Deuteronomy 13:16

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The commandment has the meaning of not taking innocent life; not murdering.

We know God authorized capital punishment in the OT for certain offenses. He also commanded battle for the Jews.

In regards to the killing as part of warfare and taking the Promised Land, God said it was because of the wickedness of the inhabitants that they were being cast out.
Lev. 18:24-25 Do not defile yourselves by any of these things, for by all these the nations I am casting out before you defiled themselves; and the land became defiled, so that I punished its iniquity, and the land vomited out its inhabitants.

Deut 9:5 Not because of your righteousness or the uprightness of your heart are you going to possess their land; but because of the wickedness of these nations…

Deut 20:16-18 …but you shall utterly destroy them… that they may not teach you to do according to all their abominable practices which they have done in the service of their gods, …

(See also Lev 20:23; and Deut 18:19-14)

I realize that small babies and children were innocent. I can only give a couple of points that I have pondered in regards to why they were included in God’s command:
  1. Death of an innocent person, from the perspective of eternity, is not a sad thing.
  2. Problems associated with orphaned children who have witnessed the killing of parents, …
  3. We’re so individualistic today, I think it’s hard for us to relate to the collective/oneness (I don’t even know what words to use:) ) of other culture’s sense of being a people or nation. God’s judgment was on the nation as a whole. (After death, our judgment is individual and personal.)
    I have a feeling I have not expressed this last point very clearly.
Nita
 
I thought of a better way to get across what I wanted to say in “3)” of my previous post.

Put yourself in God’s place. Look down on the earth and all its inhabitants. You see a nation, or tribe of people, where the culture and accepted behaviour has become abominable. The national/tribal laws uphold these practices. All are infected by it. “Inculturation” of its practices begins in childhood. (See Lev and Deut for some of these practices current when God called for their destruction by the Jews).

There may be individuals who have not accepted the sinful ways, but the nation and culture overall have. It has progressed to a point where it is impossible that they will reverse it - that is, to even recognize and hear the natural law that God instills in everyone. The cultural behavior is fed at such a young age that the conscience in regard to the natural law never gets a chance to develop; it is silenced and wiped out. This was perhaps the situation when God called on the Jews to destroy those nations. Their wickedness was “complete” (Gen 15:16)

Nita
 
Hi Nita, thank you for the response.

I can see that there seems to be elements of self-defense in this teaching. Also, Jesus teaches us strongly about those who would tempt.
usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew18.htm

People who lead others away from God can cause harm. Perhaps the aspect of God as shepherd is related here. Also, the Scripture states to investigate thoroughly so this action is to be considered carefully.

Deuteronomy 13 may have some verbal elements in common with the Vassal Treaty of Esarhaddon. Also, at that time there may have been tribal attacks or similar so protecting communities may have been very important. This law also may have been intended to serve as a deterrent.

Your point about immorality today is also well-taken.

I seek to understand further.
 
Hi Coder,

You know, I think we sometimes forget that the earth and all that’s in it - including us - belong to the Lord. And He cares about His “property”.
Psalm 50:10-12 “For every beast of the forest is Mine,… for the world and all that is in it is Mine.”
Ezekiel 18:4 “Behold, all souls are Mine.”

The earth is His, and as He has said, He gives it to whomever it pleases. (Daniel 4:22; 5:21).

God is very patient with us, but it seems there is a limit to the evil He will allow by His creatures. He promised the land to Abraham, but let him know that the current inhabitants could have the land until their “wickedness was complete”. Only then, some 400 years later, were Abraham’s descendants allowed to come in, conquer the inhabitants, and claim the land. (Gen 15:16)

Regarding the “inculturation” of children that I spoke about in my previous post. It really came to mind yesterday afternoon when I read the msnbc article about the Texas polygamy conclave. They spoke about the young women given as brides and how the young boys were trained to keep up the practice. And of course there is all the teaching that goes on in our schools, grade schools, concerning abortion, homosexuality, … God is still looking down on humanity, on our nation and its culture - which is beginning to be more and more like that of the Canaanites as described in Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

God bless,
Nita
 
I take a different view on this. The Israelites wrote the books of the Old Testament, inspired by the Holy Spirit yes, but it is a story of betrayal & redemption- the betrayal of the covenant by the Israelites and what befell them because they seperated themselves from God.

