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Deuteronomy 30:11-14 supposedly makes jesus death uncessary or contradicts paul
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historyfan81
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it says rigth there in his post Deut. 27:26, and paul misquoting it in gal 3
Galatians 3:10-11
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition
10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no man is justified before God by the law; for “He who through faith is righteous shall live”;[a]
26Cursed is every man that continues not in all the words of this law to do them: and all the people shall say, So be it.
Deuteronomy 27
Brenton Septuagint Translation
I don’t see the misquote.
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition
10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no man is justified before God by the law; for “He who through faith is righteous shall live”;[a]
26Cursed is every man that continues not in all the words of this law to do them: and all the people shall say, So be it.
Deuteronomy 27
Brenton Septuagint Translation
I don’t see the misquote.
Benjamin D. Sommer points out in Revelation and Authority (p. 133; see also here and a few follow-up posts), that the word “all” is not in the Hebrew versions of Deuteronomy that we know of. It is, however, found in some manuscripts of the Samaritan Pentateuch and of the Greek translation (Septuagint) of Deuteronomy.
Paul, as was his custom, was likely working off of the Greek version that read “all.”
Paul, as was his custom, was likely working off of the Greek version that read “all.”
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historyfan81
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the rabbi says in the Hebrew that Cursed is every man that continues not in all the words of this law to do them: and all the people shall say, So be it.
all was interpolation made by paul and then added to the bible by later chirstians as the orignal Hebrew doesnt contain the word for all in the text he even says other comentaries agree :
"Does Deut. 27:26, from which the Gal. 3 writer supposedly quotes in verse 10, really say that G-d will curse mankind if he does not “continue in “ALL” that is written in the Law.” The answer is simply “NO”!
In the Tyndale Commentary on Galatians on page 96 it says “Now it is quite true that the Hebrew Bible does not have the word “all” in this verse; it simply says “Cursed be he who does not confirm (uphold) the words of this Law, to perform them.”
Let us see how the verse is written in the Hebrew:
Deu 27:26 [ארור אשׁר לא־יקים את־דברי התורה־הזאת לעשׂות אותם ואמר כל־העם אמן׃ ]"
all was interpolation made by paul and then added to the bible by later chirstians as the orignal Hebrew doesnt contain the word for all in the text he even says other comentaries agree :
"Does Deut. 27:26, from which the Gal. 3 writer supposedly quotes in verse 10, really say that G-d will curse mankind if he does not “continue in “ALL” that is written in the Law.” The answer is simply “NO”!
In the Tyndale Commentary on Galatians on page 96 it says “Now it is quite true that the Hebrew Bible does not have the word “all” in this verse; it simply says “Cursed be he who does not confirm (uphold) the words of this Law, to perform them.”
Let us see how the verse is written in the Hebrew:
Deu 27:26 [ארור אשׁר לא־יקים את־דברי התורה־הזאת לעשׂות אותם ואמר כל־העם אמן׃ ]"
I get what you’re saying but the septuagint is the Catholic church’s bible.
Septuagint is also where we get a clear understanding of the Virgin conceiving Jesus conceiving.
the Septuagint version of the Bible, a Greek translation of the Old Testament made several centuries before Christ. It was translated by Jewish scholars for use by Greek-speaking Jews, mainly in Alexandria.
Greek scriptures were in wide use by the time of Jesus and Paul of Tarsus (early Christianity) because most Christian proselytes, God-fearers, and other gentile sympathizers of Hellenistic Judaism could not read Hebrew. The text of the Greek Old Testament is quoted more often than the original Hebrew Bible text in the Greek New Testament[10][4] - Wikipedia
Jewish use
See also: Development of the Hebrew Bible canon
The pre-Christian Jews Philo and Josephus considered the Septuagint equal to the Hebrew text.[15][48] Manuscripts of the Septuagint have been found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, and were thought to have been in use among Jews at the time.
