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Starwarsfan2
Guest
He is not our founder , Christ is , and ONLY He .
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Starwarsfan2
Guest
And I gave you references and quotes showing that you are mistaken about Luthers beliefs you dismiss them in favor of one quote taken out of context with the ones I quoted .
Who would not worship the founder of their faith?
Jon
And St. Jerome says:
Luther’s opinion is not outside opinions expressed WITHIN the Church historically.
Jon
You seem willing to concede that Luther changed the canon. I’m not.
I’m not sure why you continue with this line of polemics. Maybe you think it an insult, I don’t know. Of course Luther, and the other evangelical catholic reformers were protestants. They were the ones who lodged the formal protest at Speyer in 1529.
The people who might be insulted are the ones you claim followed Luther, even thought they did not.
I will concede that all of these folks you believe followed Luther did so, if they will sign on to the Augsburg Confession, or more directly, his Small Catechism. Real presence, private confession, baptismal regeneration, infant baptism, amillennialism. Let me know which ones “followed Luther.”
Neither did Luther
Luther’s opinion was shared by numerous other Catholics, including Fathers of the Church. Some even held smaller canons. Steve, unless you are willing to condemn them as well, your criticism of Luther rings hollow.
Jon
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steve_b
Guest
To Starwars and Jon,
All we are doing NOW is repeating ourselves.
Jesus said unity in His Church and to His Church that He builds on Peter (the Catholic Church) needs to be perfect. How perfect? Equal to the unity between He and the Father kind of perfect John 17:20-23 . He set the bar so high it’s hard to get one’s mind around that kind of unity.
Therefore, look who and what you are defending
Luther not only refused to take direction and correction from Out Lord’s Church, he was excommunicated and went on his merry way causing violence to scripture, and division on steroids from Our Lord’s Church. That’s who you are defending and what you are defending.
As far as Jerome and your quote, as if that justifies Luther and what he did, go back and read the decree of Damasus I and look at the language used. Those 7 books we are talking about are NOT apocrypha they are scripture. #24
Re: Jerome
Did Jerome’s Vulgate go against that decree from Damasus I? Nope . Therefore, I will only say to your point, don’t just look at what people say but also what they** DO**.
Jerome did NOT carve out 7 OT books from the canon and call them apocrypha. Luther DID. You can’t undo that. No matter how hard you try, or people you quote, Luther owns what he did.
The canon decreed by Damasus I, has not changed.
I’ll say it again, Florence was an ecumenical council. It was 150 years before Luther was born. It also validated that canon of pope Damasus I. Luther has no appeal. Luther did what he did on his own steam.
Both of you don’t seem to grasp what your founder wrote about the apocrypha
Luther said “Apocrypha–that is, books which are not regarded as equal to the holy Scriptures, and yet are profitable and good to read.”
He not only wrote that, he acted on it, doing violence to the scriptures.
All we are doing NOW is repeating ourselves.
Jesus said unity in His Church and to His Church that He builds on Peter (the Catholic Church) needs to be perfect. How perfect? Equal to the unity between He and the Father kind of perfect John 17:20-23 . He set the bar so high it’s hard to get one’s mind around that kind of unity.
Therefore, look who and what you are defending
Luther not only refused to take direction and correction from Out Lord’s Church, he was excommunicated and went on his merry way causing violence to scripture, and division on steroids from Our Lord’s Church. That’s who you are defending and what you are defending.
As far as Jerome and your quote, as if that justifies Luther and what he did, go back and read the decree of Damasus I and look at the language used. Those 7 books we are talking about are NOT apocrypha they are scripture. #24
Re: Jerome
Did Jerome’s Vulgate go against that decree from Damasus I? Nope . Therefore, I will only say to your point, don’t just look at what people say but also what they** DO**.
Jerome did NOT carve out 7 OT books from the canon and call them apocrypha. Luther DID. You can’t undo that. No matter how hard you try, or people you quote, Luther owns what he did.
The canon decreed by Damasus I, has not changed.
