Deuterocanon Disputation

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How do we answer the claims that:
  1. The deuterocanonical books were not included in the LXX at the time of Christ, but were added later - therefore we should not consider them inspired. (Earliest LXX manuscripts are apparently from c. 400AD, indicating that we can’t really confirm or deny whether the disputed books were there or not.)
  2. The NT does not quote from the deutercanonical books. I’ve seen a number of lists people tend to cut-and-paste or link to as a response. I think these lists are are not very useful. One or two clear examples of the NT referring to the deuterocanonical books would be much more helpful. (I already realize that quotation does not equal canonicity.)
 
How do we answer the claims that:
  1. The NT does not quote from the deutercanonical books. I’ve seen a number of lists people tend to cut-and-paste or link to as a response. I think these lists are are not very useful. One or two clear examples of the NT referring to the deuterocanonical books would be much more helpful. (I already realize that quotation does not equal canonicity.)
Compare Wisdom 2:12-22 with the Gospels. The NT writers probably had these verses in mind when they wrote their accounts of the Passion.:
12 Let us beset the just one, because he is obnoxious to us; he sets himself against our doings, Reproaches us for transgressions of the law and charges us with violations of our training.
13
He professes to have knowledge of God and styles himself a child of the LORD.
14
To us he is the censure of our thoughts; merely to see him is a hardship for us,
15
Because his life is not like other men’s, and different are his ways.
16
He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father.
17
Let us see whether his words be true; let us find out what will happen to him.
18
For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes.
19
With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience.
20
Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him."
21
These were their thoughts, but they erred; for their wickedness blinded them,
22
And they knew not the hidden counsels of God; neither did they count on a recompense of holiness nor discern the innocent souls’ reward.
 
In addition to studying Wisdom 2 and the Passion accounts of the Gospel, I would concentrate on learning Sirach, James, and Matthew’s sermon on the mount. There are many similarities between Sirach & James and Sirach & the sermon on the mount indicating that Jesus and the NT writers considered this book part of sacred Scripture. If you study these sections well and are prepared to discuss them, that is a much better approach than the usual cut and paste variety of argument.

Another example: 2 Maccabees 7 &
Women received back their dead through resurrection. Some were tortured and would not accept deliverance, in order to obtain a better resurrection. Hebrews 11:35.
Hebrews 11 is discussing OT figures. There is no other example
in the OT of persons undergoing torture and not accepting deliverance for the hope of a better resurrection. The writer of Hebrews is referring to 2 Maccabees.
 
Thanks Marco, Janet, and Matrix - these are all great helps.

Anyone else?
 
Thanks Marco, Janet, and Matrix - these are all great helps.

Anyone else?
If you want to really go deep into it, read Gary Michuta’s book “Why Catholic Bibles Are Bigger.” Fantastic book. One of the best apologetics works this century so far.

You can also find a variety of websites that claim the deuteros were included in the Septuagint. Like this one for example. Maybe with more digging, you can find one with a good citation.
 
Have you read “Why Catholic Bibles are Bigger”? This is a fantastic book on this subject. Indeed it lists many scripture verses that show the DC was quoted. It has all the information you need to refute anyone on the subject of the DCs as it is very detailed.
 
How do we answer the claims that:
  1. The deuterocanonical books were not included in the LXX at the time of Christ, but were added later - therefore we should not consider them inspired. (Earliest LXX manuscripts are apparently from c. 400AD, indicating that we can’t really confirm or deny whether the disputed books were there or not.)
  2. The NT does not quote from the deutercanonical books. I’ve seen a number of lists people tend to cut-and-paste or link to as a response. I think these lists are are not very useful. One or two clear examples of the NT referring to the deuterocanonical books would be much more helpful. (I already realize that quotation does not equal canonicity.)
  1. We don’t actually know. We do know that even in the fifth century, the books were not completely standardized. But even if they were, we rely on something. We rely on the notion that anything that was in the bible was considered exactly the same in authority.
Kind of a strange arguement from people with verse numbers and chapters, and pictures, and dictionaries and concordances and others, nonscriptural things in their bibles, wouldn’t you say?

We see old examples of Septuagints that contain books that are not considered scripture today by anyone or at least any group, why is that?

No, it’a a bit more complicated.
  1. While there seem to be some allusions, we don’t have a case where they are quoted as scripture. That’s a bit different than quoted. You might quote a book you just read that people know about or say use a quote from Shakespeare but that doesn’t mean it’s scripture.
Ultimately it’s scripture because God meant for it to be, no other reason.

