Deuteronomy 22:21 (that ol' stoning conundrum)

[Jonatello]

Ok so, we all know the basic gist of this issue:

its in reference to a woman who does not seem to be a virgin on her wedding night:

bible.cc/deuteronomy/22-19.htm

“Then they are to make the girl come to the door of her father’s house and she will be stoned to death by the men of the town, because she has done evil and put shame on Israel, by acting as a loose woman in her father’s house: so you are to put away evil from among you.”

Here are the answers I normally get followed by ::: my problem with it.

1. The Old Testament is more of an account of the times than truly coming from God’s will ::: Then where does the “account” end and the “will of God” begin with regards to the Old Testament? This renders the entire Old Testament debatable at best.
2. It was God’s will, but the times and mindset of the people were different ::: What does the ways of the times and mindset of the people have to do with God’s will? That logic could render homosexuality or abortion okay by God for these times.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I’m not quite sure what you are asking, but a lot of the Bible is symbolic and Israel itself was often compared to a whore, lusting over false gods and other religious practices, basically turning away from the Father. So God’s will was to punish his people so that they would learn to follow his ways. He often relented though if people repented. He really loved his people, he was fierce and jealous for thier love. Actually I think he still is, but we have the mediator of Jesus to help us to understand our Father’s love.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Ok so, we all know the basic gist of this issue:

its in reference to a woman who does not seem to be a virgin on her wedding night:

bible.cc/deuteronomy/22-19.htm

“Then they are to make the girl come to the door of her father’s house and she will be stoned to death by the men of the town, because she has done evil and put shame on Israel, by acting as a loose woman in her father’s house: so you are to put away evil from among you.”

Here are the answers I normally get followed by ::: my problem with it.

1. The Old Testament is more of an account of the times than truly coming from God’s will ::: Then where does the “account” end and the “will of God” begin with regards to the Old Testament? This renders the entire Old Testament debatable at best.
2. It was God’s will, but the times and mindset of the people were different ::: What does the ways of the times and mindset of the people have to do with God’s will? That logic could render homosexuality or abortion okay by God for these times.

The government has a responsibility to govern justly, and God established just laws in the Old Covenant. There is no word He spoke in that Covenant that is untrue or wrong, as Jesus Himself said (Matt 5:18, Luke 16:17). Sin results in death, and the sin discussed in the passage, sexual immorality, is “grave matter,” one of the elements of a mortal sin according to Catholic teaching. Permissiveness of such sin by a government is permissiveness of a culture of death. After all, just consider all the mental health, psychological and physical health issues that result from sexual immorality; the STDs are slaughtering millions of people, and that’s not counting the huge emotional cost.

The Law is just.

Here is something else we need to keep in mind as Christians, though. That when men were about to stone the woman caught in adultery, Jesus said instead, “whichever of you has not sinned, cast the first stone.” They put down their rocks. The principle here is that justice is to be the companion of mercy. Jesus didn’t say, “We’ll abolish this part of the Law.” He never changed the Law, but rather fulfilled it, and bringing it to perfect union with mercy, so that the government tempers justice with mercy, fulfills the civil law. As individuals and as a government, we are called to practice justice united with mercy.

For us as individuals, called not to judge, this means that we must retain our awareness of what justice is, of what the truth is about sin and righteousness, even while we show mercy to people. At times, it becomes necessary for us to speak the truth about justice, or what is right according to Catholic doctrine, as well. Showing people that they’ve been living in sin, even gently and tactfully, can be very hard and painful. We need to live with the consciousness of justice and the application of mercy.

The government is in a tighter spot as far as justice goes, for it is the government’s responsibility to enact justice for its citizens. I think our modern governments are wrong to have no laws against sexual immorality. However, I believe that government can legitimately establish a law which does not execute the sexually immoral, but establishes some other penalty instead, like a fines or a period in jail. For justice is to be wedded to mercy, and while the full justice is death, Jesus does not call His people to enact justice without mercy.

