Deutrocanonical Books-Apologetics

[Wisdom]

Quotes from other apocryphal books have what to do with Gregory’s thinking 1 Maccabees is not part of the canon???

Like I said you would not read the article on St Gregory and his view of scripture he did not say that Maccabees as not scripture or uninspired nor deem them apocrapha as you misleading include that term in your statement. He just said it was not canonical in the universal sense and he was right. As you did not point out as you are only capable of retorting the limited facts Webster give you he was from Constantinople prior to being the Bishop of Rome and these books were not canonical in the east yet though they were deemed by to be scripture and inspired something St Gregory concludes when **he uses the dueterocanonicals as scripture in the very same letter concerning Job. That is why quotes form the duterocaonicals have everything to do with Maccabees **he deems them as scripture and inspired just as not part of the univeral canon of the church but they were canonical in the west and obviously elgible for canonization in the east as they later where by the way something you conveneintly leave out. If these books were deemed apocrapha by the univeral church they would have never been canonized later both in the east and the west but they where another inconvenient fact that you fail to adress as if blows a whole in your lack of logic.

He never calls them apocrapha as your protestants do you make his position out to be so but you are extremly misleading as Webster as mislead you as you are incapable of doing further research even when we provide it to you.

ANyways since you won’t read the link to the articles that we gave you we will post here because your too lazy to go read a link.

St. Gregory the Great, Pope, [590-604, A.D.]

Between 578 and 595 AD, in “The Moral Teaching”, St. Gregory wrote the following on what is ‘canonical’. He wrote this, or at least began this work (with no notes dividing the time he was in Rome from the time from Constantinople), according to the notes of Rev. James Barmby, in NPNF2, Vol. 12, Prolegomena p. XV, from Constantinople (prior to assuming the role of Pope). Thus, he is speaking of the canon from Constantinople where he was located. The following says that 1st Maccabees is not in ‘the canon.’ Notice he does not say that 1st Maccabees is ‘uninspired’ or not Scripture.

With reference to which particular we are not acting irregularly, if from the books, though not Canonical, yet brought out for the edification of the Church, we bring forward testimony. Thus Eleazar in the battle smote and brought down an elephant, but fell under the very beast that he killed" (1 Macc. 6.46). (Joseph Gildea, Gregory the Great, A Synthesis of Moralia in Job (New York: Peter Lang Publishing, 1991, Part 1, Book 3, p. 126.)

Remember, just because he is terming it non-canonical does not mean it is not Scripture. Again, he began this work in 578 and ended in 595. He began being Pope only in 590 AD and reigned to 601 AD. This book is divided into two parts, with each one having six books. This book is only part one, and only book three. Thus, this passage is done in the first quarter of his whole work, well before he was Pope, where he is in Constantinople, where Maccabees is not part of the canon. As we have seen with other Fathers who did not put these books in their canon, he still refers to these books as Scripture. Notice, even here, while he is in Constantinople, he does not term it Unscriptural, or uninspired. In Constantinople at the time, he most likely was only speaking of the canon in that area, which only consists of what is read in the Liturgy. The canon that he is speaking of is not the full extent of Scripture, as we saw with St. Athanasius and the other Fathers. Now, to go on to what he thought of the Deuterocanonical books in the very work where the above passage is cited. Did he consider the Deuterocanonical books as Unscriptural, which Protestants who make much hay about the reference to 2nd Maccabees as ‘uncanonical’, assume? Let us check this very work. The following quotes, not found in the Schaff NPNF2 edition, volume 12, which has some of St. Gregory the Great’s writings. I take these quotes from Joseph Gildea, St. Gregory the Great, A Synthesis of Moralia in Job (New York: Peter Lang Publishing) 1991. I will put the book, part and page number as taken from the book:

 

[Wisdom]

Pride is of course the root of all evil, of which it is said, as Scripture bears witness: Pride is the beginning of all sin. (Sirach 10:26) Moreover; proliferating from this poisonous root as its first offspring are seven capital sins: vainglory, envy, anger malancholy, avarice, gluttony, lust. For because he grieved that we were held in bondage by these seven derivatives of pride, on that account our Redeemer, full of the spirit of sevenfold grace, joined spiritual battle for our liberation. St. Gregory the Great, A Synthesis of Moralia in Job, Part 1, Book 3, p. 85.

