canon of Scripture. So I don’t think there’s much help there for your question.

In short–the canon of Scripture for both Christians and Jews was formalized after Jesus’ time. Some Christians agree with the Jewish canon (equivalent to the Christian Old Testament) and others (including Catholics) don’t. There’s even variation among Christians about what books are part of our Old Testament.

Can you say more about what exactly you’re looking for help with?

Cheers
 
At the Council of Rome in 382, the Church decided upon a canon of 46 Old Testament books and 27 in the New Testament. This decision was ratified by the councils at Hippo (393), Carthage (397, 419), II Nicea (787), Florence (1442), and Trent (1546).

Early Christians read the Greek translation of the Old Testament, the Septuagint. It included the seven deuterocanonical books. The authors of the New Testament quoted freely from the Septuagint.

Catholic Bibles contain all the books that have been traditionally accepted by Christians since Jesus’ time. Protestant Bibles contain all those books, except those rejected by the Protestant Reformers in the 1500’s. The chief reason Protestants rejected these biblical books was because they did not support Protestant doctrines, for example, 2 Maccabees supports prayer for the dead. Because of this, the Protestant Reformers follow the Palestinian canon of Scripture (39 books), which was not officially recognized by Jews until around 100 A.D.

Why don’t the Jews accept the canon written in Alexandria? It was written in Greek, which after the destruction of Jerusalem by Gentiles, they wanted nothing to do with Greek culture and chose only to recognize the books written in Hebrew, not Greek.

You might find more info at EWTN.com under the Faith ‘section’ Then try searching for deuterocanonical books. I hope that helps.
 
This feels a little deja vu-ish, so if I’ve posted something like this I’m sorry. I’m in a conversation with a Jew and a Protestant about the deutero-canon, they’re making sense and I am confused and not helping our cause. Please, I need a butt-load (pardon my expression) of proof for the canonicity of the deutero-canon PLEASE! 😦 :confused:
Zach-

it would probably be useful for all of us if you gave a bit more detail about the arguments you are confronting - helps to be up-to-date on your competition!
 
Hi, I couldn’t find any documents on Trent or any other councils besides Vatican 2. Could anyone give me a link to a site with all the documents to several more recent Church councils? I have a link to the Catholic Encyclopedia that has many very early councils, I’m looking for more recent ones like Trent. Thanks!

Pax,
Zach
You can do a google search like I did. You will find it.
 
This feels a little deja vu-ish, so if I’ve posted something like this I’m sorry. I’m in a conversation with a Jew and a Protestant about the deutero-canon, they’re making sense and I am confused and not helping our cause. Please, I need a butt-load (pardon my expression) of proof for the canonicity of the deutero-canon PLEASE! 😦 :confused:

Pax,
Zach
This article should help tremendously, 5 Myths about 7 Books 👍
 
Thanks, everyone, for all of your great answers.
Zach-

it would probably be useful for all of us if you gave a bit more detail about the arguments you are confronting - helps to be up-to-date on your competition!
These are the basic arguments. First, the Jews were the keepers of the inspired texts, so apparently they know better than everyone, they didn’t accept the deutero-canon so it’s not inspired. a Second argument is that the books teach unscriptural “ideas” for lack of a better word. apparently the book of Tobit (I found this in ecclesiasticus as well) teaches that almsgiving atones for sin.

I really couldn’t say anything to the first argument, but, I was listening to my priest, and he was talking about confession. All I can remember right now is that three ways we do the “penance” part of confession is prayer, fasting, and almsgiving. I don’t know if that’s what i\he really said, I’m going off of memory here! Could you guys plese help me out?

Pax,
Zach
 
Thanks, everyone, for all of your great answers.

These are the basic arguments. First, the Jews were the keepers of the inspired texts, so apparently they know better than everyone, they didn’t accept the deutero-canon so it’s not inspired.
Since the New Testament writers referred many time to the deuterocanonical texts, including things Jesus said, it is safe to say that at least some Jews of the time accepted them. If it was good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for me.
a Second argument is that the books teach unscriptural “ideas” for lack of a better word. apparently the book of Tobit (I found this in ecclesiasticus as well) teaches that almsgiving atones for sin.
First, without repentance, you could give all you had to the poor and it would avail you nothing. Having said that, what about Zaccheus?

Luke 19:8 But Zacheus standing, said to the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have wronged any man of any thing, I restore him fourfold.

Giving alms is an expression of charity, one of the theological virtues. In our gratitude to God for His Forgiveness and Merciful Love we desire to give back to Him. Jesus told us how to do that in the Sermon on the Mount when He to "…feed the ungry; give drink to the thirsty; clothe the poor (naked); visit the sick and those who are imprisoned; and to bury the dead.

