J
JRKH
Guest
Excellent response
- Status
E
Esdra
Guest
Yeah, I know that you believe that the Early Church believed in child baptism. I have discussed that topic in length and depths in other threads here…
But I can also see the “Evangelical” point of view in the light of Mt 19:14 or Mt 18:3.
Yes, I know that as well. Isn’t that wonderful? We evangelicals also believe that with all of our heart and I do so, too!
Yeah, at the moment I have a lot of time. If you are interested PM me, I tell you. You seem a nice and trustworthy person, so I tell you, if you want to know.
No, I’ve never heard of this man. Are his books good? What would you recommend. You know I got 200 Euros (about 265 US Dollars) for Christmas.
But on the other hand, the Anglican Church never has been very far away from Catholicism as far as I know. - Same with the Old Catholics (the Polish National Church) or the Old Catholics (Utrecht).
I don’t even consider them real protestant (all three).
in Christ,
Esdra
E
Esdra
Guest
Hi,
thank you for this nice post.
I can see your point and now can understand the importance some Catholics see in the Douay Reims.
But I see another problem: the Holy Bible (in particular the Vulgate) has been copied by monks in the Middle Ages and I’ve seen a documentary on that ones - they added comments to the Bibles, and it happened indeed quite often that these comments were put into the original text sometimes later on (let’s say 100 years later).
Another problem are mistakes when copying. All people can error.
So I guess the new translations from the original manuscripts are still more reliable than the Douay Reims (to stay with the example.) - the older the better because with fairly young manuscripts we still have the problem with copying errors (and maybe additions). Therefore I think the scriptures from Qumran are so important as they are very old. - Especially the complete Isaiah found among these.
Esdra
J
JRKH
Guest
And this is why we have such a wonderful resource in the ECF’s and The Church which has preserved, not only that which is contained in the canon of Scripture, but much that is NOT included in the canon and yet remains “useful for teaching…” Something that, unfortunately, many who are outside of the Catholic Church miss out on for they, to one extent or another, reject it.
Yes it is wonderfulYes, I know that as well. Isn’t that wonderful? We evangelicals also believe that with all of our heart and I do so, too!
Unfortunately my current life situation prevents me from doing a lot of “indepth” study. I am a full time caregiver for my wife who has Alzheimer’s disease. this prevents me from being able to really consentrate on anything other than her.Yeah, at the moment I have a lot of time. If you are interested PM me, I tell you. You seem a nice and trustworthy person, so I tell you, if you want to know.
Well If you click on This Link, you should see search results that will give you more information. First on the list is This Site. I haven’t gotten into it but it looks realy good.No, I’ve never heard of this man. Are his books good? What would you recommend. You know I got 200 Euros (about 265 US Dollars) for Christmas.
In practice, you are right, the Anglican Church is very similar to the Catholic Church, yet it’s roots remain very much within the reformation. I’m not familiar enough with the other two groups to comment on them.
In any case, since you are obviously a voracious reader and searcher of truth, I think you will find Newman to be most interesting.
I could also recommend a more contemporary convert who came from a background more similar to your own in Dr Scott Hahn. I’m sure you would find him intereting as well.
Peace
James
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Esdra
Guest
Yeah, I’ve never studied anything outside the canon ('xcept the deuteros partly) up to know.
Oh, I see. I really admire these people. It’s a wonderful “service on your neighbor” (hope you understand what I mean. I guess my German thought is poorly translated here!). Others usually put them into an old people’s home or a psychiatry.
Thanks, I’ll have a look.
I know Scott Hahn. I’ve read partly his book “Surprised by Truth” (I guess he is a co-author there?) - But led it aside after some pages as the conversion stories were getting me on my nervs. You see, I know the “dark-sides of Catholicsm” also… (If you understand what I mean.) - as I have been Catholic for about 16 years of my life!