You can clearly see throughout the OT that the Hebrews start off thinking of God as some kind of mighty super warrior who will fight on their behalf, and end up with a very different understanding of God and how he works. Through the “lens” of the incarnation, we can discover even more about God’s plan for us as revealed in the OT.

Is killing people wrong? Yes, the Church clearly teaches that it is wrong. Sometimes we have no choice but to protect the innocent and death may occur as a consequence of that action, but it is not that you intend murder, it happens as a consequence of someone elses aggressive actions.
 
BTW-- have you read the Doctrine of the Church regarding this matter as stated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

**Murder (intentional killing)**forgiveness for the sin of, 1447
only God is the Lord of life, 2258
as a grave sin, 1447
haters as murderers, 1033
intentional euthanasia as, 2324
intentional killing as a legitimate defense, 2263-65
origin of, 2517
seriousness and condemnation of intentional, 1756, 2261, 2268
sin that cries to heaven, 1867
unintentional killing, 2263, 2269
 
Hi FightingFat,

A point to keep in mind is that the Catechism is the teaching of the New Covenant - after our redemption and restoration of the life of grace. The Deuteronomy passage occurs under the Old Covenant.

By God’s will and decree, the Old Covenant involved the establishment of a nation as well as its religion (national religion). The New Covenant was for all people, all nations. * In the New Covenant, God is not involved in human history for the purpose of establishing a nation - but He was in the Old Covenant.*

Nita
 
Is killing people wrong? Yes, the Church clearly teaches that it is wrong.
Absolutely. This is exactly why we are trying to understand why the Israelites would have a law instructing them to apparently kill all inhabitants of a city of some of its members lead people astray.
 
Absolutely. This is exactly why we are trying to understand why the Israelites would have a law instructing them to apparently kill all inhabitants of a city of some of its members lead people astray.
The practice known as “The Ban”, “Curse” or “herem”. I think there are several issues to bear in mind when one thinks about reports of this practice in the Bible. The reason for such exalted tales of total victory lies in the religious purpose of the book, and therefore requires some understanding of the historical context in which it was written. Israel was not fighting on its own; it was God who gave the help and strength for this small band of tribes to overcome much more powerful enemies. Even if the Biblical accounts are somewhat exaggerated and the battles gave Israel control over only a quarter of the land that the book of Joshua describes, the victory was unbelievable unless God had helped. Deuteronomy was written in a Jerusalem astir with new religious vigour and confidence. Josiah understood the nature of Deuteronomy at this time as a program for the renewal of the covenant, unlike the first four books of the Pentateuch, Deuteronomy takes the form of direct speeches by Moses, who addresses the people in the “I-You” language of person to person discourse. It is existential; it puts us on the spot by challenging us to enter into covenant with the Lord now.

So, for the Deuteronomic editors and their audience during the exile in Babylon, the military concepts recounted served as metaphors describing the continual battle of God’s people in every age --especially in the exile, where they were surrounded by the paganism of Babylon. The stories of the conquest of the Land provide an instruction about how God’s people must take control of this environment that is hostile to faith. No compromise is possible. The world will turn the people away from true fidelity to the Lord unless the community of believers subdues it and takes it captive. The real battle is about preserving faith in a glamorous world of distraction and temptation—a theme most relevant to the exiles living under the spell of Babylon’s enchantments in the middle of the sixth century B.C.

