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J
JRKH
Guest
I think it’s cool that you are despite your age still “quarreling and debating” with stupid young, ignorant non Catholics here.
And also that you know how to operate a computer. You must be a cool grandpa!
My dear Esdra,
If it is “Paternal advice” that you wish from us olders gentlemen here, We can offer none better than this.
- Pray the Rosary Daily
- Spend time quietly, in prayer and meditation, before the Blessed Sacrament.
- Cease looking to the “poor examples” of other Catholics as a basis for whether to remain in The Church.
- Study the Mass and the Eucharistic teachings until you fully understand them, at least to the extent any of us can…For the Mass and the Eucharist are the very core and center of our lives as Catholics.
- Once you fully understand the structure, the prayers, the reasons etc that are contained in the mass, and have reviewed the underlying and ancient beliefs on the real presence, compare this deep, mystical, spiritual and physical, Christ centered, “communion (co-union) with God”, that is the mass to the superficial, emotional, preaching centered, bible study style of “worship” at your evangelical community.
Don’t be like the Prodigal who had to reach bottom, living with the pigs, before he realized how much better he had it at home.
You asked for paternal advice. This is the best I can offer. Learn from my mistakes. Don’t leave the Church in ignorance. Don’t give up the sancifying graces of the Mass, the Eucharist and Confession.
Peace
James
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Esdra
Guest
Hi James,
thank you for this nice post. Yes, I have thought about something like that.
Please also confer my other post in “The Seven Catholic Sacraments” - because this could also be answer for this post here.
Esdra
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Esdra
Guest
Hi pat,
I really recognise and value your efforts to try to show me that the CC is THE CHURCH.
But I guess I am simply not ready to simply, just like that go back to the CC…
I mean, it’s not easy. I have a (Ana)baptist family and actually up to reading more and writing more here in CAF, I was pretty sure that I have found Jesus in the above Church.
And that what they teach is true.
Esdra
I really recognise and value your efforts to try to show me that the CC is THE CHURCH.
But I guess I am simply not ready to simply, just like that go back to the CC…
I mean, it’s not easy. I have a (Ana)baptist family and actually up to reading more and writing more here in CAF, I was pretty sure that I have found Jesus in the above Church.
And that what they teach is true.
Esdra
P
PJM
Guest
My dear friend in Christ here are two HIGHLY signifiant differences:
Catholics Have Christ Himself
and don’t have to settle fo the spirit of God that one can seldom be sure is actually present. [Testified to by that same Jesus and FVE seperate NT authors.Only Catholics have the valid and licit KNOWN Forgiveness of sins as graced from God Himself. John 20:19-23 is painfuly specific. Alo four of the Seven Sacraments all instituted by Jesus Christs; deal in someway with the forgivenes of sins. OH so very necessary. 1 John 1:8-10, an 1 John 5:16-17.
The final point I’ll offer, is you seem to continually speak of YOUR convience. Consider this:** Phil.1: 29 "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, "
**1Pet.4: 13 **“But rejoice in so far as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.”
And keep ever in your mind and HEART: **Luke.14: 7 **Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, ***cannot be my disciple.” ***
May God grant you Courage and Wisdom my friend. It’s a VERY scarry thing to reject THE TRUTH! Andthus you shall be judged.
Love and prayers,
Pat
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Catherine_k
Guest
With all possible respect, the biggest issue regarding Protestant versions of the O.T. is the difficulties in translation. The catholic versions of the deutero’s and the Jewish versions (not counting Maccabees and other books not included in the Jewish cannon or tanach) are extraordinarily similar . The King James versions of Genesis (for example) are radically different.
M
mortonsam
Guest
We lack nothing in the 66 books of the Bible. The apocryphical books are useful for historical knowledge to a degree (outside of their chronological errors) but they are not Inspired word of God.Hi all,
in another thread a discussion arose concerning the Deuterocanonical Books.
In the following the posts.
Read, and feel free to participate in our discussion.
Esdra
J
JRKH
Guest
Well they were considered the inspired Word of God to Paul who, when preaching to Greeks who used the LXX, stated that ALL Scripture is God Breathed…"
They were the inspired Word of God according to the Spirit Led Councils of The Church that included them in the canon and confirmed them in the canon 6 times between 400 and 1440 AD.
As for lacking nothing, it has already been established that one of the things clearly shown in the deutero’s that is rejected by many/most protestants as “unbiblical”, is prayer for the dead / purgatory.
Peace
James
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Esdra
Guest
Hi,
both of you are right: According to Paul (who used the LXX) ALL books of the LXX are inspired (which also includes the book where it says most clearly about purgatory and praying fo the dead which is 2 Maccabbees).
But mortonsam is also right in the sense that we lack nothing (except maybe praying for the dead and purgatory) because in the deuteros is otherwise nothing to be found of great theological value. - Even the two wisdom books, Wisdom and Sirach, are in great parts to be found in Ecclesiasticus and Proverbs!