('Though a poorly catechised one…)Esdra
J
JRKH
Guest
If I may, you have seen the “dark side” of some members of the Catholic Church. In addition your poor catechesis, like mine did to me, has prevented you from seeing much of the depth and beauty of The Church.I know Scott Hahn. I’ve read partly his book “Surprised by Truth” (I guess he is a co-author there?) - But led it aside after some pages as the conversion stories were getting me on my nervs. You see, I know the “dark-sides of Catholicsm” also… (If you understand what I mean.) - as I have been Catholic for about 16 years of my life!
Esdra
You mentioned earlier that you have not quite left the church yet - something to that effect. Knowing this makes my goal one of trying to help you understand what it is that you are leaving behind. Not the negative examples, that you have witnessed because you’ll see these in any congregation, but the actual truths and teachings of the Church.
Think of it like this. Would the prodigal son have left home if he knew what he was really leaving behind? This is what I hope for you. That, through catechesis and study, you will come to see that everything that you seek in the “baptist” community is available, and more, right here in the Catholic Church.
Peace
James
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Esdra
Guest
Yeah, and this is what strikes me most! Are not the parishoners (the believers in a Church in general) those where you should see the beauty? Also considering Mt 7:16?
Yes, this can be. And I already have learned a lot here about “my faith”, after 400 posts!
I was referring to that I haven’t resigned officially from the CC (and not really that I can’t part from it! Although I’ll certainly miss the rosary and adoration. Although I also haven’t done the least too often up to know. But the rosary is great!
)Well, up to know, I haven’t seen the mentioned “dark sides” of my “Free Evangelical Church”…
Your metaphore/allegory is really nice. Like it.
Yes, this is what my mom keeps on saying when I tell her how great it was again in service on Sundays. Or if I tell her about worship services like those of Hillsong (or other Pentecostal Churches) which are quite similar to rock concerts sometimes. - Just great! I really luv that!
And this although she isn’t really Catholic anymore (although also she hasn’t resigned from the Church yet!)
U
UnworthyApostle
Guest
We can solve this debate once and for all, and we can do this by one action…
We can all adopt the Ethiopian Orthodox canon!
A. The Holy Books of the Old Testament
You can’t be missing anything with all those books.
We can all adopt the Ethiopian Orthodox canon!
A. The Holy Books of the Old Testament
- Genesis
- Exodus
- Leviticus
- Numbers
- Deuteronomy
- Joshua
- Judges
- Ruth
- I and II Samuel
- I and II Kings
- I Chronicles
- II Chronicles
- Jublee
- Enoch
- Ezra and Nehemia
- Ezra (2nd) and Ezra Sutuel
- Tobit
- Judith
- Esther
- I Maccabees
- II and III Maccabees
- Job
- Psalms
- Proverbs
- Tegsats (Reproof)
- Metsihafe Tibeb (the books of wisdom)
- Ecclesiastes
- The Song of Songs
- Isaiah
- Jeremiah
- Ezekiel
- Daniel
- Hosea
- Amos
- Micah
- Joel
- Obadiah
- Jonah
- Nahum
- Habakkuk
- Zephaniah
- Haggai
- Zechariah
- Malachi
- Book of Joshua the son of Sirac
- The Book of Josephas the Son of Bengorion
- Matthew
- Mark
- Luke
- John
- The Acts
- Romans
- I Corinthians
- II Corinthians
- Galatians
- Ephesians
- Philippians
- Colossians
- I Thessalonians
- II Thessalonians
- I Timothy
- II Timothy
- Titus
- Philemon
- Hebrews
- I Peter
- II Peter
- I John
- II John
- III John
- James
- Jude
- Revelation
- Sirate Tsion (the book of order)
- Tizaz (the book of Herald)
- Gitsew
- Abtilis
- The I book of Dominos
- The II book of Dominos
- The book of Clement
- Didascalia
You can’t be missing anything with all those books.
P
PJM
Guest
Excellent question my friend, THANKS!
***The reply requires FAITH which can ONLY come from God. Tied to TRUE Faith are God’s Wisdon, Knowledge and PROPER understanding.
Let me ask a question is a typical lumberjack qualified to translate a book on heart surgery procedures?