I’ll say it again, Florence was an ecumenical council. It was 150 years before Luther was born. It also validated that canon of pope Damasus I. Luther has no appeal. Luther did what he did on his own steam.
Both of you don’t seem to grasp what your founder wrote about the apocrypha
Luther said “Apocrypha–that is, books which are not regarded as equal to the holy Scriptures, and yet are profitable and good to read.”
He not only wrote that, he acted on it, doing violence to the scriptures.
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steve_b
Guest
To Starwars and Jon,
All we are doing NOW is repeating ourselves.
Jesus said unity in His Church and to His Church that He builds on Peter (the Catholic Church) needs to be perfect. How perfect? Equal to the unity between He and the Father kind of perfect John 17:20-23 . He set the bar so high it’s hard to get one’s mind around that kind of unity.
Therefore, look who and what you are defending
Luther not only refused to take direction and correction from Our Lord’s Church, he was excommunicated and went on his merry way causing violence to scripture, and division on steroids from Our Lord’s Church. That’s who you are defending and what you are defending.
As far as Jerome and your quote, as if that justifies Luther and what he did, go back and read the decree of Damasus I and look at the language used. Those 7 books we are talking about are NOT apocrypha they are scripture. #24
Re: Jerome
Did Jerome’s Vulgate go against that decree from Damasus I? Nope . Therefore, I will only say to your point, don’t just look at what people say but also what they** DO**.
Jerome did NOT carve out 7 OT books from the canon and call them apocrypha. Luther DID. You can’t undo that. No matter how hard you try, or people you quote, Luther owns what he did.
The canon decreed by Damasus I, has not changed. Before that decree, the canon had not been solidified. After the decree the canon was set.
I’ll say it again, Florence was an ecumenical council. It was 150 years before Luther was born. It also validated that canon of pope Damasus I. Luther has no appeal. Luther did what he did on his own steam.
Both of you don’t seem to grasp what your founder wrote about the apocrypha
Luther said “Apocrypha–that is, books which are not regarded as equal to the holy Scriptures, and yet are profitable and good to read.”
He not only wrote that, he acted on it, doing violence to the scriptures.
All we are doing NOW is repeating ourselves.
Jesus said unity in His Church and to His Church that He builds on Peter (the Catholic Church) needs to be perfect. How perfect? Equal to the unity between He and the Father kind of perfect John 17:20-23 . He set the bar so high it’s hard to get one’s mind around that kind of unity.
Therefore, look who and what you are defending
Luther not only refused to take direction and correction from Our Lord’s Church, he was excommunicated and went on his merry way causing violence to scripture, and division on steroids from Our Lord’s Church. That’s who you are defending and what you are defending.
As far as Jerome and your quote, as if that justifies Luther and what he did, go back and read the decree of Damasus I and look at the language used. Those 7 books we are talking about are NOT apocrypha they are scripture. #24
Re: Jerome
Did Jerome’s Vulgate go against that decree from Damasus I? Nope . Therefore, I will only say to your point, don’t just look at what people say but also what they** DO**.
Jerome did NOT carve out 7 OT books from the canon and call them apocrypha. Luther DID. You can’t undo that. No matter how hard you try, or people you quote, Luther owns what he did.
The canon decreed by Damasus I, has not changed. Before that decree, the canon had not been solidified. After the decree the canon was set.
I’ll say it again, Florence was an ecumenical council. It was 150 years before Luther was born. It also validated that canon of pope Damasus I. Luther has no appeal. Luther did what he did on his own steam.
Both of you don’t seem to grasp what your founder wrote about the apocrypha
Luther said “Apocrypha–that is, books which are not regarded as equal to the holy Scriptures, and yet are profitable and good to read.”
He not only wrote that, he acted on it, doing violence to the scriptures.
Even your definition of unity has an edge of division to it, Steve. You seem to want to claim St. Peter for yourself, as if we don’t connect to the apostolic Church, as well. Is there a sad, wounding, division between our communions? Yes. And both sides are at fault. The LCMS has, until recently been involved in dialogue, but the level of commitment could be honestly questioned. That is changing.