It does not seem to me to be a coincidence that it’s with the downfall of Catholic power in Europe that laws against sexual immorality, witchcraft, idolatry, and today even murder (with abortion) have been repealed. These perversions spread as Catholic opposition declined. There is a correlation between the withdrawal of Catholicism and the withdrawal of justice in modern society.

I think we would all do well to remember that the Law is just, that governments are called to rule justly, and also that Christ’s way is the way of mercy, and governments are called to remember mercy and act as Christ would act, in their practice of providing the justice God calls them to enact throughout their lands.

 

[SonofMonica]

So does that mean that it is actually just to stone a little girl to death if she has sex before she is married, except that God is just holding back?

 

[Lief_Erikson]

First of all, what I’m expressing here are my views, and I don’t speak for the Catholic Church. They probably don’t see it the same way in modern times, though I expect they would have during the Medieval Ages and some of the later period since then. I know of no infallible teaching on the matter except Scripture, which is infallible, though like any document, it has to be interpreted. Do not take what I’m saying as official Catholic teaching.

Second, the passage doesn’t say “little girl.” It’s talking about Israelite women, and presumably men as well, who know better. Sexual immorality is a sin of “grave matter” according to the Catholic Church, and it is part of a culture of disregard for human dignity and human life that has killed millions of people through AIDS and numerous other STDs. Sexual immorality is grave enough, in fact, that if the person who commits it has knowledge of the wrongness of his or her action and chooses to do it anyway, it becomes a mortal sin for that person, capable of drawing him or her into Hell. Hundreds of millions have probably been damned through this sin. So yes, it is very serious! It is also very common nowadays. And we’ve lost our sight of how serious it is, in spite of the millions of STD victims all around us, whose fate we’ve consigned to bad luck. Part of the reason we’ve lost sight of how serious a sin this is is that it’s been a few centuries since laws existed against it. The other, and more serious reason, is that we see sexual immorality all around us so much of the time.

This doesn’t mean that people who commit this sin are all valueless as people, or anything disgusting like that. They deserve love, and we should love them and help them to recover. All who sin, including murderers, need our love and deserve it. There is good inherent in human nature. Everyone on Earth should be loved, but the government, at least IMO, has a responsibility to govern justly and in accordance with the Law of God, though with mercy.

Let me just repeat again that these opinions are not official Catholic teaching and that there is no infallible Catholic teaching given on my social justice position.

 

[Shin]

Generally, in the Old Testament God punishes mortal sins with death immediately, to display their true consequences and communicate to the obstinate populous how serious the consequences are of mortal sins.

Hell, of course, being incomparably more serious than being stoned.

The Old Testament is about virtue in action in the exterior life, the New Testament about the interior life.

Now in these times, justice is delayed until people die for various other reasons than immediately executed justice – generally. Generally, not always.

And accompanying this delay in justice, this mercy, is the message of repentance – or a message of license, depending.

Worldly people think that the death penalty or physical punishment is evil, when in fact God endorses both, and executes both.

It is not about this at all, truly, that is besides the point. The point is, sin, is truly, truly, truly terrible, and people truly truly truly must wake up and be aware of its spiritual consequences. And so, in the Old Testament, the laws are written to make people aware of the spiritual consequences in a material way.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Generally, in the Old Testament God punishes mortal sins with death immediately, to display their true consequences and communicate to the obstinate populous how serious the consequences are of mortal sins.

Hell, of course, being incomparably more serious than being stoned.

The Old Testament is about virtue in action in the exterior life, the New Testament about the interior life.

Now in these times, justice is delayed until people die for various other reasons than immediately executed justice – generally. Generally, not always.

And accompanying this delay in justice, this mercy, is the message of repentance – or a message of license, depending.

Worldly people think that the death penalty or physical punishment is evil, when in fact God endorses both, and executes both.