Not too much difference is the Bible. A Catholic Book, collected [OT] and written [NT] exclusively by men known today to have been Catholics. For the Only Christian community in existence at the time; also Catholic. S who do you tink GOD wants translating it?
Now if you could place yourself in GOD’s place and ask: [KNOWING that I [God] founded ONLY One Church, One Faith [set of beliefs] and One Hiarachy to watch over and guide it for ME] "Who should I give the exclusive GRACES too: And the Power of My Holy Spirit too, in-order to insure that **MY SINGULAR TRUTHS ***are properly communicated? ** In MY BOOK [MY Bible} I have clearly assigned this ROLE to MY Catholic Church:
**2nd. Peter 1: 20-21 “First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. “
**2 Pet.3: 16 **“peaking of this as he [PAUL] in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. “
Acts.10: 44 “While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word”
**Eph.1: 13 **“In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
**1Tim.3: 15 **“if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth“. [All SINGULAR] The CC.
Previously I supplied evidence of Just One Church [for which the NT has in excess of 100 references].**Mt. 16, Eph. 2, Eph. 4, and Mt. 28 ** are just some of the examples.
Then if you find this evidence insuficient: PLEASE READ John 14:16-17 and John 17:14-19. These verses my friend apply only too and exclusively for the Catholic Church. There simply were no othr churches in existence for them to apply to when written included in th Canon and Codified.
**Rom.10: 17 **“So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.”
Why does Paul make this very explicit statement? Because God and the HOLY Spirit GUIDE ONLY what is taught by God’s one Church.** [Again READ the John verses quoted above.]**
That dear friend is the precise explaination for the THOUSANDS of different and SEPERATE understandings of the Bible. THEY are NOT inspired or protected by the Holy Spirit, as is the Catholic Church.
That is why after 2,000 YEARS there remains just One True Bible; thee Catholic Bible. Yes there are a varity of translations; some a bit beter or worse than the others; BUT they are all Complete and th essentil message is the same.
Finally St. Jerome DID Translate from the Orginal languages into one common language: Latin. Because by that time the other languages were not widely used. The Roman Rite had becom the NORM! And The Latin lauguage of the LR too became the norm.
God’s continued Blessings,
Pat
J
JRKH
Guest
You are absolutely right. But then How can the parish improve when the good examples leave?
You see what I mean? You say,“Oh the people are bad examples”, and leave. Then there is one less “good example” in the parish.
It’s amazing how quickly they build up isn’t it?Yes, this can be. And I already have learned a lot here about “my faith”, after 400 posts!
Well I can only say you will. The Church, and every church community contains “wheat and tares”.I was referring to that I haven’t resigned officially from the CC (and not really that I can’t part from it! Although I’ll certainly miss the rosary and adoration. Although I also haven’t done the least too often up to know. But the rosary is great!
Well, up to know, I haven’t seen the mentioned “dark sides” of my “Free Evangelical Church”…
Your metaphore/allegory is really nice. Like it.
Yes, you are “feeling” great at tehse “contemporary” services. Not at all uncommon, but such feelings rarely last and many of these communities (I don’t know about yours) have a hard time dealing with folks who are in their emotional Lows and suffering.Yes, this is what my mom keeps on saying when I tell her how great it was again in service on Sundays. Or if I tell her about worship services like those of Hillsong (or other Pentecostal Churches) which are quite similar to rock concerts sometimes. - Just great! I really luv that!
Peace
James
W
WorkerPriest
Guest
Esdra,
Corresponding with you has been a pleasure, and so I am thankful to you, too.
Translations of the Holy Scriptures are never really on par with the originals-- they are by necessity below them. They can be quite valuable, but they are not, by definition, the original works. So, when we translate, we always put the best manuscripts on the highest tier, and work with the others to corroborate them. Naturally, this begs the questions about which texts are actually “best,” and what precisely “best” means… but on the whole, we know that the Hebrew of the OT predates the Greek of the Septuagint, so when we translate into English, we give primacy to the Hebrew and secondary weight to the Greek (and in some cases, Aramaic or Latin, or other languages from antiquity.) Comparative manuscript studies can reveal where copyist errors have occurred, and we can easily distill them out, or add commentary to the footnotes to accentuate them.
