Deutrocanonical Books-Apologetics

[Wisdom]

The comparison makes no sense. Paul got revelation directly from Jesus. His advice is given as from one of the greatest Apostles to ever live and his wisdom should be heeded.

The Maccabees author plainly admits he might make a mistake, care to quote any other vessels used for God Breathed scripture that make a similar statement?

Charity given to the poor does NOT purge sin!

Tobias 4:11, “For alms deliver from all sin, and from death, and will not suffer the soul to go into darkness.”
Tobias12:9, “For alms delivereth from death, and the same is that which purgeth away sins, and maketh to find mercy and life everlasting.”

You dont actually believe this heresy, do you?

OH boy we repeating ourselves aren’t we a good clue its time for me to stop participating in your talking points I already went over this in this very thread this very notion of charity helping ones sanctification is taught in acts look it up in the 400 odd post we have in this thread I am tired of this thread and quitting it as the same things are brought up over and over despite our answers you just ignore the answers and go back to the talking points as if we never presented the answers I am not going to do this insanity anymnore. You either beleive the church was given the authrority by Jesus Christ to write distribute and canonize the scriptures or you think that someone the church had no authority for 60 years until the scriptures were written and then everyone just suddenly knew which scriptures were valid all this of course is unhistorical.

 

[Wisdom]

What I find dishonest is the insistance by many that Carthage and Hippo were binding on the entire church when a long line of Church Fathers are produced Including the New Catholic Encyc stating the opposite!

The Luther Bible contains those books you claim he threw out!

Did you say something about being dishonest.

Well you won’t find that dishonesty with me you can read this 400 post thread going in cricles no where did I state Carthage and Hippo wer binding on the entire church not that really matters as you don’t accept Trent which is clearly binding and still reject it so why you bring this up as a talking point is to avoid the issue. What I have said is that Hippo and Carthage set the regular fiedei of the church and set the regular canon of the west and how the regualr canon was reproduced in the west until the Reformation. THere was no distinction between the books of the OT until Luther made such a distincion in his Bible which of course made a disctinction between not only the OT duteros but the NT duteros as well something you dishonestly leave out.

I never said Luther through out the books from his Bible I said he though them out from the the regualar canon of the OT which he did contrary to Hippo and Carthage and Florence which all had the book in the regular OT without distinction. And you left out again the seperated from his canon the NT dueteros into a different section form the rest of the NT something Hippo and Carthage and Florence did not suggest eitehr. This was an innovation on how the Bible was presented in not only the NT but the OT as well. But you failed to recognize this and try to fave it both ways and of course are dishonest unlike Westcott and Luther who have a distinction made between the NT books as they view the Church to not have the authority to have such a late ruling on the NT canon. Your denial of accecpting the Councils of Hippo, Carthage and Florence NT canon and then rejecting the very same councils finding on the OT is hypcoritical to say the least and no matter what you say you cannot reconcile this. WE have gone in circles and you have repeated yourself a hundred times by now with the same objections which we already answered but you failed to read the answer and just keep blabbing the same objections. Your accusing me of dishonsty is quite funny as you rely on the entire Thesis of Webster and White and not your own thinking. You make up lies about my argument in a way I never presented I never said Luther threw out the books from His Bible I said he through it out from the canon which he did and that is a big difference that you don’t think carefully on but blab the talking points of Webster. SInce I am not going to be around anymore I will leave you with words of WISDOM think for yourself and stop obeying the commands of Webster and White who have filled your head with deception.

 

[Mickey]

The importance of the Glossa ordinaria relative to the issue of the Apocrypha is seen from the statements in the Preface to the overall work. It repeats the judgment of Jerome that the Church permits the reading of the Apocryphal books only for devotion and instruction in manners, but that they have no authority for concluding controversies in matters of faith.

Cut and paste straight from the website of James White.

 

[Mickey]

Kaycee’s latest attack on Tobias and Maccabees was a pure “cut N paste” from CARM - which I discovered earlier today.

Yup. It is quite evident.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Speaking of which I just received the Book: Why Catholics Bibles are Bigger by Gary G. Michuta. So far I am impressed. He refute everything from every claim that Protestant Apologists to discredit the Deutrocanonical Books. The Book my fellow Catholics is a best Catholic Apologetic Books for defending the Deutrocanonical Books.

 

[MrS]

Speaking of which I just received the Book: Why Catholics Bibles are Bigger by Gary G. Michuta. So far I am impressed. He refute everything from every claim that Protestant Apologists to discredit the Deutrocanonical Books. The Book my fellow Catholics is a best Catholic Apologetic Books for defending the Deutrocanonical Books.

You might also consider his DVD or CD set on the debate with Mr/Dr White on this topic…what a contrast in beliefs and approach to defending those beliefs.

I am thinking I should pen a book “Why Catholic Apologists are Bigger”… and it would lead with Gary… I think he must be 6’6’’ and built like a lineman the Detroit Lions wish they had.

.

 

[Janet_S]

You might also consider his DVD or CD set on the debate with Mr/Dr White on this topic…what a contrast in beliefs and approach to defending those beliefs.