Deuteronomy 13:16 says:
“Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt.”
This practice highlights the fact that the war belongs to the Lord, it is practised to show that Israel put all her trust in God alone during the war and sought nothing for herself. These violent texts were clearly not supposed to be interpreted by the Deuteronomist’s original audience of exiles in Babylon as a call to kill their pagan captors or attack their enemies in the land on their return from exile (c.f. Joshua 4:1-6:21; Neh 3:33-4:17; 6:1-7:3). They appreciated the actions of Joshua’s army as graphic illustrations highlighting the importance of keeping the first commandment. The threat of judgement did not hang over the foreigners as much as over Israel herself. She had to banish from her environment every temptation to worship the idols of the world. For the exiles in Babylon, this imposed an obligation on the Jews to construct an environment from the free allurements of the pagan culture.
 
Thank you for the answer. Are you saying that Deuteronomy is similar to the teaching of Jesus: “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off.”? That is, it would be understood that the strong language was not meant to be literal but nonetheless was intended to impress the importance of the point?

Mark 9:42-47
usccb.org/nab/bible/mark/mark9.htm
 
Thank you for the answer. Are you saying that Deuteronomy is similar to the teaching of Jesus: “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off.”? That is, it would be understood that the strong language was not meant to be literal but nonetheless was intended to impress the importance of the point?
That’s an interesting theological idea that you could certainly build an interesting thesis around! To be honest, I think you are looking too closely at the text without considering it as a whole, in a historical and social context. This is so important to a better understanding of Scripture in my opinion.

I don’t think the Deuteronomic authors are exaggerating in order to make a point. I think for their audience the point was self evident. I think better examples of the kind of actions you are asking about exist in the historical books (Judges and Joshua), although the destruction of the Amorites in Dt. 2 is pretty nasty!

The historical nature of these books should be taken into context. The Bible contains a variety of literary genres and understanding what is what aids interpretation no end. Modern people find these acts shocking, but one should perhaps bear in mind that the ancient world did not share our outlook. Their ethical principles often placed national survival above any personal goods and identified success in war or politics with the will of their god or gods. In many respects the Old Testament is a story of how the Hebrew God stood in direct opposition to this, and how the Israelites came to understand this—slowly, from the warrior God of Exodus and the Historical books, to the exilic re-evaluation of Yahwsim without the Temple. God is order in Genesis compared with the chaos and capriciousness of contemporary deities and creation myths. The Deuteronomic editors imbued the stories of history with an emphasis on a pattern that goes like this: the people sin, bring down YHWH’s wrath upon themselves then later repent, are delivered by a judge sent by God, and finally gain peace while the judge lives.

The wisdom literature of the Old Testament marks a transition in thinking which utilises contemporary philosophy to ask questions about human responsibility, creation, suffering and the remoteness of God; questions which were relevant to every culture then, just as they are now. John Paul II acknowledged this in his encyclical Fides et Ratio when he stated the wisdom literature contained a “treasury of cultures and civilisations which have long since vanished”. Israel’s faith in YHWH gave this cultural treasure trove of wisdom a unique character. Ultimately, this philosophy developed within Israel to the point where we see the author of the book of Wisdom reading Sacred Scripture with a mind that appreciated the legitimate insights of Hellenistic reflection.

Looking toward the New Testament~ Deuteronomy often inspired preachers of the word in early Christian communities as they discerned that Jesus redeemed the history of his people and they knew him to be a “prophet like Moses” (Dt. 18:15) there are also resonances of Deuteronomy echoing through Jesus vocabulary as he implants God’s word on the hearts of all who believe in him. In his temptations, Jesus redeems the history of Israel by reliving their experience and overcoming the power of Satan precisely where they had weakened. At the transfiguration, the Father admonishes the audience “Listen to him” in an allusion to Jesus as the fulfilment of Moses’ promise (Mk 9:7; Mt 17:5; Lk 9:35; cf Dt 18:15). Matthew also portrays Jesus as the New Moses who positions himself on the mountain to give the people the new law (Mt 5:1-7:29) as anyone who has read Joseph Ratzinger’s book Jesus of Nazareth will remember. In Deuteronomy Moses commissions Joshua and then is last seen on a mountain. The Gospel of Matthew portrays Jesus the risen Lord in a similar fashion: in the last scene he commissions his disciples on a mountain (Mt 28:16-20; cf. Dt 34:1-12).