It is not about this at all, truly, that is besides the point. The point is, sin, is truly, truly, truly terrible, and people truly truly truly must wake up and be aware of its spiritual consequences. And so, in the Old Testament, the laws are written to make people aware of the spiritual consequences in a material way.

This is a very good explanation of New Testament vs Old Testament thinking.

The thing is - when we sin we are removed from God. What is separation from God? Hell (or spiritual death). “The wages of sin are death”.

The Old Testament God did show mercy many, many times though. He relented a lot.

I love your analogy of the interior vs. exterior.

 

[SonofMonica]

Ok let me rephrase the question. Is it ever an act of justice, to throw rocks at a grown woman, bashing her in the head, face and body, until she dies from blows and/or loss of blood?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Ok let me rephrase the question. Is it ever an act of justice, to throw rocks at a grown woman, bashing her in the head, face and body, until she dies from blows and/or loss of blood?

Just curious, what is your stance on Capital Punishment?

In this day in age we do not stone people, but in the Old Testament times this was a common form of Capital Punishment. I agree that it is gruesome, but so are many other acts of punishment and torture practiced now and in the past. I don’t condone it, but it is a fact of life.

 

[Shin]

Ok let me rephrase the question. Is it ever an act of justice, to throw rocks at a grown woman, bashing her in the head, face and body, until she dies from blows and/or loss of blood?

Yes. It is.

Justice is a punishment that fits the crime. Because God is just, it has to be balanced, every crime has to be paid for. He is perfect justice. Absolutely, perfect, without flaw, justice.

We all comprehend justice normally, but we can be educated out of it, especially since God reserves a great deal of it for Himself, and forbids us to exercise it directly, instead telling us to forgive and leave the justice to Him. Because of this people nowadays are forgetting that justice exists at all.

Either God pays the crime for you, on the cross, Himself, or you pay for it. And He nevertheless demands you pay partially for it, even though He will forgive you the ultimate penalty of Hell if you repent.

Sentimentally we recoil from this kind of justice today because we are disturbed by the sight of something like this. But we would be more disturbed by the sight of Hell. We would also be more disturbed if we saw how sin truly was so terrible. But we do not see that, because we are separated from God. If we were closer to God, we would see how horrifying terrible sin is, and how in fact, there is nothing that could possibly be sufficient punishment for it.

The crucifixion is an example of punishment for sin, only in this case it is upon an innocent victim, Christ. Thus He makes suffering something of value and redemptive for us. Without justice, there is no reason for the crucifixion. With justice, we see the reason, except, this time, an innocent victim suffers.

For the guilty, they must be like the good thief on the cross and say, ‘I deserve this. Remember me in your kingdom.’

When we accept our guilt, and any punishment God desires, then we truly are reconciled with Him, because now we can come to realize the terrible nature of our pasts, as well as overcome them and become new people who no longer would ever intentionally sin, but are full of God.

Purgatory and Hell are far more painful and terrible than one thousand years of the most painful physical tortures that exist in this world. So, we must not understand this only in an intellectual way divorced from reality. That is how terrible sin is. That is how good God is, how pure and perfect He is, and how far we are from Him and how much we must come to realize we need to be with Him.

The world doesn’t understand this. But the true Christian does.

 

[Shin]

This is a very good explanation of New Testament vs Old Testament thinking.

The thing is - when we sin we are removed from God. What is separation from God? Hell (or spiritual death). “The wages of sin are death”.

The Old Testament God did show mercy many, many times though. He relented a lot.

I love your analogy of the interior vs. exterior.

Ah, it is beautiful isn’t it? It isn’t mine, it’s Lord’s… It is a paraphrase of the saint’s words:

‘Since the Old Testament is a symbol of the practice of the virtues, it brings the body’s activity into harmony with that of the intellect. Since the New Testament confers contemplation and spiritual knowledge, it illumines with divine intellections and gifts of grace the intellect that cleaves to it mystically. The Old Testament supplies the man of spiritual knowledge with the qualities of virtue; the New Testament endows the man practicing the virtues with the principles of true knowledge.’

