Deuterocanonical books

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tambok

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Hello,

We know that there is a discrepancy between Catholics and Protestant list of books of the Old Testament. Catholics have this DEUTEROCANONICAL BOOKS. If I’m not mistaken, these books are missing also in the Hebrews (Jews) bible. My question is why we (Catholics) have this books and what is the authenticity of including this books in the bible?

Thanks and God bless always.
 
Thanks for that one. Educational indeed. If you have any other reference to this one kindly post it here and I willingly read it for educational purposes.
 
By the way I have found this 3 websites that is against these books.

justforcatholics.org/a109.htm - contradictions
biblequery.org/Bible/BibleCanon/WhatAboutTheApocrypha.htm
johnankerberg.org/ankerberg-articles/apocrypha.html

I am much concerns with the books contradictions. In the site above, the author list a couple of contradictions among these books in parallel to the new testament. If those contradictions are true then these books must not be taken out of scripture. I don’t really know if the author’s information is authentic or he may only distorting words and interpretations.
 
On What Authority would/could we take these books out of the Bible?
The early Christian community and the Church Fathers used the deuterocanon, Several Church Councils affirmed them and It was only during the advent of protestantism that they became problematic for some. Any verse of Sacred Scripture when taken out of context can seem wrong, that seems to be the case in the articles you mention.

This site may be of aid to you:
catholicbasictraining.com/apologetics/coursetexts/1m.htm
It gives an overview of the canon question

God Bless
 
Tambok - a couple of those sites you posted are extremely anti-catholic sites, set up for the express purpose of convincing Catholics to leave the Church. If you are sincerely seeking genuine knowledge you would do better to read sources that are historical or academic. In fact, you’d be better off with Wikipedia. Otherwise you are just being fed propaganda.

The “Jewish Bible” text (Masoretic) that is cited as the “authentic” Old Testament by those who prefer the shorter canon is only 1000 years old. It was set by Jewish scholars who had as one of their criteria to eliminate material they thought had been unduly influenced by Greek philosophy, etc.
I am much concerns with the books contradictions. In the site above, the author list a couple of contradictions among these books in parallel to the new testament. If those contradictions are true then these books must not be taken out of scripture. I don’t really know if the author’s information is authentic or he may only distorting words and interpretations.
You are wise to recognize the possibility of distortion.

There are anti-Christian sites which will outline lots of contradictions within the shorter canon, even and especially amongst the Gospels. If you are going to accept that these criticisms prove any books are not Biblical, you’ll have no Bible left at all.

The reality is that we have the Bible because of the Church’s authority. Those who reject the deuterocanon have no basis for accepting the New Testament. They are just looking for excuses. They embrace Luther’s rejection of the OT deuterocanon but ignore the fact that he also wanted to leave out several NT books.
 
Thank you for all your replies,

My intention for creating this thread is because I was confronted with this issue by my friend which is a non-catholic Christian. I don’t have enough time to research regarding this one that is why I resort in this forum. So far so good. Your replies really helps.

God bless!!!
 
The Canon of Scripture listed in Canon 27 of the Third Council of Carthage (A.D. 397) which was received by the Council of Trullo (A.D. 692) and ratified by 7th Ecumenical Council (A.D. 787).

Canon 24 (Greek 27)

That nothing be read in church besides the Canonical Scripture.

Item, that besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture. But the Canonical Scriptures are as follows:
Genesis.
Exodus.
Leviticus.
Numbers.
Deuteronomy.
Joshua the Son of Nun.
The Judges.
Ruth.
The Kings, 4 books [1 & 2 Samuel, 1 & 2 Kings].
The Chronicles, 2 books.
Job.
The Psalter.
The Five books of Solomon [Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom, Sirach].
The Twelve Books of the Prophets [Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi].
Isaiah.
Jeremiah.
Ezechiel.
Daniel.
Tobit.
Judith.
Esther.
Ezra, 2 books [Ezra, Nehemiah].
Macchabees, 2 books.

The New Testament.
The Gospels, 4 books [Matthew, Mark, Luke, John].
The Acts of the Apostles, 1 book.
The Epistles of Paul, 14 [Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, Hebrews]
The Epistles of Peter, the Apostle, 2.
The Epistles of John the Apostle, 3.
The Epistles of James the Apostle, 1.
The Epistle of Jude the Apostle, 1.
The Revelation of John, 1. book.

Let this be sent to our brother and fellow bishop, Boniface, and to the other bishops of those parts, that they may confirm this canon, for these are the things which we have received from our fathers to be read in church.

ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xv.iv.iv.xxv.html
 
Tambok,

I don’t know if you realize it, but you actually answered your own question. You said in part: “My question is why we (Catholics) have this books and what is the authenticity of including this books in the bible?”

Instead of asking ONLY about the deuterocanonical books, ask the next logical question: what is the authenticating factor in including ANY books in the bible?

The “process” for including/excluding books such as The Gospel of St. Matthew, St. Mark, St. Luke, and St. John, is EXACTLY the same that was used to compile the remainder of the Bible.

We did not need the Church to WRITE the inspired scriptures - but we certainly needed it to review all of the various, purported “divinely inspired” manuscripts floating around during Jerome’s time so that the Church could properly instruct Jerome to compile THE bible (The Latin Vulgate) as the bible to be used by the Church and all her faithful. The Council on Trent makes this very clear:

*SESSION THE FOURTH

Celebrated on the eighth day of the month of April, in the year MDXLVI.

DECREE CONCERNING THE CANONICAL SCRIPTURES
The sacred and holy, ecumenical, and general Synod of Trent,–lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the Same three legates of the Apostolic Sec presiding therein,–keeping this always in view, that, errors being removed, the purity itself of the Gospel be preserved in the Church; which (Gospel), before promised through the prophets in the holy Scriptures, our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, first promulgated with His own mouth, and then commanded to be preached by His Apostles to every creature, as the fountain of all, both saving truth, and moral discipline; and seeing clearly that this truth and discipline are contained in the written books, and the unwritten traditions which, received by the Apostles from the mouth of Christ himself, or from the Apostles themselves, the Holy Ghost dictating, have come down even unto us, transmitted as it were from hand to hand; (the Synod) following the examples of the orthodox Fathers, receives and venerates with an equal affection of piety, and reverence, all the books both of the Old and of the New Testament–seeing that one God is the author of both --as also the said traditions, as well those appertaining to faith as to morals, as having been dictated, either by Christ’s own word of mouth, or by the Holy Ghost, and preserved in the Catholic Church by a continuous succession. And it has thought it meet that a list of the sacred books be inserted in this decree, lest a doubt may arise in any one’s mind, which are the books that are received by this Synod. They are as set down here below: of the Old Testament: the five books of Moses, to wit, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Josue, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, the first book of Esdras, and the second which is entitled Nehemias; Tobias, Judith, Esther, Job, the Davidical Psalter, consisting of a hundred and fifty psalms; the Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Canticle of Canticles, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaias, Jeremias, with Baruch; Ezechiel, Daniel; the twelve minor prophets, to wit, Osee, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonas, Micheas, Nahum, Habacuc, Sophonias, Aggaeus, Zacharias, Malachias; two books of the Machabees, the first and the second. Of the New Testament: the four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; the Acts of the Apostles written by Luke the Evangelist; fourteen epistles of Paul the apostle, (one) to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, (one) to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, (one) to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two of Peter the apostle, three of John the apostle, one of the apostle James, one of Jude the apostle, and the Apocalypse of John the apostle. But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema. Let all, therefore, understand, in what order, and in what manner, the said Synod, after having laid the foundation of the Confession of faith, will proceed, and what testimonies and authorities it will mainly use in confirming dogmas, and in restoring morals in the Church.*
 