It all gets confusing because people have used the same term multiple ways and much of the writting about subjects seems more prooftexting than a real desire to show what happened.

Note that today even, the deuterocanonicals are not generally used as a source of church doctrine. Oh, sure, some use Maccabees for support of prayers for the dead, but it’s really very, very little. And that is consistent really across the Orthodox, the Catholic and the Protestant.

You know who read from and quoted the deuterocanonicals quite a bit? Luther and the Reformers did. Since they quoted them, should we understand that they saw them as authoritative scripture. Well, we can’t, we have too much preserved that says they didn’t. Yet some church father quotes the deuteros and boom, supposedly he saw them as authoritative. Or he uses the term scripture. Well even the Lutheran Book of Concord refers to Maccabees as scripture. Words change, and have broader and narrower meanings.

I dont’ really like this constant fight about canon, because I don’t see the disagreement. There are two main blips in a constant string of practice. One is the modern Protestant’s common complete disdain for the deuteros. The other is the apparent statement of Trent putting them on equal footing with the authoritative scriptures. At least even the Catholics didn’t actually follow that. Though it made the couple of places used to support something more popular.

Read the deuteros, what you will find, if you pay attention as you read is instance after instance where the church does not follow the prescribed practice. If they were authoritative scripture, how could that be? It couldn’t.

JJ
 
How do we answer the claims that:
  1. The deuterocanonical books were not included in the LXX at the time of Christ, but were added later - therefore we should not consider them inspired. (Earliest LXX manuscripts are apparently from c. 400AD, indicating that we can’t really confirm or deny whether the disputed books were there or not.)
  2. The NT does not quote from the deutercanonical books. I’ve seen a number of lists people tend to cut-and-paste or link to as a response. I think these lists are are not very useful. One or two clear examples of the NT referring to the deuterocanonical books would be much more helpful. (I already realize that quotation does not equal canonicity.)
First if you use this theory you would have to throw out the books of Judges, Ruth, Ezra, Nehemiah, Obadiah, Nahum Esther, The Song of Songs, and Ecclesiastes as none of these receive even one single New Testament citation.

Plus the early Protestant Bibles not only publish the DC with them they had cross references in them to these books. The early King James Bible actually had 102 cross references between the DC and the Old Testament. Later additions of the King James removed the references. Here is a short list of several cross references: Mathew 6:14-15 and Sirach 7:14, Mathew 27:43 - Wisdom 2:15-16, Luke 6:31 and Tobit 4:15, Luke 14:13 and Tobit 4:7, John 10:22 - 1 MacCabees 4:59, Romans 9:20-22 and Wisdom 12:12, 15:7, 12:20, Romans 11:34 - Wisdom 9:13, 2 Corinthians 9:7 and Sirach 35:9, Hebrew 1:3 and Wisdom 7;26, Hewbrew 11:35 and 2 MacCabees 7:7. All of these cross references existed in early Protestant Bibles. This test created by later Protestants does not work in any sense and was not even presented by the original Reformers as they knew it was incorrect.

I would like to also clarify that the argument that the DC are not accepted because the Jews only accepted works written in Hebrew is incorrect. Some parts of the Protocanon were written in Aramaic not Hebrew and only two books of the DC were originally written in Greek, WS and 2 Mc, The remaining books were composed of in Hebrew. As examples Sirach and parts of Tobit were found in the Dead Sea Scrolls written in Hebrew.

Also the Ben Sira Scroll dated to a century before Christ has parts of Sirach written in Hebrew.

This theory against the DCs just does not hold up critically. I am curious where Protestants get this information as it is easily refuted by existing scrolls that can been scene and dated. (Note there are other scrolls that also identify the DCs earlier than the two I listed. I just can not recall there names.) I see this misinformation quoted quite extensively; however, it is just not true. ???
 
First if you use this theory you would have to throw out the books of Judges, Ruth, Ezra, Nehemiah, Obadiah, Nahum Esther, The Song of Songs, and Ecclesiastes as none of these receive even one single New Testament citation.
That is incorrect. All of the names in Mt 1 between Perez and David are from Ruth.

NT allusions to Ecclesiastes abound.
 
That is incorrect. All of the names in Mt 1 between Perez and David are from Ruth.

NT allusions to Ecclesiastes abound.
I will do further research on Ruth.