St. Maximos the Confessor

Here is another one for thought:

'I have often thought of, and meditated on, the holy eagerness of the patriarchs who so sighed for the coming of the Messiah; and I felt confused, and was, moreover, so penetrated with grief, that I could scarcely refrain from weeping, so much was I ashamed to see the tepidity and indifference of these unhappy days.

For who amongst us is filled with so much joy in the fulfillment of this mystery, as did the saints of the Old Testament, at the promises which so called forth their longing desires?

Many, it is true, may rejoice at the celebration of this feast; but I am much afraid that it is less on account of the feast, than through vanity.’

St. Bernard of Clairvaux

 

[Lief_Erikson]

I love your posts here, Shin . Very well presented.

It is interesting that sexual sin’s evil is present to us all, visibly, everywhere, and yet people just can’t see how black it is. The emotional, psychological damage, the damage to feelings of self worth, the damage to one’s ability to keep having “steady relationships”, these are horrible results of premarital sex, because break-ups are so destructive to people. It also creates a devaluing of sex and of life itself, the product of sex. It creates an elevation of the self, and pride, because one is putting oneself and one’s pleasures first and true sacrificial devotion, true love, way down on the list. Furthermore, it has literally killed millions and millions of people through STDs, which often are brutal ways to die, and all because of sexual immorality.

Marital constancy represents faithfulness to God, because human marriage represents the Divine Marriage between Christ and the Church. Marital breakdown therefore represents idolatry, for it places the self above one’s beloved and refuses to offer sacrificial love, the love of the God Who is present in marriage.

In purely physical terms, the ramifications of sexual immorality are terrific. They are lethal, slaughtering millions, and they smash people psychologically, doing damage that it can take years or decades to recover from. They also create many other grievous sins, like pride, selfishness, ingratitude and disrespect for members of the opposite gender.

Thus it creates elevation of the self above God, ingratitude toward God and disrespect toward God, for one cannot have such attitudes toward the self or other humans while maintaining pure feelings toward God. It is an abominable sin that truly destroys souls.

The physical penalties that Catholic kingdoms established for sexual immorality during the Medieval Ages helped to often restrain the vice. While in certain times and places, sexual immorality became widespread, nonetheless, overall it was much, much less frequent than it is today. There’s a reason why the arrival of syphilis is first recorded in Christian kingdoms at the end of the Medieval Ages, and the number of STDs only multiplied from then on through the removal of laws and moral restrictions in society.

It’s bizarre that today, the evil ramifications of sexual immorality are more obvious than ever before, yet people are more oblivious to the sin’s evil than ever before! I think part of the reason for this is that the nations have ceased to use laws against sexual immorality to keep it in line.

Idolatry, witchcraft, sexual immorality, and today even murder through abortion and in places euthenasia, and sometimes cannibalism through stem cell research, have become legalized, all since the end of the time when kingdoms modeled their laws on the basis of the morality the Church declared to be true. When they separated themselves from the Church, they separated themselves from truth, for truth is in the Church, and the absence of the Church is the absence of truth. Enlightenment philosophers and Protestant heretics decided to base laws on the “will of the people” rather than on the “will of God,” which the Medieval kingdoms had built their laws on by following the Vatican’s beliefs.

Today, modern society is praying a terrible price, all obliviously. Old Testament Law, which is pure justice, has become intolerable to modern man.

Governments have a responsibility, though, to govern justly (Rom. 13:1-5), even while they also have a responsibility to govern with mercy (John 8:1-11). “Justice” is despicable in a world of sin and license.

 

[SonofMonica]

Yes. It is.

Justice is a punishment that fits the crime. Because God is just, it has to be balanced, every crime has to be paid for. He is perfect justice. Absolutely, perfect, without flaw, justice.