Esdra
J
JRKH
Guest
I’m sorry but I cannot accept this. Mortonsam states that the deutero’s, “are not Inspired word of God.” But on what does he base this? It can’t be becuae the early church rejects them, for St Paul had no problem with them. He spent much time in the Greek community and wrote his famous letter to the bishop of a Greek community, who would be using the LXX, and did not qualify his statement that ALL Scripture is God breathed… In fact, in none of Pauls letters, most to “Greek” communites, do we see any qualification that Scripture is restricted to the “Hebrew books”.Hi,
both of you are right: According to Paul (who used the LXX) ALL books of the LXX are inspired (which also includes the book where it says most clearly about purgatory and praying fo the dead which is 2 Maccabbees).
But mortonsam is also right in the sense that we lack nothing (except maybe praying for the dead and purgatory) because in the deuteros is otherwise nothing to be found of great theological value. - Even the two wisdom books, Wisdom and Sirach, are in great parts to be found in Ecclesiasticus and Proverbs!
Esdra
It can’t be that the canonical councils of the Church rejected them for they were included in every “offical”, council approved, canon between 382 and 1440 and on up to and through the Protestant Schism (reformation).
So The Church in NT times and in council - in multilple councils - have accepted the deutero’s as “God Breathed” from the earliest days.
And as for there being little of “theological value” in them, who is to say? Jesus himself did not quote or reference every book in the OT canon. How much “theological value” is contained in the many “historical books” still included in the 39 book OT canon? They offer historical reference and some help in understanding doctrinal development perhaps, but in this sense so would the deutero’s.
Mortonsam declares that he/they “lack nothing” and yet, while I cannot be sure about mortonsam, Most protestants reject prayer for the dead/purgatory as “unbiblical” when it is, in fact, quite biblical as shown in Maccabees.
Esdra, you have shown great wisdom in asking the question about the deutero’s rather than just “dismissing them” out of hand. For our part, we have demonstrated that Christ, Paul and the early Church in general knew of and accepted the Deutero’s as Scripture.
Mortonsam simply dismisses them with little historical or theological justification.
Peace
James
P
PJM
Guest
***REALLY… ***
So your saying all "the good stuff; everyting we need to know remains "
**2Cor.3 Verses 15-16 : **“Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their minds; but when [IF?] a man turns to the Lord the veil is removed.”
** 2nd. Tim. 3:16 ***** “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching***, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work”
1Tim.3: 15 “if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth“. [All SINGULAR] The CC.” [There was ONLY THEE Catholic Church when this WRITTEN AND INCLUDED IN THE INSPIRED BIBLE OF WHAT GOD ACTUALLY SAYS!]
2 Cor. 4: 2 “We have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways; we refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing."
1 Peter 4:17 "For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And “If the righteous man is scarcely saved, where will the impious and sinner appear?”
EACH of these remins in the bible [even your edited copy…] so friend, why are they ignored?
“All” no-longer means “All” including the seven MISSINGS BOOKS!
And one wonders why thre are MANY THOUSANDS of diferent Protestant faiths and bible understandings
God help us!
E
Esdra
Guest
Hi
Just want to mention that also the CC, to be accurate, has not ALL inspired scriptures! As they don’t use the whole septuagint!
(The missing ones would be: 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees, 1 Esdras, Psalm 151, The Prayer of Manasse which is included in the Odes of Solomon [as Chapter 12] and, probably, the Psalms of Solomon )
The bold ones are to be found in the (Russian) Orthodox Church together with 2 Esdras which is pseudoepigraphic.
In fact, there is NO Church that has ALL inspired scriptures (of the Septuagint) … Not even the Ethopian Orthodox Church (although they use books that are not even in the septuagint.)!
Esdra
Just want to mention that also the CC, to be accurate, has not ALL inspired scriptures!
As they don’t use the whole septuagint!(The missing ones would be: 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees, 1 Esdras, Psalm 151, The Prayer of Manasse which is included in the Odes of Solomon [as Chapter 12] and, probably, the Psalms of Solomon )
The bold ones are to be found in the (Russian) Orthodox Church together with 2 Esdras which is pseudoepigraphic.
In fact, there is NO Church that has ALL inspired scriptures (of the Septuagint) … Not even the Ethopian Orthodox Church (although they use books that are not even in the septuagint.)!
Esdra
***REALLY… ***
So your saying all "the good stuff; everyting we need to know remains "
**2Cor.3 Verses 15-16 : **“Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their minds; but when [IF?] a man turns to the Lord the veil is removed.”
** 2nd. Tim. 3:16 ***** “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching***, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work”
1Tim.3: 15 “if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth“. [All SINGULAR] The CC.” [There was ONLY THEE Catholic Church when this WRITTEN AND INCLUDED IN THE INSPIRED BIBLE OF WHAT GOD ACTUALLY SAYS!]
2 Cor. 4: 2 “We have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways; we refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing."
1 Peter 4:17 "For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And “If the righteous man is scarcely saved, where will the impious and sinner appear?”
EACH of these remins in the bible [even your edited copy…] so friend, why are they ignored?