Then do you agree with the other books?

As I understand allusions do not fit the criteria of the Protestant test. There would be more DC cross references if we include allusions.
 
I will do further research on Ruth.

Then do you agree with the other books?

As I understand allusions do not fit the criteria of the Protestant test. There would be more DC cross references if we include allusions.
Well, it doesn’t much matter whether you are Catholic, Protestant or agnostic, very few NT references to the OT are direct quotes, but rather paraphrases, and in many cases rather far removed from the sense of the source while obviously referring to it.

With the exception of Ruth and Ecclesiastes, I believe you are correct. Of course, a couple of those books are quite short.

Denying that the deuterocanonicals are referred to in the NT is ridiculous. There are at least two dozen such references in James and Hebrews alone.

But as I said, I wish that the posts above could have been appended to one of the other live threads on the subject, rather than hashing it out all over again.
 
Well, it doesn’t much matter whether you are Catholic, Protestant or agnostic, very few NT references to the OT are direct quotes, but rather paraphrases, and in many cases rather far removed from the sense of the source while obviously referring to it.

With the exception of Ruth and Ecclesiastes, I believe you are correct. Of course, a couple of those books are quite short.

Denying that the deuterocanonicals are referred to in the NT is ridiculous. There are at least two dozen such references in James and Hebrews alone.

But as I said, I wish that the posts above could have been appended to one of the other live threads on the subject, rather than hashing it out all over again.
This topic does come up allot; but, what the heck. At my age repetition is a good thing. It is the only way I can remember anything.
 
How do we answer the claims that:
  1. The deuterocanonical books were not included in the LXX at the time of Christ, but were added later - therefore we should not consider them inspired. (Earliest LXX manuscripts are apparently from c. 400AD, indicating that we can’t really confirm or deny whether the disputed books were there or not.)
The earliest known manuscripts (from the 4th and 5th centuries) contain the DCs. Some non-Catholics merely deny that the earliest known manuscripts match the New Testament-era manuscripts. Thus the burden of proof rests on them: they must prove that there is a difference between the earliest known Septuagint manuscripts and the Septuagint manuscripts of the New Testament-era.
  1. The NT does not quote from the deutercanonical books.
Sure it does.

Sirach – In 1st Corinthians 2:6-10, Paul shows how the wisdom of the world has been given to us by fusing a quotation (v. 9) out of Isaiah 64:42 and Sirach 1:8, applying to them his famous “it is written” which he customarily appends to his Scriptural quotations.
Evidence for the citation: the last four words of the quote (“for those who love him”; in Greek these are four words) are verbatim from Sirach 1:8 but are found nowhere in Isaiah. Additionally, Paul’s subject is God’s secret wisdom, while Isaiah is not speaking of Wisdom, but of the afterlife of believers. If Paul is quoting Sirach, however, this inconsistency is resolved, for Sirach is indeed speaking of divine wisdom in that passage.
Maccabees – In John 10:22-39, Jesus spoke of the Feast of Dedication as a divinely-mandated celebration. However, the mandate to celebrate this holy day is only found in the Books of Maccabees.
Evidence for the citation: Jesus only speaks explicitly of His special consecration by God twice in the Bible: once here and once in John 17. What are the chances that it is mere coincidence making Him teach of His consecration in the context of celebrating the Temple’s consecration?

Elsewhere (in John 2:19-21), He says that the Temple is a symbol of His Body. Now that he is doing exactly what Judas Maccabees decreed about the Temple’s dedication, would it not make the most sense for Him to take this occasion to speak of His own dedication by God for service to Mankind? And when we read that He does indeed speak thus on this occasion, does it not seem extraordinarily silly to deny that He is alluding to this event?

In this context, we read how He cites as support of His consecration, Psalms 82:6. But it cannot be ascertained from that Psalm alone that the Temple consecration symbolizes His own; thus He clarifies that, also, “the Scripture cannot be broken”, which by its language indicates that He is speaking of some kind of command. This language only makes sense if He is alluding to the decree in 1st Maccabees 4:59; He thus called that declaration “Scripture”.
Wisdom – In Hebrews 1, the sacred author reminds us that the prophets all point to the fulfillment of God’s revelation; that is, Christ the Lord. In support, he cites Wisdom 7:25-26. This shows that he considered the Book of Wisdom prophetic and, by effect, inspired.
Evidence for the citation: In the immediate context of the Prophetic revelations (v. 1) and in the extended context of other such examples (vv. 5-13), he uses language and phraseology identical to that of the Book of Wisdom to create imagery identical to that of the Book of Wisdom. One of the words used, apaugasma, is exclusive in all the Hebraic Scriptures to the passage in Wisdom. It is exceedingly difficult to discount all of this as coincidence and yet maintain rationality.