We all comprehend justice normally, but we can be educated out of it, especially since God reserves a great deal of it for Himself, and forbids us to exercise it directly, instead telling us to forgive and leave the justice to Him. Because of this people nowadays are forgetting that justice exists at all.

Either God pays the crime for you, on the cross, Himself, or you pay for it. And He nevertheless demands you pay partially for it, even though He will forgive you the ultimate penalty of Hell if you repent.

Sentimentally we recoil from this kind of justice today because we are disturbed by the sight of something like this. But we would be more disturbed by the sight of Hell. We would also be more disturbed if we saw how sin truly was so terrible. But we do not see that, because we are separated from God. If we were closer to God, we would see how horrifying terrible sin is, and how in fact, there is nothing that could possibly be sufficient punishment for it.

The crucifixion is an example of punishment for sin, only in this case it is upon an innocent victim, Christ. Thus He makes suffering something of value and redemptive for us. Without justice, there is no reason for the crucifixion. With justice, we see the reason, except, this time, an innocent victim suffers.

For the guilty, they must be like the good thief on the cross and say, ‘I deserve this. Remember me in your kingdom.’

When we accept our guilt, and any punishment God desires, then we truly are reconciled with Him, because now we can come to realize the terrible nature of our pasts, as well as overcome them and become new people who no longer would ever intentionally sin, but are full of God.

Purgatory and Hell are far more painful and terrible than one thousand years of the most painful physical tortures that exist in this world. So, we must not understand this only in an intellectual way divorced from reality. That is how terrible sin is. That is how good God is, how pure and perfect He is, and how far we are from Him and how much we must come to realize we need to be with Him.

The world doesn’t understand this. But the true Christian does.

Okay, so theological wordplay and excesses aside, the is how I perceive your statement about how you view justice and mercy. The normal state of things is as follows: before 33 A.D., or thereabouts, if a woman has premarital sex, you are to throw rocks at her until she bleeds out and dies with her brains pouring out as mush into the street. But since 33 A.D., we should try to hold back from throwing rocks at her, because God can burn her with fire so that she can be as good as he is? And because God killed his son who didn’t do anything wrong, it adds value and redemptive qualities to burning the woman and torturing us all? And all of this shows us how good God is and should make us want to be with Him?

 

[Shin]

Okay, so theological wordplay and excesses aside, the is how I perceive your statement about how you view justice and mercy. The normal state of things is as follows: before 33 A.D., or thereabouts, if a woman has premarital sex, you are to throw rocks at her until she bleeds out and dies with her brains pouring out as mush into the street. But since 33 A.D., we should try to hold back from throwing rocks at her, because God can burn her with fire so that she can be as good as he is? And because God killed his son who didn’t do anything wrong, it adds value and redemptive qualities to burning the woman and torturing us all? And all of this shows us how good God is and should make us want to be with Him?

I don’t undestand this ‘theological wordplay’ statement if you are speaking about what I wrote, it is a strict statement with logic balancing absolutes that truly do exist, because God exists and embodies, is, these absolutes.

He is absolute love, absolute justice, absolute mercy, etc. and He combines all these attributes perfectly so that all are expressed properly.

If you judge the penalties He Himself enacts, I have to ask, ‘So, are you judging God?’

As God is God… then you accept what His will is, and try to understand it, you don’t judge Him, it’s not your place. If you have difficulties accepting that God is God… that is another story… and we go to how fundamentally He has revealed Himself through the Church, the miracles, His Word, etc.

He judged this just punishment.

If you want me to try to present it in a way that is sentimentally appealing, I confess that is not my area of expertise, there -are- other people here who are very good at this.

I’m good at telling truth, not helping people to change their misordered emotions to accept it. So often I hesitate to even post. I’m sorry, that’s just not my talent at the moment, though I do try at times.