I, too, find great value in the Dead Sea Scrolls. One has to keep in mind, though, that everything found there is not of equal value. There were some pretty eccentric folks hanging out in the desert out there, and they had some texts that would really curl your hair… especially some of their non-canonical apocalyptic stuff. So, we can recognize that the texts left to the desert sands, were left there by human beings, who had their own issues and errors to deal with in their day. However, in adding their texts to the others we have handed down to us over the centuries, our knowledge of the Holy Scriptures becomes further enriched. For this, we can give great thanks to God.
May God continue to bless and keep you.
Corresponding with you has been a pleasure, and so I am thankful to you, too.
Translations of the Holy Scriptures are never really on par with the originals-- they are by necessity below them. They can be quite valuable, but they are not, by definition, the original works. So, when we translate, we always put the best manuscripts on the highest tier, and work with the others to corroborate them. Naturally, this begs the questions about which texts are actually “best,” and what precisely “best” means… but on the whole, we know that the Hebrew of the OT predates the Greek of the Septuagint, so when we translate into English, we give primacy to the Hebrew and secondary weight to the Greek (and in some cases, Aramaic or Latin, or other languages from antiquity.) Comparative manuscript studies can reveal where copyist errors have occurred, and we can easily distill them out, or add commentary to the footnotes to accentuate them.
I, too, find great value in the Dead Sea Scrolls. One has to keep in mind, though, that everything found there is not of equal value. There were some pretty eccentric folks hanging out in the desert out there, and they had some texts that would really curl your hair… especially some of their non-canonical apocalyptic stuff. So, we can recognize that the texts left to the desert sands, were left there by human beings, who had their own issues and errors to deal with in their day. However, in adding their texts to the others we have handed down to us over the centuries, our knowledge of the Holy Scriptures becomes further enriched. For this, we can give great thanks to God.
May God continue to bless and keep you.
Hi,
thank you for this nice post.
I can see your point and now can understand the importance some Catholics see in the Douay Reims.
But I see another problem: the Holy Bible (in particular the Vulgate) has been copied by monks in the Middle Ages and I’ve seen a documentary on that ones - they added comments to the Bibles, and it happened indeed quite often that these comments were put into the original text sometimes later on (let’s say 100 years later).
Another problem are mistakes when copying. All people can error.
So I guess the new translations from the original manuscripts are still more reliable than the Douay Reims (to stay with the example.) - the older the better because with fairly young manuscripts we still have the problem with copying errors (and maybe additions). Therefore I think the scriptures from Qumran are so important as they are very old. - Especially the complete Isaiah found among these.
Esdra
E
Esdra
Guest
“First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. “
**2 Pet.3: 16 **“peaking of this as he [PAUL] in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. “
Acts.10: 44 “While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word”
**Eph.1: 13 **“In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
**1Tim.3: 15 **“if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth“. [All SINGULAR] The CC.
Previously I supplied evidence of Just One Church [for which the NT has in excess of 100 references].**Mt. 16, Eph. 2, Eph. 4, and Mt. 28 ** are just some of the examples.
Then if you find this evidence insuficient: PLEASE READ John 14:16-17 and John 17:14-19. These verses my friend apply only too and exclusively for the Catholic Church. There simply were no othr churches in existence for them to apply to when written included in th Canon and Codified.
**Rom.10: 17 **“So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.”
Why does Paul make this very explicit statement? Because God and the HOLY Spirit GUIDE ONLY what is taught by God’s one Church.** [Again READ the John verses quoted above.]**
That dear friend is the precise explaination for the THOUSANDS of different and SEPERATE understandings of the Bible. THEY are NOT inspired or protected by the Holy Spirit, as is the Catholic Church.
That is why after 2,000 YEARS there remains just One True Bible; thee Catholic Bible. Yes there are a varity of translations; some a bit beter or worse than the others; BUT they are all Complete and th essentil message is the same.
Finally St. Jerome DID Translate from the Orginal languages into one common language: Latin. Because by that time the other languages were not widely used. The Roman Rite had becom the NORM! And The Latin lauguage of the LR too became the norm.