Deuteronomy’s concern for the state of the believer’s heart prepares us for Jesus’ correction of the Pharisees’ preoccupation with externals (Mk 7:1-9, 20-23; cf. Dt 6:4-6; 10:12-22). The Deuteronomic presentation of obedience provides a foretaste of Jesus’ teaching in the Gospel of John, “if you love me you will keep my commandments” (Jn 14:15; 15:10; cf. Dt 6:4-9; 7:9-11; 10:12-13; 11:1). As in Deuteronomy so in John the disciples are not rigid legalists listening to the voice and not just the words of their shepherd (Jn 10:1-5; cf. Dt 26:17).

God’s release of his word through the mouth of his prophets guides the course of history. The Deuteronomists were so convinced of this that they wrote a complete history of Israel’s existence in the Promised Land to illustrate how the prophetic word shapes the community of faith.
 
Again thank you for the answer and effort. 🙂
Modern people find these acts shocking, but one should perhaps bear in mind that the ancient world did not share our outlook.
I seek to understand further. We know that Scripture is the Word of God. Is the Catholic theological understanding that the teaching in Deuteronomy 13:16 is from God?
 
Again thank you for the answer and effort. 🙂
Hey no problem, I hope this is some use to you-- I’m no priest or teacher, just someone who has had the exact same questions and so took a degree in Catholic theology in order to gain answers!
I seek to understand further. We know that Scripture is the Word of God. Is the Catholic theological understanding that the teaching in Deuteronomy 13:16 is from God?
Yes, of course, but we are cleverer than that…We know to look deeper.
Have you ever read Dei Verbum?
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html
It is the Churches teaching on Sacred Scripture and well worth the effort. It is incredibly theologically dense however, and does require some unpacking. Chapter III thereof states:
  1. Those divinely revealed realities which are contained and presented in Sacred Scripture have been committed to writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. For holy mother Church, relying on the belief of the Apostles (see John 20:31; 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Peter 1:19-20, 3:15-16), holds that the books of both the Old and New Testaments in their entirety, with all their parts, are sacred and canonical because written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and have been handed on as such to the Church herself.(1) In composing the sacred books, God chose men and while employed by Him (2) they made use of their powers and abilities, so that with Him acting in them and through them, (3) they, as true authors, consigned to writing everything and only those things which He wanted. (4)
    Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings (5) for the sake of salvation. Therefore “all Scripture is divinely inspired and has its use for teaching the truth and refuting error, for reformation of manners and discipline in right living, so that the man who belongs to God may be efficient and equipped for good work of every kind” (2 Tim. 3:16-17, Greek text).
  2. However, since God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, (6) the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words.
    To search out the intention of the sacred writers, attention should be given, among other things, to “literary forms.” For truth is set forth and expressed differently in texts which are variously historical, prophetic, poetic, or of other forms of discourse. The interpreter must investigate what meaning the sacred writer intended to express and actually expressed in particular circumstances by using contemporary literary forms in accordance with the situation of his own time and culture. (7) For the correct understanding of what the sacred author wanted to assert, due attention must be paid to the customary and characteristic styles of feeling, speaking and narrating which prevailed at the time of the sacred writer, and to the patterns men normally employed at that period in their everyday dealings with one another. (8)
    But, since Holy Scripture must be read and interpreted in the sacred spirit in which it was written, (9) no less serious attention must be given to the content and unity of the whole of Scripture if the meaning of the sacred texts is to be correctly worked out. The living tradition of the whole Church must be taken into account along with the harmony which exists between elements of the faith. It is the task of exegetes to work according to these rules toward a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture, so that through preparatory study the judgment of the Church may mature. For all of what has been said about the way of interpreting Scripture is subject finally to the judgment of the Church, which carries out the divine commission and ministry of guarding and interpreting the word of God. (10)
  3. In Sacred Scripture, therefore, while the truth and holiness of God always remains intact, the marvelous “condescension” of eternal wisdom is clearly shown, “that we may learn the gentle kindness of God, which words cannot express, and how far He has gone in adapting His language with thoughtful concern for our weak human nature.” (11) For the words of God, expressed in human language, have been made like human discourse, just as the word of the eternal Father, when He took to Himself the flesh of human weakness, was in every way made like men.
 