Acts of true Charity to those less fortunate than ourselves will go a long way to atoning for our sins. I am not meaning we should do it as if we are earning a Get Out of Jail/Hell Free card because that would be self-serving and hypocritical. That would have us standing before the Judgement Seat of God and hearing Jesus say He oes not know us.

I can only talk for myself when I say I am so conscious of how much I deserve to spend eternity in Hell for my sins, and yet I am overwhelmed by the knowledge that God has forgiven me, unworthy as I am, and I just want to help others however I can out of sheer gratitude and love.
I really couldn’t say anything to the first argument, but, I was listening to my priest, and he was talking about confession. All I can remember right now is that three ways we do the “penance” part of confession is prayer, fasting, and almsgiving. I don’t know if that’s what i\he really said, I’m going off of memory here! Could you guys plese help me out?
Pax,
Zach
 
Zach Dunn & everyone else:

Until the Jewish School at Jamnia/Yavne (70-135 A.D., After the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem), Almost all Jews in the Diaspora and many Jews in Judea accepted and read all of the books that were contained in the Septuagent. In fact, many of the books for which we have only Greek (Septuagent) copies had Hebrew originals. Jews in the Diaspora read the books in Greek, while those in Judea read the Books in the original Hebrew (with Translations/“Targums” provided in Aramaic). The Rabbis at Jamnia had 2 Problems which needed to be dealt with:
  1. Some books most encouraged the terrible revolt against Rome, and
  2. These same books were being used by Christian apologists to convince faithful Jews to convert to Christianity.
    They saw the same solution to both, exclude the books from the Canon of Scripture and order that no further copies be made of them in their original languages.
Before you consider anything from this School, please consider what 4 of their Canons said about our Lord and us:
  1. Cursed be our Lord Jesus Christ,
  2. Cursed be the claim that He was Raised from the Dead,
  3. Cursed be His followers, and
  4. Directed that all visitors and new members to Synagogues read these curses aloud.
    I’m sure you’re familiar with the following Scripture, “Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, ‘Jesus be cursed,’ and no one can say, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ except by the Holy Spirit.” I Cor 12:3 NIV
Here is a thoughtful Website on the issue:
The Old Testament Canon
columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/sbrandt/canon.htm

I hope this helps.

Your Brother and Servant in Christ, Michael
 
These are the basic arguments. First, the Jews were the keepers of the inspired texts, so apparently they know better than everyone, they didn’t accept the deutero-canon so it’s not inspired.
The Jews rejected the Messiah, and the torch had passed, so to speak, from the Jews to the Christian Church. Therefore, why should we agree to be bound by anything that the Jews have to say about the scriptures then or now? Sorry, but they missed the boat.
A second argument is that the books teach unscriptural “ideas” for lack of a better word. apparently the book of Tobit (I found this in ecclesiasticus as well) teaches that almsgiving atones for sin.
The Jews DID reject the Deuterocanonicals because these books support doctrines like purgatory and prayer for the dead which early Christians (yeah, they were Catholics) were using to win converts. The rejection of these books was a reaction the the success the Church was having. Luther, used the change to the Jewish canon as a pretext for his own removal of the Deuteros from his edition of the Bible because he also wanted to deny the distinctly Catholic doctrines they support.

The Council That Wasn’t
The Myth of Jabneh and the Old Testament Canon

By Steve Ray
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0409fea4.asp
The “Council” of Jamnia
By Gary Michuta
handsonapologetics.com/deuterocanon.htm
 
Zach,

If you want big amounts of proof for what you want to teach, well, it doesn’t exist. That’s not to say nothing exists, just not big definitive proof.

Of course you, as a Catholic, the Council of Trent is your proof sufficient.

First, let’s mention the Council of Jamnia as already mentioned in this thread. The major problem with using that as positive or negative proof is that it’s been pretty well discounted that it seriously looked at the canon of scripture. It was a theory, mostly pushed by one guy, that was quite popular for awhile, but it’s been dying due to the simple fact there is no evidence that it ever set any canon of scripture.

Saying Luther looked to it is strange indeed because he never mentions it. He does mention of course Jerome.

If you take the resources that Luther used in his translation, the Septuagint and Erasmus’ Greek text were silent on the matter. Everything else he used made a distinction between the authoritative books of scripture and the nonauthoritative, apocryphal books.

After Luther came Trent, and for hundreds of years, we’ve been told that they authoritatively set the authoritative canon.

However, as the first person allowed to thoroughly examine and write upon the proceedings of Trent, Catholic historian Hubert Jedin wrote that early in the proceedings, the Council of Trent voted not to decide the authority of the books. That was left effectively an open question. So you have the books that are to be in the canon, but their authority is not decided.

That would be consistent with how the Orthodox use them. They insist on their inclusion, but do not rely on them for doctrine.