“All” no-longer means “All” including the seven MISSINGS BOOKS!
And one wonders why thre are MANY THOUSANDS of diferent Protestant faiths and bible understandings
God help us!
J
JRKH
Guest
Well said. In fact, this view of the various canons used by the different ancient churches calls up the question of the intent and purpose of assembling the Bible in the first place. As I understand it, it was not to deliniate what was and was not “God breathed”Hi
Just want to mention that also the CC, to be accurate, has not ALL inspired scriptures!
(The missing ones would be: 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees, 1 Esdras, Psalm 151, The Prayer of Manasse which is included in the Odes of Solomon [as Chapter 12] and, probably, the Psalms of Solomon )
The bold ones are to be found in the (Russian) Orthodox Church together with 2 Esdras which is pseudoepigraphic.
In fact, there is NO Church that has ALL inspired scriptures (of the Septuagint) … Not even the Ethopian Orthodox Church (although they use books that are not even in the septuagint.)!
Esdra
but rather to assemble a universal and common volume of Church approved writings to be used universally in the Liturgy. Thus, while the inclusion of a book in the canon testified to it’s orthodoxy and truth, it’s exlusion did not automatically disqualify it as being “God breathed and useful…”
Remember that, even after the regional councils defined the canon at 73 books and this was approved by the Pope, and accepted by the Eastern Churches in 787 at the Council of Nicea, the East and West continued in communion for some time, and the rupture did not occur over the canon of Scripture.
This speaks powerfully to the view of the Church, both East and West in how the Canon and Scripture general was viewed. It was viewed as part and parcel of The Church, the Pillar and bulwark of Truth.
peace
James
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Dave_Noonan
Guest
I was thinking that the Second Council of Nicaea (787) was about iconoclasm. Also, as far as I know, the Churches of the East did not participate in this council.
J
JRKH
Guest
Your question has caused me to investigate a bit further and I find that the Council was indeed called to deal with the issue of iconoclasm. Documents on it can be found HERE
As to eastern participation, it was held in an eastern city, requested by the Eastern Emperor as well at the Patriarch of Constantinople and approved by The Holy Father in Rome.
The Holy Father did not attend in person but sent legates. As to who all was in attendance from East and West, my sources do not give a complete listing, but it does state that:
*“The convocation of the council was announced to Pope Hadrian I (772-795) in a letter of Constantine VI and Irene, dated 29 August 784. They urged him either to attend in person or to send legates. Patriarch Tarasius sent the same message in synodal letters to the pope and the three eastern patriarchs. Pope Hadrian I gave his approval for the convocation of the council, stipulating various conditions, and sent as his legates the archpriest Peter and Peter, abbot of the Greek monastery of St Sabas in Rome.” *
It goes on to say that at least “263 fathers” were present.
So it would appear that this “ecumenical council” was indeed attended by the eatern churches.
As to the bible canon, there is no direct statement about it but in the first canon issued by the council it accepts all the universal and local councils:
*“We joyfully embrace the sacred canons and we maintain complete and unshaken their regulation, both those expounded by those trumpets of the Spirit, the apostles worthy of all praise, and those from the six holy universal synods and from the synods assembled locally for the promulgation of such decrees, and from our holy fathers. Indeed all of these, enlightened by one and the same Spirit, decreed what is expedient.” *
Such previous decrees include the 73 book canon promulgated by four regional councils and approved by the Bishop of Rome.
I hope this helps.
Peace
James
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Izdaari
Guest
Well… I may not be Catholic, but I do have the Deuterocanonical books. I have several Bibles containing them, and there is no authority telling me I ought not to read them. For that matter, there is no authority telling me I ought to read only “Protestant” Bibles, so as it happens, I have an NAB and a Douay-Rheims in my collection, and I’m looking to add a Jerusalem and a New Jerusalem.
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Dave_Noonan
Guest
OK. The rulings of councils are often referred to as “canons” so I’m not sure sure what’s being discussed above exactly.
Also, I guess we weren’t connecting on the phrase “Churches of the East.” You were speaking of the Byzantine church and I was speaking of churches such as the Nestorian and Jacobite churches (or, basically churches outside the Roman Empire, which are often collectively referred to as the “Church of the East” or “Churches of the East.”) By the time of Nicaea II, there were probably more Christians living outside of the realms of Rome and Constantinople than there were inside, and as far as I know, these churches didn’t participate in the so-called “ecumenical” councils after Ephesus. Their role is relevant here because these churches historically had biblical canons that differed from those in the Byzantine and Roman churches.
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Esdra
Guest
And I guess their descendants still have, which would be the Oriental Orthodox Churches.
May I ask which canons they used? The whole Septuagint? Or also other books outside the Septuagint?
I guess you are also referring to apocryphal NT scriptures, right?
Esdra
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Dave_Noonan
Guest
Yes, exactly. Churches like the Armenian Orthodox, Ethiopic, Coptic and various Syriac churches not aligned with Rome.And I guess their descendants still have, which would be the Oriental Orthodox Churches.
Esdra
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