Father Don mentioned here and in other places the seeming disconnect between apologetics and theology. Apologetics, as we sometime witness here, is decades behind where our theologians are.
Our conversation about the DC’s has clearly been apologetics, and not theological in approach.
Think about what you are saying here, and compare it to what Catholic theologians are saying. No modern Catholic theologian. I can’t imagine Pope Benedict XVI ever speaking of Luther in the way you are here.
Actually, I don’t feel obligated to justify what Luther did regarding the canon. Heck, I don’t even particularly agree with him. But it explains his liberty to have his opinion, as being part of the tradition of the Church, whether it be Jerome, or Cajetan, Cardinal Ximenes, or any of the Fathers who held to a different canon.
St.Jerome expresses his view about them, as did many, many others. Luther did the same, expressed his opinion, and is clear in his prefaces that they were exactly that, his opinion.
If you want to ignore what Jerome said, you are welcome to, but don’t hold Luther to a different standard.
Sure he did. Look at his comments about the. Look at what Cajetan says Jerome’s view was. Cajetan is a contemporary of Luther’s, and not a friend.
but no pope has the power to speak for the whole church. That takes a council, and no council up through Luther’s time states the canon as dogmatically defined. If it had, Cajetan would never have spoken the way he did, and gotten away with it.
well, you’re wrong, as numerous others, including Cardinals testify to. What Luther did, others were doing, too.
there you go again with the founder nonsense, Steve.
:tsktsk:
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Starwarsfan2
Guest
You don’t seem to get what Luther stated when he stated otherwise multiple times , and pope Damascus had no right to force a canon down believers throats .
Father,
Much thanks for these observations. Perhaps over time, we will see the growth of dialogue in this vein, and a decline in the dialogue of polemics.
Jon
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mattp0625
Guest
Luther was also skeptical/suspicious of James, Hebrews and Revelations.
These books must have been difficult to deal with when writing the Protestant doctrines of Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura:
-faith without works is dead, a man is justified by works and not faith only, anointing of the sick by priests, the priesthood, spirits of just men made perfect in the kingdom, confess to be saved, prayers of the saints in heaven, the woman with the sun and moon who brought forth the man child to rule all nations and who fled into the forest, etc.
These books must have been difficult to deal with when writing the Protestant doctrines of Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura:
-faith without works is dead, a man is justified by works and not faith only, anointing of the sick by priests, the priesthood, spirits of just men made perfect in the kingdom, confess to be saved, prayers of the saints in heaven, the woman with the sun and moon who brought forth the man child to rule all nations and who fled into the forest, etc.
I agree. Using apocrypha here mixes the DCs with the truly apocryphal ( in the western Church) books.
The beginning of Luther’s commentary on1 Maccabees:
Jon
And Jude, too, but so did many dating back to Eusebius. In fact, Luther mentions that James was “rejected by the ancients” and yet he still “praises it.”
So, no, while Luther struggled with James , others did not, and I am not aware of theological problems with any of them. And there is certainly not any problem regarding sola scriptura.
Jon
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Duane1966
Guest
Are you saying that believers have a right to choose their own canon? If not, then I do not see your problem with Pope Damasus affirming a canon, set at a council.
As for your saying Florence is not ecumenical, it meets the criteria of an ecumenical council.
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steve_b
Guest
Speaking of the topic, there IS division. No question about it. It’s crystal clear.
Your founder separated 7 books from the canon and called those books unequal to scripture.
J:
I would suggest, apologetics as a whole, really doesn’t change that much. Has all the squishy ecumenical speak produced less division? I would suggest it has not only solidified the divisions that are already there, but produces another wave of division, because the language is sooooooo sloppy it further confuses the already confused.
J:
I don’t see it as an either/or.
1 Peter 3:15 but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. *Always be prepared to make a defense *πολογίαν apologia ] to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence;
I would say, apologetics and theology are partners not adversaries
J:
Luther is an excommunicated heretic. That’s history. What’s changed?