And that too would be consistent with the reformers, they too included them. Often they set them in a separate section, a practice the reformers did not start, in order to distinguish them as far as their authority to the plowboy they intended the scripture for. Even many priests of their time did not know the difference, though it was taught to the learned in the seminaries. Truth was, educational level, even among the clergy, was a horrible mess, hence the counter reformation and it’s reforms.
 
These are the basic arguments. First, the Jews were the keepers of the inspired texts, so apparently they know better than everyone, they didn’t accept the deutero-canon so it’s not inspired.
I’m not all that familiar with Tobit so I’ll leave that for someone else to answer but I might be able to help you with your other point.

First, if you want to accept the view that the Jews know better than anyone what the Bible is, then you have to rip the New Testament out of your Bible. (Obviously this argument is aimed at Protestants, not Jews unless they are messianic Jews.)

Second, there was no single Jewish canon of the OT until after the (Jewish) Council of Jamnia around 90 AD. The Pharisees used one canon which is identical with the Protestant OT. The Saducees accepted only Genesis through Deuteronomy. Greek (Hellenistic) Jews accepted the Septuagint canon which contains the deuterocanonical books. The Essenes - the Dead Sea scrolls people - accepted the Phariseical canon minus the book of Esther plus some of the deuterocanonical books plus a few more that were unique to them. The Samaritans also had their own canon. So, if the Jews are the ones we have to take our OT from, which Jews do we follow?

After the destruction of Rome the Jews decided the question needed to be settled. The Pharisees were the dominant party and rammed theirs through. Keep in mind that, by the time this happened, almost all of the NT had been written and the Church had been around for some sixty years.

Gary
 
You want to provide some evidence for what you just said.

There is no real evidence that the Council of Jamnia set the canon. It is known they discussed Ecclesiates and Song of Songs, but that’s it.

It was a theory, no largely discounted due to lack of evidence.

I know you can find lots of people saying it. But no one bothers to find original material, because there isn’t any.
 
You want to provide some evidence for what you just said.

There is no real evidence that the Council of Jamnia set the canon. It is known they discussed Ecclesiates and Song of Songs, but that’s it.

It was a theory, no largely discounted due to lack of evidence.

I know you can find lots of people saying it. But no one bothers to find original material, because there isn’t any.
Even if Jamnia didn’t set the canon, it’s no big deal. Who cares when they decided. The fact remains that, in the time of Jesus, there was no such thing as a single Jewish canon. It depended on which sect you belonged to.

Gary
 
Eileen T, could you please clarify something for me? Did Zacheus give alms in order to be forgiven, or was his giving a proof of his conversion? I would say that he accepted Jesus as Messiah, and gave his money as a proof of his conversion (there is no mention of sin in this passage). Also, you said “Jesus told us how to do that in the Sermon on the Mount when He to "…feed the ungry; give drink to the thirsty; clothe the poor (naked); visit the sick and those who are imprisoned; and to bury the dead.” I have looked at several different versions of the Sermon on the Mount, and I can’t find “bury the dead” anywhere. What version are you looking at? I would hope you are not adding to God’s word (this is what caused the fall in the first place)!

In regard to determining if something should be scripture (i.e.: if a book is “inspired”), I would recommend you review catholic.com/library/Proving_Inspiration.asp and see how Catholic Answers determines this. Now, just for fun, use this spiral reasoning with something like, say, Judith, and see if it passes the spiral reasoning.
 
Eileen T, could you please clarify something for me? Did Zacheus give alms in order to be forgiven, or was his giving a proof of his conversion? I would say that he accepted Jesus as Messiah, and gave his money as a proof of his conversion (there is no mention of sin in this passage). Also, you said “Jesus told us how to do that in the Sermon on the Mount when He to "…feed the ungry; give drink to the thirsty; clothe the poor (naked); visit the sick and those who are imprisoned; and to bury the dead.” I have looked at several different versions of the Sermon on the Mount, and I can’t find “bury the dead” anywhere. What version are you looking at? I would hope you are not adding to God’s word (this is what caused the fall in the first place)!
She actually is referring to the Old Testament reference found in Tobit which shows that the Jews (and subsequently Christians) considered it a work of charity to bury the dead.
In regard to determining if something should be scripture (i.e.: if a book is “inspired”), I would recommend you review catholic.com/library/Proving_Inspiration.asp
and see how Catholic Answers determines this. Now, just for fun, use this spiral reasoning with something like, say, Judith, and see if it passes the spiral reasoning.There’s no spiral reasoning…except perhaps in the contentions of those who dispute the Deuterocanonicals. Martin Luther hated and wanted Esther removed from the canon even as he did James, Jude, and the book of Revelation.

Perhaps the following article will help.
The Deuterocanonical Books of the Catholic Bible
 
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