How do we apply that to this Scripture? You don’t seem to think that Deut. 13:16 is an expression somewhat analogous to “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off”. Did this teaching really mean to kill all all the inhabitants of the city? I can understand that life was different then and there was community defense involved, however we need an explanation about the law to kill “all” when only one or a few may have attempted to lead people astray. Not only that but killing does not seem to fit the crime even for the one who perpetrated this. I do accept that there is an explanation, but I don’t fully see what it is yet. What is the context, literary genre, and/or other that explains this?
 
Continued.
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FightingFat:
The stories of the conquest of the Land provide an instruction about how God’s people must take control of this environment that is hostile to faith.
For example you refer to stories of conquest. Is Deut. 13:16 an example of a story, exaggeration, and/or metaphor?
 
It is didactic, written by Deuteronomic editors in order to teach the exiles.

“since God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, (6) the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words.”

There is a human element to the Scriptures which God intends to be there. Our job is to seek out what God wanted us to understand from the Scripture…In order to achieve our goal, we need to to read Scripture as a whole, we need to see the over-arching principle that motivates the story, and the teleological scope of the work. Our faith is an incredible “organic synthesis” (cf. CCC11) and so we must try and think about Scripture in this same way. In many respects one must ask ones self, what does this Scripture say to you?

The point of the inclusion of this for me is that the Jews came to understand the choice that had been put before them, a choice between life and death.
 
It is didactic, written by Deuteronomic editors in order to teach the exiles.
Hi, if you are conveying the concept that there was a manner of speaking at that time, then I can understand that however to what extent does that apply here and how does it affect the interpretation? Was the instruction to be taken literally at that time? If so, is it proper self-defense because of the harm caused by being lead astray?

This is not directly related to my question but could the influence of teachings like this in Deuteronomy be related to the crucifixion based on the (false/errant) claim by some that Jesus was leading people astray?
 
Hi, if you are conveying the concept that there was a manner of speaking at that time, then I can understand that
Didactic means it intended to teach you something. It was written in the manner of speaking for the time also, of course, and it was written for the Jewish people of the diaspora, with all the epic relevance that entails.
however to what extent does that apply here and how does it affect the interpretation?
To what extent? None at all in a literal sense, but it has tremendous pllication in a spiritual sense and is massively relevant when seen through the lens of the Word made flesh.

Say it is like a puzzle. If you just read that bit of Deuteronomy and someone said it was the “Word of God” and you must obey it then I could understand you being cnfused. But we are to understand the Scriptures as a whole and view Scripture [assages such as this one in the light of Jesus’ mission and teaching.

Was the instruction to be taken literally at that time? If so, is it proper self-defense because of the harm caused by being lead astray?

In an earlier post I explained that it wasn’t to be taken literally by the people it was written for (the Jews in exile)
FF:
These violent texts were clearly not supposed to be interpreted by the Deuteronomist’s original audience of exiles in Babylon as a call to kill their pagan captors or attack their enemies in the land on their return from exile …
My post on April 10th. Read Dei Verbum 19.
This is not directly related to my question but could the influence of teachings like this in Deuteronomy be related to the crucifixion based on the (false/errant) claim by some that Jesus was leading people astray?
Now that’s a great point. Many (called Zealots) expected Jesus to lead a violent revolt to expell the Roman invaders. As you can see-- this had some Scriptoral precedent for the orthodox Jew, so your hypothesis has some merit, yes!
 
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