He removed books from the bible, & added words to the bible that caused huge divisions in people’s faith
The Gospel According to Luther Father Greg Lockwood explains the gospel according to Luther. Fr. Gregory Lockwood … 5636 (Non-Catholic, history, Martin Luther, Protestant, Protestant …
Radio Shows
Martin Luther
Lutheranism
J:
We all have a right to our own opinions but not to our own truth. Jerome while having his own opinions, was obedient to the decree of pope Damasus on the canon of scripture. That’s the point. And history shows, Jerome made the right decision
Luther otoh had his own standards, and not only had no interest in being led by the Church but was excommunicated for his errors as a heretic. And unless you know differently, he never reconciled with the Church or changed his heretical views.
J:
What did the Church say about the canon? Florence, an ecumenical council, named the same books in the canon as the council of Rome in 382. That’s the point. Neither Jerome, nor Cajetan changed that or even attempted to change it.
Luther did change it.
J:
Wrong.
What part of the Church does Jesus say that Peter has no rule over? And since not even the gates of Hell prevail against Our Lord’s Church, Peter’s successors have that same authority. You’ve seen the arguments and the defense many times
J:
Councils have authority over the entire Church as well…WHEN the bishops are in complete union with each other, AND when they are in communion with the pope.
The pope always has the right of veto power.
Now I think we’re getting to the heart of the matter
J:
Heresies were not always but often named after their founders.
Examples
Arius and Arianism
Pelagius and pelagianism
Calvin and Calvinism
Luther and Lutheranism
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steve_b
Guest
I look at what a person says but I pay particular attention to what they DO.
In Luther’s case his quote matched his action.
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steve_b
Guest
When Luther said this “Apocrypha–that is, books which are not regarded as equal to the holy Scriptures, and yet are profitable and good to read.” Then took 7 OT canonical books and demoted them to apocrypha (not scripture), then it’s clear by his action what his quote means
S:
You sound like Luther
BTW,
The ecumenical council of Florence 1442 ratified the decree of Damasus in 382. 73 books by name in the canon. The ecumenical council of Trent also defined the same canon of books.
From the council of Florence (all emphasis mine)
"Most firmly* it believes, professes and preaches* that the one true God, Father, Son and holy Spirit, is the creator of all things that are, visible and invisible, who, when he willed it, made from his own goodness all creatures, both spiritual and corporeal, good indeed because they are made by the supreme good, but mutable because they are made from nothing, and it asserts that there is no nature of evil because every nature, in so far as it is a nature, is good. It professes that one and the same God is the author of the old and the new Testament — that is, the law and the prophets, and the gospel — since the saints of both testaments spoke under the inspiration of the same Spirit. It accepts and venerates their books, whose titles are as follows.
Five books of Moses, namely Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Joshua, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, Esdras, Nehemiah, Tobit, Judith, Esther, Job, Psalms of David, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Baruch, Ezechiel, Daniel; the twelve minor prophets, namely Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi; two books of the Maccabees; the four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; fourteen letters of Paul, to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, two to the Thessalonians, to the Colossians, two to Timothy, to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two letters of Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude; Acts of the Apostles; Apocalypse of John."
Session 11 (1442)
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steve_b
Guest
here’s his 1534 bibel “apocrypha” click on the image
http://www.lstc.edu/gruber/luthers_bible/images/1534apoc175.gif
Luther’s quote “Apocrypha–that is, books which are not regarded as equal to the holy Scriptures, and yet are profitable and good to read.”
What part of Luther’s statement is NOT CRYSTAL CLEAR? Apocrypha is NOT EQUAL to scripture to Luther
Jon, you are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.
J:
All Protestants copied Luther’s canon. Unless you think they came up with the same canon all on their own. Which I would find REALLY hard to believe.
J:
They followed his canon
J:
They followed his canon.
J:
In my other posts I showed you that Jerome, out of obedience, translated 73 books into the Latin Vulgate. It doesn’t matter his personal POV, he included all 73 books out of obedience to the decree of Damasus. And 2 ecumenical councils, Florence 1442, and Trent 1546, validated that same canon. Damasus got it right and so did Jerome’s decision to follow Damasus…
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