Several factors led most Jews to abandon the Septuagint around the second century CE. The earliest gentile Christians used the Septuagint out of necessity, since it was the only Greek version of the Bible and most (if not all) of these early non-Jewish Christians could not read Hebrew. The association of the Septuagint with a rival religion may have made it suspect in the eyes of the newer generation of Jews and Jewish scholars.[26] Jews instead used Hebrew or Aramaic Targum manuscripts later compiled by the Masoretes and authoritative Aramaic translations, such as those of Onkelos and Rabbi Yonathan ben Uziel.[49]
Perhaps most significant for the Septuagint, as distinct from other Greek versions, was that the Septuagint began to lose Jewish sanction after differences between it and contemporary Hebrew scriptures were discovered. Even Greek-speaking Jews tended to prefer other Jewish versions in Greek (such as the translation by Aquila), which seemed to be more concordant with contemporary Hebrew texts.[26] - Wiki
Septuagint is also where we get a clear understanding of the Virgin conceiving Jesus conceiving.
the Septuagint version of the Bible, a Greek translation of the Old Testament made several centuries before Christ. It was translated by Jewish scholars for use by Greek-speaking Jews, mainly in Alexandria.
Greek scriptures were in wide use by the time of Jesus and Paul of Tarsus (early Christianity) because most Christian proselytes, God-fearers, and other gentile sympathizers of Hellenistic Judaism could not read Hebrew. The text of the Greek Old Testament is quoted more often than the original Hebrew Bible text in the Greek New Testament[10][4] - Wikipedia
Jewish use
See also: Development of the Hebrew Bible canon
The pre-Christian Jews Philo and Josephus considered the Septuagint equal to the Hebrew text.[15][48] Manuscripts of the Septuagint have been found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, and were thought to have been in use among Jews at the time.
Several factors led most Jews to abandon the Septuagint around the second century CE. The earliest gentile Christians used the Septuagint out of necessity, since it was the only Greek version of the Bible and most (if not all) of these early non-Jewish Christians could not read Hebrew. The association of the Septuagint with a rival religion may have made it suspect in the eyes of the newer generation of Jews and Jewish scholars.[26] Jews instead used Hebrew or Aramaic Targum manuscripts later compiled by the Masoretes and authoritative Aramaic translations, such as those of Onkelos and Rabbi Yonathan ben Uziel.[49]
Perhaps most significant for the Septuagint, as distinct from other Greek versions, was that the Septuagint began to lose Jewish sanction after differences between it and contemporary Hebrew scriptures were discovered. Even Greek-speaking Jews tended to prefer other Jewish versions in Greek (such as the translation by Aquila), which seemed to be more concordant with contemporary Hebrew texts.[26] - Wiki
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historyfan81
Guest
oh i know again i dont belive in any of what the rabbi said but i even have my own courter argument of the original text didnt say all and just said : Accursed is one who will not uphold the words of this Torah, to perform them. And the entire people shall say, Amen.
that can still be interpreted as all i mean if i tell you uphold the word of the law does that mean you dont have to follow all of the law ? of course not , that is why the greek versions translated it as all not but the rabbi anticipating this continued to say in the rabbi says that we must see it in its jewish context(that confirms his view ) and that the Septuagint is not reliable so what would the response to that be?
that can still be interpreted as all i mean if i tell you uphold the word of the law does that mean you dont have to follow all of the law ? of course not , that is why the greek versions translated it as all not but the rabbi anticipating this continued to say in the rabbi says that we must see it in its jewish context(that confirms his view ) and that the Septuagint is not reliable so what would the response to that be?
I’d ask why and try to show it’s historical useand that the Septuagint is not reliable so what would the response to that be?