Jesus, when talking about scriputures, used the Deuterocanonical books… Here are some examples:
Matthew 7:17 In the same way, a sound tree produces good fruit but a rotten tree bad fruit.18 A sound tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor a rotten tree bear good fruit. 19 Any tree that does not produce good fruit is cut down and thrown on the fire. 20 I repeat, you will be able to tell them by their fruits. Sirach 27:4 In a shaken sieve the rubbish is left behind, so too the defects of a person appear in speech.5 The kiln tests the work of the potter, the test of a person is in conversation. 6 The orchard where the tree grows is judged by its fruit, similarly words betray what a person feels. 7 Do not praise anyone who has not yet spoken, since this is where people are tested. 8 If you pursue virtue, you will attain it and put it on like a festal gown.
Keywords: Good/Bad fruit
Matthew 6:35 Jesus made a tour through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom and curing all kinds of disease and all kinds of illness. 36 And when he saw the crowds he felt sorry for them because they were harassed and dejected, like sheep without a shepherd. 37 Then he said to his disciples, ‘The harvest is rich but the labourers are few, so ask the Lord of the harvest to send out labourers to his harvest.’ Judith 11:19 I shall be your guide right across Judaea until you reach Jerusalem; there I shall enthrone you in the very middle of the city. And then you can round them up like shepherd-less sheep, with never a dog daring to bark at you. Foreknowledge tells me this; this had been foretold to me and I have been sent to reveal it to you.’
Keywords: Sheep without a shepherd.
Matthew 12:42 On Judgement Day the Queen of the South will appear against this generation and be its condemnation, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and look, there is something greater than Solomon here. Read the whole book of Wisdom. What is greater than the wisdom of a King? Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Keywords: Queen of the South
Matthew 16:18 So I now say to you: You are Peter and on this rock I will build my community. And the gates of the underworld can never overpower it. Wisdom 16:13 Yes, you are the one with power over life and death, bringing to the gates of Hades and back again.
Keywords: Gates of Hades
Matthew 24:15 'So when you see the appalling abomination, of which the prophet Daniel spoke, set up in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those in Judaea must escape to the mountains; I Maccabees 1:54On the fifteenth day of Chislev in the year 145 the king built the appalling abomination on top of the altar of burnt offering; and altars were built in the surrounding towns of Judah.
2 Maccabees 8:17 keeping before their eyes the outrage committed by them against the holy place and the infamous and scornful treatment inflicted on the city, not to mention the destruction of their traditional way of life. 1 Maccabees 2:28 Then he fled with his sons into the hills, leaving all their possessions behind in the town.
Keywords: appalling abomination
Matthew 27:43 He has put his trust in God; now let God rescue him if he wants him. For he did say, “I am God’s son.” Wisdom 2:18 For if the upright man is God’s son, God will help him and rescue him from the clutches of his enemies.
Keywords: God’s Son
Mark4:16 Similarly, those who are sown on patches of rock are people who, when first they hear the word, welcome it at once with joy. 17 But they have no root deep down and do not last; should some trial come, or some persecution on account of the word, at once they fall away. Sirach 40:15 The sprigs of the godless will not make many branches, tainted roots find only hard rock. 16 The reed that grows by every lake and river’s edge is the first plant to be uprooted.
Keywords: Fall away/uprooted
Mark 9:47 And if your eye should be your downfall, tear it out; it is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell 48 where their worm will never die nor their fire be put out. Judith 16:17 Woe to the nations who rise against my race! The Lord Almighty will punish them on judgement day. He will send fire and worms in their flesh and they will weep with pain for evermore.
Keywords: Worms and fire
Luke 13:29 And people from east and west, from north and south, will come and sit down at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 ‘Look, there are those now last who will be first, and those now first who will be last.’ Baruch 4:37 Look, the children you watched go away are on their way home; reassembled from east and west, they are on their way home at the Holy One’s command, rejoicing in God’s glory.
Keywords: East and west
Luke 21:24 'For great misery will descend on the land and retribution on this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive to every gentile country; and Jerusalem will be trampled down by the gentiles until their time is complete. Sirach 28:18 Many have fallen by the edge of the sword, but many more have fallen by the tongue.
Keywords: Edge of the Sword
Luke 24:4 As they stood there puzzled about this, two men in brilliant clothes suddenly appeared at their side. 2 Macc 3:26 Two other young men of outstanding strength and radiant beauty, magnificently apparelled, appeared to him at the same time and, taking their stand on each side of him, flogged him unremittingly, inflicting stroke after stroke.
 
The Apostle Paul argues FOR the validity of the Jewish claim that the “oracles of God” – OT Scriptures – were committed to them. Paul said, “What advantage then hath the Jew? Or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God” (Rom. 3:1-2).

So, God entrusted to the Jews the preservation of the OT Scriptures. Now, since the Jews’ Scriptures do not include the Deuterocanonicals, then these works are not part of the inspired canon.

Christ set His seal upon the Old Testament of the Jews when He said, “…These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in **the law **of Moses, and in the prophets, and the psalms, concerning me” (Luke 24:44). Here Christ clearly shows the three major divisions of the Jews’ OT – the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings (referred to as Psalms).

Josephus makes this interesting remark in “Against Apion”: “We have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another, (as the Greeks have,) but only twenty-two books, which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine…” Keep in mind that the Septuagint, which contained the deuteros, was a Greek version of the OT. As to how the Jews view the Septuagint, it is said that the present orthodox Jewish viewpoint of the Septuagint is that the day on which it was made was as calamitous for Israel as the day on which the golden calf was substituted for the true God.