However if we admit that this is, indeed, a reference to this passage from Wisdom, then we must not forget that the sacred author led us to this reference with the words, “God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets”, and thereupon identifies “a Son, whom [God] appointed the heir of all things” as the object of their prophecies. If, then, he refers us to this passage from Wisdom, identifying its object as this Son, what are we to conclude but that he is giving us an example of his prior observation? This is his obvious intention, as per the rest of the chapter.

To recap, the author intends to give us examples of prophecies of Christ. He says that the prophets, through whom God used to speak, all pointed toward Christ, through Whom He has spoken now. He then identifies Christ as the glory and image of God, referring to the passage from the Book of Wisdom. Therefore, the sacred author identifies the Book of Wisdom as a prophetic (and by effect inspired) work.

Judith – In 1st Corinthians 10, Paul explains the symbolism of various Old Testament stories, ending with a quote from Judith 8:25. Of these things, Paul says, “they were written” (v. 11), a variation of the phrase Paul uses throughout all his epistles to denote canonical status.
Evidence for the citation: The context is the Old Testament stories of the Exodus (vv. 1-5), the giving of the 10 Commandments (v. 7), and the Moabite plague (v. 8). Verses 9 and 10 continue the examples with men who “perished by the serpents” and were “destroyed by the destroyer”. This is verbatim from the passage in Judith: men were “destroyed by the destroyer, and perished by serpents.” It would be nonsense to affirm that coincidence dictated that he use twice in two sentences the exact same statements that Judith made without even alluding to her. It makes ever-so-much more sense to accept that he was quoting her in support of the observation that “some of them murmured and were destroyed by the destroyer”, just as she observed, “[for] murmuring against the Lord, [they] Were destroyed by the destroyer”. Now these things were done in a figure of us, that we should not covet evil things as they also coveted. 7Neither become ye idolaters, as some of them, as it is written: The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 8Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed fornication, and there fell in one day three and twenty thousand. 9Neither let us tempt Christ: as some of them tempted, and perished by the serpents. 10Neither do you murmur: as some of them murmured, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11Now all these things happened to them in figure: and they are written for our correction, upon whom the ends of the world are come. – 1st Corinthians 10:6-11 (Douay-Rheims version of the Bible, as revised by Bishop Challoner)

But they that did not receive the trials…and the reproach of their murmuring against the Lord, 25Were destroyed by the destroyer, and perished by serpents. – Judith 8:24-25 (Douay-Rheims version of the Bible, as revised by Bishop Challoner)

Tobit – When confronting Jesus in Matthew 22 regarding the Resurrection, the Sadducees quoted the Old Testament Law together with a story from the Book of Tobit involving an angel. Jesus responds by telling them that they have misunderstood these “Scriptures” (v. 29).
Evidence for the citation: the Sadducees accepted only the Law as canonical. Partially for this reason, they denied the Resurrection (cf. v. 23). Thus Jesus observes that they “know neither the scriptures nor the power of God” (v. 29). If they merely confronted Him about the Resurrection, only the part about them not knowing “the power of God” would apply. But because He says that they were also wrong about “the Scriptures”, it follows that they also were confronting Him about the writings they denied.

To show that Jesus was inconsistent, they tried to show that the Writings He accepted were inconsistent with the teachings He accepted, proving that both could not be true: thus we read (vv. 25-27) that they (for the sake of their argument) granted the truth of the story (which matches the story in Tobit), and they also granted (only for the sake of their argument) the doctrine of the Resurrection (v. 28), however only to show (as per their argument) that these two things were inconsistent.

In answer, Jesus explains for them the true reading of the Law (vv. 31-32), showing that He accepts also the Books that they do. But then He explains the significance of “the angels” (v. 30). Since the Sadducees did not believe in angels (cf. Acts 23:8), it would not make sense for Jesus to reference them, unless they were granting them for the sake of the argument – which is senseless without Tobit, since they appear only in Tobit. Thus Jesus tries to explain that even their involvement (in Tobit) should point toward the true nature of marriage.
 
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