If you want to try to understand, instead of using charged language and showing you emotionally have problems accepting it… Put your emotions aside. Look at the truth. Whatever it is, that is what emotionally you have to learn to understand. The emotions do not determine the truth, the truth determines the truth.

Emotionally one can accept yes, a death that is brutal as a punishment for sin. We can comprehend it, if we understand the reasons for it.

So think about the logic and understand it. This isn’t something based on our subjective emotions. God has revealed Himself. What He says, is revealed truth. If He says, go here, you go here, go there, you go there, and if you do the opposite… He is God, and you are not, do you expect to get away with it?

Adam and Eve did not. No one ever has.

The comfort in revelation is that we know how the world works finally. And we understand the reasons why we feel certain ways and why we should feel certain ways, instead of others.

I can try to put it emotionally if you want to empathize with God… First He shows us, His love on the cross… which must not be denigrated… He shows He is willing to suffer far more than we have ever suffered… to show us His love… For we suffer only for our own sins, and that, only partially… But He suffered for the sins of many… not just one… but the sins of the human race itself…

And He did this both as Man and God.

The cross if you empathize with it, is the answer to everything… The Passion of Christ.

If you think on this, truly think on this, it is the answer to everything.

I can also reemphasize, if you truly saw how terrible sin was, no penalty would be enough. You would willingly suffer far more because you yourself could not bear the guilt of it in the face of how terribly good, innocent and beautiful and deserving of all love God is.

We all know what guilt is… and we know how to feel more guilty if we offend someone who is truly innocent and good… and undeserving of the slightest harm… and then if we magnify that in our hearts with the consideration of His infinity… and what that means to our love… that our love must have the greatest emotion… and respond in the greatest way…

Then we understand how happy we would be to be able to expiate in some small way any guilt and be forgiven by God for it… to be able to in His love be free from all hinderances…

These penalties are ultimately for the sin against God, more than for any harm done to human society, though that is part of it – He is with the person sinned against… it is the sin against God that is the true reason for such punishments.

The harm to human society is revealing the spiritual evil behind it, more than the reason why there is the punishment… it is part of the punishment itself, rather than the cause for it. It is a punishment and it is due to the separation from God, the sin itself.

Heaven is infinite. Earth is brief. What we suffer here is nothing compared to Heaven, where if we suffered for God’s sake it is to our glory.

 

[CWBetts]

You cannot divorce Deuteronomy from the rest of the Old Testament. As a refresher: In Genesis, God made covenants with Adam, Noah, and Abraham. The Abrahamic covenant was extended to Israel (Jacob) through the son of promise, Isaac. Jacob, through his two wives and their servants birthed 12 sons (Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Asher, Issachar, Napphtali, Dan, Gad, Benjamin, and Joseph) and a daughter (Dinah). Joseph’s brothers sold him into slavery in Egypt, but years later famine reunited the large family. After the death of Joseph, Israel started to become a great nation, and were enslaved in Egypt for 400 years, and God raised up a prophet, Moses to deliver His people from bondage. After some fairly nasty plagues, Pharaoh let the Israelites go, but soon changed his mind, and God drowned the Egyptian army in the Red Sea. Eventually, the mass of Israelites made it to Mt. Sinai, where God delivers the Ten Commandments to Moses. After the commandments are given, Moses goes back up the mountain, and the Israelites, through the work of Aaron, make a golden calf, build an altar and offer sacrifices to it. Big mistake. Also part of the whole celebration was basically an orgy. Moses intercedes for Israel, passing the test. I mean it isn’t like God forgot about the promise to Abraham. Next big event, spies are sent into the promised land and when they come back, two of the 12 (Joshua and Caleb) are like, “Hey, lets go! We can do this!” Unfortunately the other 10 are like “ARE YOU CRAZY?!?! They are gonna kill us!!!” God, displeased by this unbelief says “Fine! Joshua, Caleb, you to can go, but everybody else in the whole nation is gonna die first” So begins the wilderness wanderings that we find in Numbers. In the book of Numbers, thy rebel 9 times! And when they go against God, it is always the same three basic things: Sex, rebellion against authority, and idol worship. So you see when we get to the Law in Deuteronomy, what carries the death penalty? Idolatry, sexual sin, and rebellion against authority. I wrote all this to say that the reason that the death penalty is laid down for these things, is because those are the things they wouldn’t stop doing! A more detailed study of the Pentateuch will show that the death penalty was exacted for breaking covenant vows, and it was this same death curse God took on himself when Yeshua Ben Yusef (That’s Jesus to you and me) became accursed as he hung on a cross. That is why the penalties seem harsh. Israel kept falling into the same sins over and over again, so harsh measures were needed.