In the 4th century, Cyril of Jerusalem, referring to the Septuagint, said: “Read the divine Scriptures – namely, the **twenty-two books **of the Old Testament which the seventy-two interpreters translated.” During the time of Cyril the Septuagint did not contain the deuteros. This first appeared in the Vatican version dated about the 4th century. In AD 363 the Greek Church in the Council of Laodicea rejected these writings. It was not until the Council of Trent, in 1546, that these were officially accepted by the Roman Catholic Church.
 
Onlyvoice #11
Now, since the Jews’ Scriptures do not include the Deuterocanonicals, then these works are not part of the inspired canon.
It was not until the Council of Trent, in 1546, that these were officially accepted by the Roman Catholic Church.
How do we know which writings are the inspired Word of God? Only through the infallible teaching authority of Christ’s Church.

The “Bible” was given to the world by the Catholic Church. The New Testament was written by Catholics; the Gospels before the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. The books that actually are declared the inspired Word of God was decided by Pope Damasus at a Council of Rome in 382, confirmed at the Councils of Hippo, 393, Carthage III 397, Carthage IV in 419 and canonised at the Council of Trent (1545-1563) – 46 books in the Old Testament, 27 books in the New Testament.

The Septuagint, complete with the deuterocanononical books, was first cited by Jesus of Nazareth and his Apostles. The first Bible translated from Hebrew & Greek by St. Jerome in 400 AD had all 46 OT + 27 NT as did the Latin Guttenburg Bible of the 15th c.

Fr John A Hardon, S.J., in *The Catholic Catechism *(Doubleday, 1975, p 45) points out that the rabbinical school at Jamnia circa A.D. 100 redefined the canon of the Old testament for the Jews, leaving out the seven books from their Palestinian canon because not conforming to the Pentateuch, or written after the time of Esdra (circa 400 B.C.) or not in Hebrew in Palestine, and “made a fence around it.”

Answer by Rev. Mark J. Gantley, JCL on Sept-08-2006 (EWTN):
In the 16th century, Martin Luther adopted the Jewish list, putting the Deuterocanonical books in an appendix. He also put the letter of James, the letter to the Hebrews, the letters of John, and the book of Revelation from the New Testament in an appendix. He did this for doctrinal reasons (for example: 2 Maccabees 12:43-46 supports the doctrine of purgatory, Hebrews supports the existence of the priesthood, and James 2:24 supports the Catholic doctrine on merit). Later Lutherans followed Luther’s Old Testament list and rejected the Deuterocanonical books, but they did not follow his rejection of the New Testament books.
tinyurl.com/793sr9p
 
It was not until the Council of Trent, in 1546, that these were officially accepted by the Roman Catholic Church.
You know this statement is false, right? The canon was declared in the late 300’s. And it was repeatedly reinforced and re-stated in many councils through the centuries. Trent officially closed the canon. That is the only difference.

Have you ever bothered to look at the books in the original KJV? Guess what’s in there?

As to the Jewish canon, the council of Jamnia rejected the Deuterocanons because they could find no original copies in Hebrew. Well guess what, they have found some of the books in the original Hebrew.

You really should look into this issue again.
 
Thank you for all your replies,

My intention for creating this thread is because I was confronted with this issue by my friend which is a non-catholic Christian. I don’t have enough time to research regarding this one that is why I resort in this forum. So far so good. Your replies really helps.

God bless!!!
Have your friend read this…and you as well…catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/wbible.htm

On the Jewish canon…here is some info your friend probably is not aware of…catholicdefense.blogspot.com/2011/07/can-protestants-rely-upon-council-of.html

The “Council of Jamnia” Almost Certainly Didn’t Exist: This is a biggie. We know that there was a Rabbinical school at Jamnia, but there’s no evidence that any Council ever occurred there. The “Council” is just a hypothesis put forward in 1871 by Heinrich Graetz, to explain how the Jews ended up with a single canon.

The Jamnia School Was Very Anti-Christian: While we can’t say that the Jamnia rabbinical school ever produced a Biblical canon, we can point to a major contribution of the school. It produced an ugly prayer called the Birkat haMinim, which cursed the Christians as sectarians, and prayed to God that for these “sectarians,” “let there be no hope, and may all the evil in an instant be destroyed and all Thy enemies be cut down swiftly; and the evil ones uproot and break and destroy and humble soon in our days. Blessed art You, LORD, who breaks down enemies and humbles sinners.” This prayer was to be prayed every Sabbath, and it forced the Jewish Christians to stop worshiping with the non-Christian Jews in synagogue.

After the Birkat haMinim, those days were decisively over. A Christian could pray to the God of the Jews in good conscience, as He’s the God of the Christians as well. But obviously, a Jewish Christian couldn’t ask God to quickly damn the Christians.
 
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