Deuterocanonical Books Removed from KJB

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Calvinator said:
Could a Catholic reject the deuteros between say 400 ad and the council of Trent and remain a good and faithful Catholic?
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Yes, Jerome, who was influenced by Jewish scholars, didn’t accept the deuteros as inspired Scripture, and he is certainly a highly esteemed Catholic saint and Doctor of the Church. Yet, he obediently followed the instruction of Pope Damasus and included the 7 deutercanonical books in the OT canon of his Vulgate translation.

While the canon of Scripture was defined infallibly for the first time at the Council of Trent, previous Councils of Hippo, Carthage, and Florence had identical canons to Trent.

If you are aware of any Church Councils after the 4th century that gave a different OT canon list, please let us know.
 
Janet_S said:
Yes, Jerome, who was influenced by Jewish scholars, didn’t accept the deuteros as inspired Scripture, and he is certainly a highly esteemed Catholic saint and Doctor of the Church. Yet, he obediently followed the instruction of Pope Damasus and included the 7 deutercanonical books in the OT canon of his Vulgate translation.

While the canon of Scripture was defined infallibly for the first time at the Council of Trent, previous Councils of Hippo, Carthage, and Florence had identical canons to Trent.

If you are aware of any Church Councils after the 4th century that gave a different OT canon list, please let us know.
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I more or less agree. I think we discussed before, at least a little, some issue with Trent passing over one of the books the earlier councils included in their canon. I don’t know enough about it to argue one way or the other but I do remember Michuta mentioning it here before as well as in his debate with JW.

I don’t know of any councils that reject the deutero’s, but I suspect you know this already.
 
Calvinator said:
Thanks Janet, but was the vulgate the only bible ever “published” before the reformation?
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For one thing there wasn’t a lot of publishing going on before the Reformation since the printing press was not invented until 1450 AD, just a few years before.

But let me ask you, do you know of a Bible published before the Reformation that excluded the deuteros or placed them outside the OT canon and into an appendix? If you do, in what library can I find it or at what website can I look at it?

I also have another question for you. If the Protestant canon was “the real canon” accepted by the majority of the Church, why do you think the CC decided at Trent to reverse that and, in a completely pointless and self-damaging act, throw more fuel on the raging fires of the Reformation by suddenly declaring “the real canon” (ie the Protestant canon) invalid?

Why in the world would the CC do something so completely stupid and pointless?
 
Calvinator said:
Was a catholic free to reject the deutero’s after Carthage and Hippo?

BTW. newadvent.org has this to say:
“The Tridentine decrees from which the above list is extracted was the first infallible and effectually promulgated pronouncement on the Canon, addressed to the Church Universal.”
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:rolleyes: I know where you’re going with this. Yes, there were a few people who challenged the belief, and like many long held beliefs, was not declared infallibly until later, but the Councils of Carthage and Hippo (councils with a regional influence, admittedly) were echoed by the decrees of Pope Damasus at the Council of Rome in 382 AD, and Pope St. Innocent I in 405 AD All of these lists agreed. Just because there were a few who disagreed with the list from time to time does not mean that there was any real opposition to the canon. Even St. Jerome disagreed with the inclusion of the Deuterocanonical books, but included them due to the directive of the pope. He disagreed, but did not dissent.
 
Janet_S said:
I also have another question for you. If the Protestant canon was “the real canon” accepted by the majority of the Church, why do you think the CC decided at Trent to reverse that and, in a completely pointless and self-damaging act, throw more fuel on the raging fires of the Reformation by suddenly declaring “the real canon” (ie the Protestant canon) invalid?
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Where did I say the Protestant canon was accepted by the majority of the church?
 
Rolltide said:
:rolleyes: I know where you’re going with this. Yes, there were a few people who challenged the belief, and like many long held beliefs, was not declared infallibly until later, but the Councils of Carthage and Hippo (councils with a regional influence, admittedly) were echoed by the decrees of Pope Damasus at the Council of Rome in 382 AD, and Pope St. Innocent I in 405 AD All of these lists agreed. Just because there were a few who disagreed with the list from time to time does not mean that there was any real opposition to the canon. Even St. Jerome disagreed with the inclusion of the Deuterocanonical books, but included them due to the directive of the pope. He disagreed, but did not dissent.
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The only reason I brought this up is that the issue of the OT canon was not settled, at least not in a way that was binding, until Trent. I realize this doesn’t really affect the Catholic church’s claim for their canonocity to much.
 
Janet,

I see you are about to respond to this thread but you better hurry 'cuz I’m sleepy, very sleepy…:sleep:
 
mo3 said:
The original King James Bible had the Deuterocanonical Books. Sometime in the 1800’s, they were removed.

I don’t have a copy of the original KJB so how can I prove it? Is there some place on the web that has the original KJB version?
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Tell them to produce one printed prior to the 1800’s without the Apocrypha. Here is a good selection: greatsite.com/ancient-rare-bibles-books/1800s.htm.

Mind you, they’re a bit pricey.
 
Rolltide said:
Actually, the matter was settled at the Councils of Carthage and Hippo in the late 300s. The Council of Trent reaffirmed the Canon in the face of Protestant reformers. This is a common misconception.
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wasn’t it the Council of Florence in 1442 that “reaffirmed” the inspiration of the 73 books of the bible, then Trent confirmed that Florence had it right and the Canon was set in stone
 
Calvinator said:
Thanks Janet, but was the vulgate the only bible ever “published” before the reformation?
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The Gutenberg Bible, first mass printed Bible had the deuteros in the 1450s. Obviously it is Vulgate based. Obviously it is pre-Trent. That should silence those who claim Catholics ADDED books to the Bible.
 
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