 

[SonofMonica]

Okay that’s a lot of words. Let me try the simple question again another way: If all we had was the Old Testament, (1) would you throw rocks at a woman who gave into lust until her face split open and her internal organs were visible as she choked up blood and died in front of her family; and if so, (2) would you feel comfortable that you were carrying out the work of the loving, creator God in so doing?

And a side bar question: do you believe someone can be a faithful Catholic if he believes that God himself did not (f)actually tell the Jewish people to do such a thing?

 

[Shin]

You know, you should actually read what people say to you and consider it rather than asking the same question over and over again to get the same answer over and over again.

It’s rather rude and actually you’re not going to get what you need if you’re just here to pontificate rather than learn, step into understanding rather than condemn outside – either here or in RCIA.

You’re on a forum. Read what people say, and treat it politely. That is the Christian thing to do.

Death is never pretty. Why do you think people die in the first place? The entire human race only dies because of sin.

Physical pain is not a moral evil. Sin is moral evil. Physical pain happens for good reasons and evil reasons. For justice’s sake, for sin’s sake, for medical reasons, for criminal reasons.

If you’re in a war, and you’re a surgeon you find yourself amputating limbs with saws. It’s not pretty.

But death is not the end. We live eternally afterwards. Its pains are small compared to that of sin.

So, you lack perspective. If you were a Jew back then, would you do it?

We aren’t Jews, we’re Christians. But if we lived back then, we would be Jews, we would be different people, and we would have to do what God tells us to do. Whatever that may be.

I for one would do what God told me to do. If God doesn’t allow you to forgive a penalty but orders you to execute justice, then you must do what He orders.

Back then, the laws were what they were, and people did not have authority to change them. The laws are different now, and we still don’t have the authority to change them. I am a person in a soft country where sin is treated lightly, and pleasure virtue and pain vice, which is a great error.

If God tells you to sentence someone to death, you do it. If God tells you to forgive someone the sentence, you do it.

What did Abraham do with Isaac? And where would he be if he hadn’t?

No, you are not a ‘faithful Catholic’ if you do not believe that when scripture says, ‘God said it’ or ‘God orders this’ He said it and He ordered it. Faith is just that – faith in God and His Word.

From the sound of it, to you physical pain is always morally evil. Well… it isn’t. I really could say more but I won’t since you aren’t taking it seriously enough to even think about and respond properly.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Okay that’s a lot of words. Let me try the simple question again another way: If all we had was the Old Testament, (1) would you throw rocks at a woman who gave into lust until her face split open and her internal organs were visible as she choked up blood and died in front of her family; and if so, (2) would you feel comfortable that you were carrying out the work of the loving, creator God in so doing?

Yes. You do not understand the gravity of sexual immorality. You really, really don’t understand how serious sexual sins are. That is why you can’t agree.

And a side bar question: do you believe someone can be a faithful Catholic if he believes that God himself did not (f)actually tell the Jewish people to do such a thing?

There is not, to my knowledge, any infallible Church teaching on this. You do, on the other hand, have to believe in the reality of an eternal Hell, and in the reality of Christ having died to save us from our sins. These are dogmas.