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fhansen
Guest
Paul says in Rom 2 that we’ll be judged by the law, even though we know it cannot justify us but really only convicts us of sin (Rom 3:20). The problem, Jesus revealed, is that it’s possible to obey the law completely without actually being just or righteous, because we can still be unclean on the inside while fulfilling the law in a merely external and legalistic manner. He blasts certain Parisees for being “white-washed tombs”, clean on the outside while still filthy within. Once the inside is clean the outside will follow, for the right reason now. But the law, as Paul tells us in Rom 7, is nonetheless right, and holy, good, and spiritual. But we’re not spiritual; we must enter relationship or communion with God in order to become united to and led By Him. Then He places His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts as per the New Covenant prophecy of Jer 31:32-34. Then we’re “under grace” rather than “under the law” even though the law must still be fulfilled, but with grace now, rather than by my own efforts alone as if I possessed righteousness apart from God.
The law, it can be said, describes righteousness for man, but love, OTOH, defines it. The only way to truly fulfill the law IOW is by fulfilling the greatest commandments, because love fulfills the law (Rom 13:10). And this kind of love is only attainable to the extent that we fellowship, that we commune, with its Source. So the law must still be fulfilled by us, and can be, but only to the extent that we enter and remain in this vital relationship with God, established via faith, that man was made for and which he’s lost, dead, existing in an unjust and disordered state without. “Apart from Me you can do nothing”. (John 15:5) Adam thought otherwise, that he didn’t need God, but when the time was ripe Jesus now reveals and reconciles us with the true God.
As the Church teaches regarding the “particular judgment”, quoting St John of the Cross, “At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”
The law, it can be said, describes righteousness for man, but love, OTOH, defines it. The only way to truly fulfill the law IOW is by fulfilling the greatest commandments, because love fulfills the law (Rom 13:10). And this kind of love is only attainable to the extent that we fellowship, that we commune, with its Source. So the law must still be fulfilled by us, and can be, but only to the extent that we enter and remain in this vital relationship with God, established via faith, that man was made for and which he’s lost, dead, existing in an unjust and disordered state without. “Apart from Me you can do nothing”. (John 15:5) Adam thought otherwise, that he didn’t need God, but when the time was ripe Jesus now reveals and reconciles us with the true God.
As the Church teaches regarding the “particular judgment”, quoting St John of the Cross, “At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”
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Vico
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There were justified persons in Hades that were freed when Jesus descended there.…
Deuteronomy 30:11-14 : Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.
…
Catechism of the Catholic Church
633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.480 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”:481 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.483
634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead."484 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus’ messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ’s redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.
480 Cf. Phil 2:10; Acts 2:24; Rev 1:18; Eph 4:9; Pss 6:6; 88:11-13.
481 Cf. Ps 89:49; 1 Sam 28:19; Ezek 32:17-32; Lk 16:22-26.
482 Roman Catechism I, 6, 3.
483 Cf. Council of Rome (745): DS 587; Benedict XII, Cum dudum (1341): DS 1011; Clement VI, Super quibusdam (1351): DS 1077; Council of Toledo IV (625): DS 485; Mt 27:52-53.
484 1 Pet 4:6.
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fhansen
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And the Council of Trent, session 6, said this:
Canon 1.
If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law,[110] without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.
Canon 18.
If anyone says that the commandments of God are, even for one that is justified and constituted in grace,[121] impossible to observe, let him be anathema.
Canon 1.
If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law,[110] without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.
Canon 18.
If anyone says that the commandments of God are, even for one that is justified and constituted in grace,[121] impossible to observe, let him be anathema.
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meltzerboy2
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The Jewish argument is NOT that we are saved by the Law. In other words, obedience to the Law is not for the purpose of salvation according to Judaism, at least not in the same sense as Christian salvation. The Law is obeyed by (some) Jews for two other reasons: one is that Gd commanded obedience, and the other is that the Law, coming from Gd, is the highest good because it gives us a blueprint concerning how to lead a meaningful, purposeful life in our relationship to Gd and to others. Further, according to Judaism, it is not an all-or-none situation. That is, one need not start one’s faith journey by total obedience to the Law. It is the effort that leads to incremental improvement that is most important.