I am thinking I should pen a book “Why Catholic Apologists are Bigger”… and it would lead with Gary… I think he must be 6’6’’ and built like a lineman the Detroit Lions wish they had.

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I have something else to plug. Next week Patty Bonds will be on the Journey Home. Patty is a convert to the CC and is Mr/Dr James White’s sister.

If you’re not familiar with the Journey Home, it is a program on the EWTN cable station. Next week Patty’s conversion story will be aired Monday at 8:00 p.m., Tuesday at 10:00 a.m., Wednesday at 1:00 p.m., and Saturday at 11:00 p.m. You can probably download the show from the EWTN website as well. Her story is here too:
bringyou.to/apologetics/s2.htm

 

[Nancie_Lew]

I have something else to plug. Next week Patty Bonds will be on the Journey Home. Patty is a convert to the CC and is Mr/Dr James White’s sister.

If you’re not familiar with the Journey Home, it is a program on the EWTN cable station. Next week Patty’s conversion story will be aired Monday at 8:00 p.m., Tuesday at 10:00 a.m., Wednesday at 1:00 p.m., and Saturday at 11:00 p.m. You can probably download the show from the EWTN website as well. Her story is here too:
bringyou.to/apologetics/s2.htm

What does this have to do with the Deutrocanonical books?

 

[Nancie_Lew]

Speaking of which I just received the Book: Why Catholics Bibles are Bigger by Gary G. Michuta. So far I am impressed. He refute everything from every claim that Protestant Apologists to discredit the Deutrocanonical Books. The Book my fellow Catholics is a best Catholic Apologetic Books for defending the Deutrocanonical Books.

Can you tell me the names of the men who wrote each Deutrocanonical book? I don’t think you can. That is another reason why they are rejected by Protestants.

 

[Janet_S]

Can you tell me the names of the men who wrote each Deutrocanonical book? I don’t think you can. That is another reason why they are rejected by Protestants.

I never heard this one before. I think I’ll start compiling a list of all the arguments Protestants use against the deuterocanonical books. They’re just like the OJ Simpson defense team–throwing everything at us hoping something will stick. If they had a real, coherent argument they would develop it well and stick to it. You don’t see that though because there is none.

Some of the deuterocanonical authors were known, some were not. Here are the books and their authors according to the NAB prefaces:
Tobit–unknown
Judith–unknown
Wisdom–unknown
Sirach–Jesus, son of Eleazar, son of Sirach
Maccabees I --unknown
Maccabees II–Jason of Cyrene
Baruch–Baruch, Jeremiah’s secretary

Many other books in the Bible have unknown authors. No one knows who wrote the book of Hebrews for instance.

If you want to find out the authors of each book of the Bible, you can read the prefaces. The authorship of most books is debated by scholars. For example, the NAB preface for the book of Matthew says the author is unknown. Also the book of Revelation is authored by John, but whether this was John the apostle was debated by the Church Fathers.

You may have heard this argument about the deuterocanonical books–I’m not sure. But it could be made against most other books of the Bible as well.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Originally Posted by Nancie Lew forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Can you tell me the names of the men who wrote each Deutrocanonical book? I don’t think you can. That is another reason why they are rejected by Protestants.

The Dark Lord just keeps on inventing reasons and excuses.

This is definitely a new one.

Wow, based on this excuse, I guess we can throw some more books.

Genesis

Some of the prophet books have questionable authorship.

3 if not all four Gospels.

Hebrews

Revelations

 

[Mannyfit75]

Can you tell me the names of the men who wrote each Deutrocanonical book? I don’t think you can. That is another reason why they are rejected by Protestants.

Have you even read those Deutrocanonical Books?

Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), Baruch (with Letter of Jeremiah), 1 & 2 Maccabees. I recommend you read the books before you make rash judgments… All you are doing now is attacking… attacking… attacking…

 

[Mannyfit75]

Read this article Nancie

catholic-legate.com/articles/w-word4.htm

 

[Nancie_Lew]

The Dark Lord just keeps on inventing reasons and excuses.

This is definitely a new one.

Wow, based on this excuse, I guess we can throw some more books.

Genesis

Some of the prophet books have questionable authorship.

3 if not all four Gospels.

Hebrews

Revelations

You do realize that there are other copies of the Greek Septuagint and that they differ in their selection of included apocryphal books. The three oldest complete copies we have of the Greek OT include different additional books. Codex Vaticanus (4th century) omits 1 and 2 Maccabees, which is canonical according to the Roman Catholic Church, and includes 1 Esdras, which they reject. Codex Sinaiticus (4th century) leaves out Baruch. which is supposed to be canonical, but includes 4 Maccabees, which they reject. Codex Alexandrinus (5th century) includes three non-canonical Apocryphal books, 1 Esdras and 3 and 4 Maccabees. I thought the Canon was already decided at Carthage prior to all of these copies. Please tell me which is the correct Bible version.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus

 

[Nancie_Lew]

Have you even read those Deutrocanonical Books?

Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), Baruch (with Letter of Jeremiah), 1 & 2 Maccabees. I recommend you read the books before you make rash judgments… All you are doing now is attacking… attacking… attacking…

No I haven’t read them.

Can you show me any evidence that the Jews (neither Hebrew nor Greek speaking) ever accepted a wider canon than the twenty-two books of the Hebrew OT? From what I have read it was the Christian community that took over the Greek OT and added the Apocrypha to it and “gave some measure of scriptural status to them”.

There are other Jewish translations of the OT that did not include the Apocryphal books. Neither the Targums, which is the Aramaic translation of the OT, or the Syriac translation called the Peshitta include the apocrypha.

 

[Nancie_Lew]

Some of the deuterocanonical authors were known, some were not.

 

[Nancie_Lew]

Read this article Nancie

catholic-legate.com/articles/w-word4.htm

The council that decided the structure of the Bible as we know it today, took place in 360 AD at the council of Laodocia. According to that council the books included in the canon had to satisfy the following criteria: The books had to be written by an apostle, or during the time of the apostles and support the doctrine established in Nicea 35 years earlier. These books had to already have a wide circulation, and be familiar to all the people deciding the makeup of the New Testament.

 

[Mannyfit75]

No I haven’t read them.

Can you show me any evidence that the Jews (neither Hebrew nor Greek speaking) ever accepted a wider canon than the twenty-two books of the Hebrew OT? From what I have read it was the Christian community that took over the Greek OT and added the Apocrypha to it and “gave some measure of scriptural status to them”

First of all it is not Apocrypha. It is Deutrocanonical. You have part of your information correct. In the beginning of the Christian Church, the books we have now included both the Mesoretic Text and Greek Translation of the Hebrew Text from Alexandria Egypt.

There was never a closed Canon proclaimed by the Jews during the time of Christ. In fact, the Pharisees and the Sadducees attest to this for they interpret Scripture much differently. The Sadducees you know do not believe in the resurrection, but the Pharisees do.

We also acknowledge that in later times, the Gentile Christians out numbered the Jews. Many of these Gentile speakers spoke Greek, and the only translation of the Greek was the Deutrocanonical Books. The books were also used by the Jews of the Dispersia (spelling unsure). In fact Paul himself spoke Greek, and read Greek.

I can go and on. There ample evidence to that these books are used.

For example, consider this passage:

Hebrew 11:35-2

Women received back their dead through resurrection. Some were tortured and would not accept deliverance in order to obtain a better resurrection.

2 Maccabees 7:1:13-14

If also happend that seven brothers with their mother were arrested and tortured with whips and scourges by the king, to force them to eat pork in violation of God’s law. Now when this man was dead also, they tormented and mangled the fourth in like manner. So he was ready to die he said thus, It is good, being put to death by men, to look for hope from God to be raised us again by Him; as for thee, thou shall have no resurrection to life.

The only OT reference of Hebrew 11:35-2 is only found in 2 Maccabees 7:7. It is not found in any of the Hebrew Text.

There are other Jewish translations of the OT that did not include the Apocryphal books. Neither the Targums, which is the Aramaic translation of the OT, or the Syriac translation called the Peshitta include the apocrypha.

You talk as if we have the originals. We don’t. They were destroyed during the great persecution of Christians by Nero and his successors. The only parts or fragments of the Bible we have are copies which has been preserved by monastic monks, who worked day and night to get write it in the Missal which is used for the Mass.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Another text in the NT that cited (not quoted) is found in John 10:22 called the Feast of Didication (Hanukkah). This was established during the time of the Maccabees and prescribe as an annual feast.

The story goes, Antiochus IV, King of Syria had defeated Egypt and turned his wrath towards Israel. He took for himself a golden alter, lamb stand and sacred vessels of the Temple and sacrifice a pig to the god Zeus in the Holy of Holies. The Syrian king forbade circumcision, Sabbath observance, and keeping of other kosher laws. Judas Maccabees refuse to submit to the king’s oppressive rules, and led a successful rebellion on behalf of God’s people against their oppressiors.

The origin of the feast is found nowhere in the Protestant Bible, yet our Lord not only attended to this feast by he used the Feast of Lights as the backdrop of His “Light of the World” discourse (John 1:9)

Here is the verse from John 10:22

And it was the feast of dedication at Jerusalem, and it was winter.

From 1 Maccabees 4:59

And Judas and his brethren and all the church of Israel decreed, that the day of the dedication of the alter should be kept in its season from year to year.

Jews still celebrate Hanukkah every winter.

Most Protestant reject these books because the Jews at the Council of Jamnia rejected them. It is also point out that in the Council of Jamnia, that the Jewish rabbis there also condemned Jesus Christ and did not declare him to be the Messiah. I don’t know why they consider Jamnia a valid council but ignore the fact the they rejected the Lord.

The Council of Jamnia in 90 AD is supposed to have closed canon of the OT for the Jews. Yet the Christian Church at the time did not find their decreeds binding.

 

[MrS]

Good morning Manny…

hope all is well for you… glad to see that you are able to “do your work” while you serve. Thank you for both. Keep safe.

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