God’s continued Blessings,
Pat
Hi Pat,
oh you simply can’t quit catechising me, can you?
You see, I know your point. I guess you even have already posted me this (or sth similar) before!
But this doesn’t mean that I agree with you here.Actually I had a very nice correspondence wirk WokerPriest about this topic.
Have you read it?
As a student of Translation Studies I was actually more interested in the process of Translating the Holy Bible more than theology, which you gave me here.
But thanks. I’ll remember. Who knows what I can use this knowledge for?
Esdra
E
Esdra
Guest
Hi WorkerPriest,
I also enjoyed talking to you about the topic of Translation Issues.
Yeah, I guess the “original works” are not available anymore (after 5000 years this is also no wonder!). We always need to get back to copies where there can be mistakes (typing etc) in it. Especially typing mistakes in Hebrew are tricky, as completely other words may derive from that.
This is also the reason why bible onlyists often say: “We believe in the Holy Bible as the sole basis of faith, as far as it is correctly translated and (more important in my opinion) correctly handed down!”
Esdra
E
Esdra
Guest
Well, actually I was a “bad example” either. In my searching time (before ending up at the Free Evangelical Church) I was even quite Anti-Catholic.
Only if I would revert, I’d maybe be a “good example”. But I guess I am afar from that!
That would probably need another 400 posts and maybe even then I’m not sure, if I’d converted.
Indeed!
Yeah, we’ll see. Up to know our Pastor is a good pastor. And I am quite happy in my “new family” (This also has psychologically seen, a little bit to do with my own family history. But that’s to private to write in a public forum in a post. If you are interested, I can PM you!)
Well, our Church is not that Pentecostal/charismatic like, let’s say Assemblies of God (to use a known Church to you).
We also sing modern songs, but the center, I’d say is more the sermon and the bible. (In contrast to the Pentecostal Churches, where there sometimes even is no sermon!)
But you are right, I really love such worships. I have just recently seen on ERF (a German evangelical TV station) a worship from Hillsong London and that’s just amazing. I was also in a similar worship lately (in Salzburg) called apc (=Austrian Prayer Congress; which takes place every 2 years). That was so awesome. Getting to know all these people that are burning for Christ and worshipping together nearly the whole night. Just great. I recommend you to go to such a worship, if you have the chance. Maybe you come to NY ones? There’s also a Hillsong Church!
P
PJM
Guest
o friend, if you don’t mind my asking? Just wht are the issues holding you back?Well, actually I was a “bad example” either. In my searching time (before ending up at the Free Evangelical Church) I was even quite Anti-Catholic.
Only if I would revert, I’d maybe be a “good example”. But I guess I am afar from that!
That would probably need another 400 posts and maybe even then I’m not sure, if I’d converted.
E
Esdra
Guest
I guess too many.
You see, I’ve found a “spiritual family” that understands me and that I understand. And you simply can’t leave your family in my opinion, can you?
And this kind of community I can have in my Free Evangelical Church, I guess, I won’t get when reverting.
Catholics are different in this respect. Especially since our parish is identical with our municipal. Well, and there are only old people; Nobody’s paying attention during mass. Well, and sorry to say that, it’s boring. (Except the bible readings and the sermon which interests me of course as a Baptist
)Although, I must admit that I would really need go to a mass in our parish once again because I think in the past 6 years a lot has changed. The parish has renewd itself a bit I guess since we have had our new priest.
And I guess I still can’t get over the fact that people are not the Church. (as someone has written me here once; I guess it was guanophore? But that’s longer ago.
)Well, and there are of course also theological reasons.
I have struggeled hard to “build my own religion” and then found out that the Baptists have more or less the same.
It’s very hard to throw everything away I have learned myself by studying the Bible and research in the Internet (various Protestant websites; And I guess I am also quite infulenced by the BoM (which is a VERY protestant book!), because there was a time when I extensivly read the “Scriptures of Restoration”; For a short time even the very non-Christian “Pearl of Great Price” and parts of the D&C that are also everything else than Christian from the LDS Church!; in the meantime [and later on] only the ones accepted by the RLDS Church.) and to accept something completely new.