Insofar as sacrifice is concerned, particularly blood sacrifice, that was NEVER meant to atone for intentional sins, only sins that are unintentional. Intentional sins, on the other hand, must be atoned for by making amends toward those we have wronged, changing our behavior toward others, as well as by prayer and charity.
So, from a Jewish perspective, the whole premise of your question is misguided and inapplicable to Judaism.
Insofar as sacrifice is concerned, particularly blood sacrifice, that was NEVER meant to atone for intentional sins, only sins that are unintentional. Intentional sins, on the other hand, must be atoned for by making amends toward those we have wronged, changing our behavior toward others, as well as by prayer and charity.
So, from a Jewish perspective, the whole premise of your question is misguided and inapplicable to Judaism.
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Benadam
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I may be way off base with this as far as it helping
I don’t think God is teaching about how difficult or not it is to observe the Law. That’s relative.
He’s teaching that the law is natural to man. Living near the law is living near our true selves…
I think it’s a mistake to make this passage a measure of the effort it takes. to obey the Law.
I think God is teaching about the nature of man. That it’s not difficult when it’s near to us.
I don’t think God is teaching about how difficult or not it is to observe the Law. That’s relative.
He’s teaching that the law is natural to man. Living near the law is living near our true selves…
I think it’s a mistake to make this passage a measure of the effort it takes. to obey the Law.
I think God is teaching about the nature of man. That it’s not difficult when it’s near to us.
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historyfan81
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i dont think jews or protestans who observe the torah care about those explinations.
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fhansen
Guest
And? By the same token that wouldn’t necessarily matter to Catholics.
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historyfan81
Guest
thats kinda of what the rabbi said only that he was more condesending that salvation in judaisim is based
The Law is obeyed Jews for obedience commanded obedience, it says how to lead a meaningful, purposeful life in our relationship to Gd and to others. Further, according to Judaism, it is not an all-or-none situation
which as i mentioned in exodus it does say he that doesnt keep the world of the torah and the greek version say all so some jews didnt interept it as all but some did .
as for salvation yes i did oversymplfy i should have said jesus sacrife would not have made sense based on how we can obtian salvation in judaisim via redemption loving god follwing the law etc.
The Law is obeyed Jews for obedience commanded obedience, it says how to lead a meaningful, purposeful life in our relationship to Gd and to others. Further, according to Judaism, it is not an all-or-none situation
which as i mentioned in exodus it does say he that doesnt keep the world of the torah and the greek version say all so some jews didnt interept it as all but some did .
as for salvation yes i did oversymplfy i should have said jesus sacrife would not have made sense based on how we can obtian salvation in judaisim via redemption loving god follwing the law etc.
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historyfan81
Guest
if they are arguing from scripture it should since the bible has authority in catholisim while the council doesnt in judaisim.
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historyfan81
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well not all jews but some say >
The Septuagint is a Jewish translation which was made mainly in Alexandria. Its Hebrew source differed greatly from the other textual witnesses (the Masoretic text, the Targumim, the Peshitta, the Vulgate, and many of the Qumran texts)… is important as a source for early exegesis, and this translation also forms the basis for many elements in the New Testament. (p. 134)
So according to Tov, the Septuagint (or at least the core part) was a Jewish translation, though the text it was based on differed from the Masoretic text in some places.
so its less reliable than the latter.
The Septuagint is a Jewish translation which was made mainly in Alexandria. Its Hebrew source differed greatly from the other textual witnesses (the Masoretic text, the Targumim, the Peshitta, the Vulgate, and many of the Qumran texts)… is important as a source for early exegesis, and this translation also forms the basis for many elements in the New Testament. (p. 134)
So according to Tov, the Septuagint (or at least the core part) was a Jewish translation, though the text it was based on differed from the Masoretic text in some places.
so its less reliable than the latter.
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fhansen
Guest
My point was only that Catholicism decides for itself the truth regarding God and man’s relationship to Him.
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