 

[SonofMonica]

You know, you should actually read what people say to you and consider it rather than asking the same question over and over again to get the same answer over and over again.

It’s rather rude and actually you’re not going to get what you need if you’re just here to pontificate rather than learn, step into understanding rather than condemn outside – either here or in RCIA.

You’re on a forum. Read what people say, and treat it politely. That is the Christian thing to do.

Death is never pretty. Why do you think people die in the first place? The entire human race only dies because of sin.

Physical pain is not a moral evil. Sin is moral evil. Physical pain happens for good reasons and evil reasons. For justice’s sake, for sin’s sake, for medical reasons, for criminal reasons.

If you’re in a war, and you’re a surgeon you find yourself amputating limbs with saws. It’s not pretty.

But death is not the end. We live eternally afterwards. Its pains are small compared to that of sin.

So, you lack perspective. If you were a Jew back then, would you do it?

We aren’t Jews, we’re Christians. But if we lived back then, we would be Jews, we would be different people, and we would have to do what God tells us to do. Whatever that may be.

I for one would do what God told me to do. If God doesn’t allow you to forgive a penalty but orders you to execute justice, then you must do what He orders.

Back then, the laws were what they were, and people did not have authority to change them. The laws are different now, and we still don’t have the authority to change them. I am a person in a soft country where sin is treated lightly, and pleasure virtue and pain vice, which is a great error.

If God tells you to sentence someone to death, you do it. If God tells you to forgive someone the sentence, you do it.

What did Abraham do with Isaac? And where would he be if he hadn’t?

No, you are not a ‘faithful Catholic’ if you do not believe that when scripture says, ‘God said it’ or ‘God orders this’ He said it and He ordered it. Faith is just that – faith in God and His Word.

From the sound of it, to you physical pain is always morally evil. Well… it isn’t. I really could say more but I won’t since you aren’t taking it seriously enough to even think about and respond properly.

I’ve read every word. And your lengthy posts make it seem like you’re being apologetic for having to say that you would indeed stone the woman. I never said what I would do. I merely tried to put the situation in real, graphic terms and put the question to you. You’ve finally answered it, but seem insistent upon couching it in terms that make you feel comfortable with what obviously makes you queasy. I never asked you to justify it one way or the other.

As to believing the Bible, certainly you would agree with me that there is a longstanding history of textual interpretation in the Catholic Church that does not always necessitate a literal reading of scripture, wouldn’t you? I take it that you see it necessary to the Catholic faith that God must have actually told Jews to stone women. Did the Old Testament God lack the attribute of mercy? Did he change from Old Testament to New? He is supposed to be the same yesterday, today and forever. Was Jesus’s message a new message, or do you think the Jews just weren’t getting it?

I’m not pontificating. I’m asking. Haven’t seen any of this in the Creeds, so I figure it’s open for discussion.

 

[SonofMonica]

Yes. You do not understand the gravity of sexual immorality. You really, really don’t understand how serious sexual sins are. That is why you can’t agree.

How do you know what I understand or agree with? I asked questions about others’ understanding and opinions. I never revealed my own. This is a message board with a lot of diverse people on it, and not every tough-sounding question is coming from a person who is uneducated in or opposed to the Catholic faith. Please do not confuse the fact that I am in RCIA for a lack of in depth instruction in and/or understanding of Christian and Catholic-specific theology. I was asked last Sunday by my Parish to help teach a class on the Church Fathers, for example.

There is not, to my knowledge, any infallible Church teaching on this. You do, on the other hand, have to believe in the reality of an eternal Hell, and in the reality of Christ having died to save us from our sins. These are dogmas.

I agree. The lack of said teaching is why I feel comfortable trying to spark discussion. And also why I don’t get the “You don’t understand theology” type remarks and other accusatory diatribes being hurled at me for asking questions for discussion.