Esdra
P
PJM
Guest
=Esdra;7341998]I guess too many.
You see, I’ve found a “spiritual family” that understands me and that I understand. And you simply can’t leave your family in my opinion, can you?
And this kind of community I can have in my Free Evangelical Church, I guess, I won’t get when reverting.
Catholics are different in this respect. Especially since our parish is identical with our municipal. Well, and there are only old people; Nobody’s paying attention during mass. Well, and sorry to say that, it’s boring. (Except the bible readings and the sermon which interests me of course as a Baptist
Although, I must admit that I would really need go to a mass in our parish once again because I think in the past 6 years a lot has changed. The parish has renewd itself a bit I guess since we have had our new priest.
And I guess I still can’t get over the fact that people are not the Church. (as someone has written me here once; I guess it was guanophore? But that’s longer ago.
***Unless your a Baptized and Confirmed Catholic, it’s possible to get to heaven outside of the CC. NOT easy; but nevertheless possible. BUt ifthe Lord is pulling you towards His ONLY Church, His ONLy Faith, His ONLy New Covenenat, wel, then you may wish to rethink your position.
Faith and salvation are not about what we like, we wnat, we prefere; BUT God wants, expects and preferes.
If it was to be easy God would not have shown us THEE WAY is through sacrifice, nor would Christ have shared this:***
**Take Up your Cross and Follow Me/B]
**Phil.2: 8 **“And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross **Luke.9 :23 **And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. **Mark.8: 34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Luke.9: 23 **And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. **Luke.14: 7 ** Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” **Matt.5: 19 **“Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. “ Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”
One would do well to recount the story of Lazarus [the begger] and the RICH man. That frind is identical to the situtation you now find yourself in.
PRAY about it.God’s continued Blessings,
Pat**
E
Esdra
Guest
This what Baptists (as well as nearly all other Christian denominations) believe, don’t they?
Yes, I will.One would do well to recount the story of Lazarus [the begger] and the RICH man. That frind is identical to the situtation you now find yourself in.
Thanks, for you as well.
Actually, I am a bit disappointed from your answer to my post. I have so to speak told you all I feel and why I can’t get back to the CC (at the moment), well, and I have the feeling your post didn’t help me that greatly. I would have thought that you go more into detail…
Esdra
P
PJM
Guest
This what Baptists (as well as nearly all other Christian denominations) believe, don’t they?
And I can take up my cross and follow Jesus either as a Baptist, or a Lutheran, or an Orthodox or a Catholic.
**No my friend actually you can’t. What I share in not simply my opinion but the FROM teaching of the CC.
**1 Peter 4: 17 For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And “If the righteous man is scarcely saved, where will the impious and sinner appear?”
**1 Thess 1: 8-9 **inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
**Heb.6 Verses 4 to 10: **For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, [Baptized] who have tasted the heavenly gift, [CATHOLIC HOLY COMMUNION] and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, CONFIRMED AS A CATHOLIC -your decision!] and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, HAD THE BIBLE PROPERLY, FULLY AND TRUTHFULLY EXPLAINED AT MASS] if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned. "
Further: The seven sacraments all Instituted By Christ arein an absolute sense NECESSARY for our salvation. Only in the Catholic Church can one find and receive the God that Created us in Holy Comunion,[And even divoriced Ctholics can continue to be in God’s Real and actual Presence even if divoriced; and so long as one does not remarry, can continue to receive Christ in Holy Comunion.] and ONLY in the CC does one have the opportunity for the KNOWN forgiveness of sins [this Scrament remains available to divoriced Catholics]
From our Catechism:
1129 "The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation. “Sacramental grace” is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. The Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior."
John.20 Verses 20 to 23 " When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained”
W
WorkerPriest
Guest
I suppose this thread is now completely devoid of charitable conversation on the canon, and the respective role of particular elements of it.
Pity.
Peace be with you.
Pity.
Peace be with you.
- Status