The former, it is said by Holy Scripture: Do not become like the horse and the mule which have no understanding (Psalm 31:9). The proud effort of the latter is blamed when it is said: Seek not the things that are too high for thee, and search not into things above thy ability (Sirach 3:22). To the former it is said: Mortify your members which are upon the earth: fornication, uncleanness, lust, eveil consupiscence (Col. 3:5), to the latter it is said: Beware lest any man cheat you by philosophy and vain deceipt (Col. 2:8) St. Gregory the Great, A Synthesis of Moralia in Job, Book 1, Part 3, 21, p. 116

Here is the same book and same part (Book 1, Part 3) as the mentioned quote which some Protestants will use to say that St. Gregory denies the Scriptural status of Maccabees. However, in the very same part of the same book, St. Gregory calls Sirach Scripture. Sirach is ‘Scripture bearing witness.’ Maccabees is in the very same category of books as Sirach on every list known to us. Not only does Scripture bear witness, but he affirms this even more when he teaches on morals, that Sirach is termed ‘Holy Scripture’ in the very same category as Psalms and Colossians. These two passages in and of themselves give further evidence that St. Gregory clearly shows that when he speaks of uncanonical, that does not mean that the book is ‘unscriptural.’ On the contrary, St. Gregory positively affirms Sirach, the very same category of books from which Maccabees comes, as Scripture.

Hence it is that with difficulty is eternal rest attained by the powerful who are surrounded by numberless hosts of lieges and bound with the tight coils of a great variety of concerns. In this regard Scripture says A most severe judgment shall be for them that bear rule. (Wisdom 12:6) Hence Truth says in the Gospel: Unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required (Luke 12:48). It rarely happens that those who possess gold strive for eternal rest, inasmuch as Truth himself says: How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God (Mt. 19:25). St. Gregory the Great, A Synthesis of Moralia in Job, Part 1, Book 4, 3, p. 133.

Here we have St. Gregory term in the immediate book and part that is right after his denying the canonicity of a Deuterocanonical book (while at the same time affirming their Scriptural status), at the same time declare affirmatively, the Book of Wisdom, which is in the very category of books as Maccabees, as ‘Scripture says.’ Thus, we have yet another Deuterocanonical book, the book of Wisdom, in the immediate vicinity of the very same part of this book of Morals where Protestants quote to claim that Pope Gregory deny the inspiration of the Deuterocanonicals, termed yet again as Scripture.

I quote here again in the same book and part of the book (Book 1, Part 3) from St. Gregory:

He is king over all the children of pride (Job 41:25). It is written: Pride is the beginning of all sin ( Sirach 10:15). St. Gregory the Great, A Synthesis of Moralia in Job, Part 1, Book 3, 2, P. 87. 

In this regard it is written: By the envy of the devil, death came into the world (Wisdom 2:24). For when the decay of envy has corrupted the vanquished heart, exterior indications show how greatly mad impulses provoked the mind. St. Gregory the Great, A Synthesis of Moralia in Job Part 1, Book 3, 7, p. 96.

Anger indeed killeth the foolish : and envy slayeth the little one (Job 5:2 ). Since it is written: But thou, Lord, judgest with tranquility (Wisdom 12:18), we must particularly take note that as often as we restrain our turbulent emotions by the virtue of mildness, we are trying to return to the likeness of our Creator. St. Gregory the Great, A Synthesis of Moralia in Job Part 1, Book 3, 9, p. 98.

By anger life is lost although wisdom may seem to be retained, as it is written: anger destroyeth even the wise (Sirach 32:26), for indeed the confused mind is not effective even if it is able to judge anything wisely. By anger righteousness is abandoned, as it is written: The anger of man worketh not the justice of God (Jer. 9:14). St. Gregory the Great, A Synthesis of Moralia in Job Part 1, Book 3, 9, p. 98.

 

[Wisdom]

We have Pope St. Gregory, in the very same Part and book of his work on the book of Morals, that we have focused on (where he denies the canonicity of a Deuterocanonical book) affirm the Scriptural Status of these books an additional four times, where the quotations of these books are preceded by the phrase It is written. As we have seen that phrase is an even more unmistakeable reference to these books as Scripture.

For hence it is said by Solomon: If a man live many years , and have rejoiced in them all, he must remmeber the darksome time, and the many days: which, when they shall come, the things past shall be accused of vanity (Eccl. 11:8). Hence again it is written: In all thy works, remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin (Sirach 7:40). St. Gregory the Great, A Synthesis of Moralia in Job, Part 1, Book 2, 32, p. 82. 

For now any sinner casts away the fear of God and yet lives, blasphemes and yet prospers, because the merciful Creator in seeing does not wish to punish the one whom he wishes to correct by waiting of him as it is written: Thou overlookest the sins of men for the sake of repentance (Wisdom 11:24). But when the sinner is looked upon hereafter, he shall be no more, because when the strict judge precisely examines his deserts, the guilty one is not equal to the torments. St. Gregory the Great, A Synthesis of Moralia in Job, Part 2, Book 1, 11, p. 204. 

Observe how through his angels he comes down to establish misdeeds and immediately strikes the evildoers. And he who is patient, who is mild, of whom it is written: But thou, Lord, judgest with tranquility, of whom (Wisdom 12:18) it again is written: The Lord is a patient rewarder (Sirach 5:4), Gregory the Great, A Synthesis of Moralia in Job, Part 2, Book 4, 15, p. 289

Three more times in the book of Morals we see the Scriptural identifying phrase It is written. In this one book of Morals, St. Gregory refers to the Deuterocanonical books approximately 37-40 times in the same way as other Scriptures. He takes for granted their Scriptural status. Not one quote did I see where St. Gregory treat them as anything but Scripture. This includes many more times where he used the Scripture identifying phrase It is written before giving the quote, but for space purposes I have not given further quotes. The evidence that St. Gregory provides is overwhelming: The Deuterocanonical books are Scripture and any attempt to read one quote which denies the ‘canonical status’ of the Deuterocanonical book, and go with that as denying Scriptural status, is absolutely false. These books are undoubtedly Scripture and any attempt to use Pope St. Gregory against the Scriptural status of these books is either badly misinformed and/or horribly misleading.

Now, on to the quotes which shows at what level of authority Pope Gregory gives the Deuterocanonical books in his other writings. In the NPNF2 series, vol. 12, which gives some of his writings (but does not give all his writings, for example it does not have Morals on the Book of Job which I cited extensively above), he quotes from the Deuterocanonicals 25 times.

To read those quotes and the rest of the article why Gregory thought the Dueteros scripture here is the link my lazy friend.

matt1618.freeyellow.com/deut.html#St.%20Gregory%20the%20Great,%20Pope,%20[590-604,%20A.D.]

 

[colliric]

I notice most of this arguement has been over the original Canon of the bible.

Here’s something else I find that protestants try to dance around, They really squirm when you fire this one and I don’t think it’s been mentioned here yet:

Tobit CH12:
12:12. When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night, I offered thy prayer to the Lord.

12:15. For I am the angel Raphael, **one of the seven, who stand before the Lord. **

Revelations:
Revelation 1:4
…Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from** the seven Spirits which are before his throne. **

Revelation 8:3-4
And another **angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints **upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

So you see, even their own doctrine of Sola Scriptura dictates that the Deuterocanon is in fact part of the Bible, Because the apostle John had it. But they continue to deny the outright facts of the situation and just like the “this rock” passage, they continue to argue against the blatantly obvious truth of the Catholic bible canon and of the Catholic faith.

 

[Wisdom]

I notice most of this arguement has been over the original Canon of the bible.

Here’s something else I find that protestants try to dance around, They really squirm when you fire this one and I don’t think it’s been mentioned here yet:

Tobit CH12:
12:12. When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night, I offered thy prayer to the Lord.

12:15. For I am the angel Raphael, **one of the seven, who stand before the Lord. **

Revelations:
Revelation 1:4
…Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from** the seven Spirits which are before his throne. **

Revelation 8:3-4
And another **angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints **upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

So you see, even their own doctrine of Sola Scriptura dictates that the Deuterocanon is in fact part of the Bible, Because the apostle John had it. But they continue to deny the outright facts of the situation and just like the “this rock” passage, they continue to argue against the blatantly obvious truth of the Catholic bible canon and of the Catholic faith.

The book of Revelation just wreaks of the author obvious knowledge of Tobit here is another allusion he uses that is a striking and obvious parallel. The imagery in the book of Revelation is amazingly the same as the book of Tobit over and over again. Only a biased observer would admit otherwise. Of course it is an inconvenient fact that Martin Luther did not include either Tobit or Revelation in his canon as it probably was too obvius for him the connection between Revelation and the apocrpaha as he called it.

Tobit 13 16-17
Jerusalem shall be rebuilt as his home forever. **Happy for me if a remnant of my offspring survive to see your glory and to praise the King of heaven! **The gates of Jerusalem shall be built with sapphire and emerald, and all your walls with precious stones. The towers of Jerusalem shall be built with gold, and their battlements with pure gold.
The streets of Jerusalem shall be paved with rubies and stones of Ophir;

Revelation 21:18-21
The wall was constructed of jasper, while the city was pure gold, clear as glass.
The foundations of the city wall were decorated with every precious stone; the first course of stones was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald,
the fifth sardonyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh hyacinth, and the twelfth amethyst.
The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each of the gates made from a single pearl; and the street of the city was of pure gold, transparent as glass.
I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God almighty and the Lamb.

 

[Mannyfit75]

This relates to Gregory the Great in what way?

I pointing out that the ECF used them and you just ignore them. However, like other Protestant Apologists here, you have not given a good argument. Your arguments have be refuted time and time again…

 

[Mannyfit75]

This relates to Gregory the Great in what way?

I also like to add that I won’t add anything else since our fellow CAF member, Wisdom has taken the time to refute your claims.

 

[MrS]

I hold in my formerly pagan-out-of-the-Catholic-Church-for-25-years hands

a copy of the newly released

"Why Catholic Bibles Are Bigger - The Untold Story Of The Lost Books Of The Protestant Bible"

Arguments about 73 or 66 usually are either ended in confusion in trying to present all the evidence, because no one (until now) has really accumulated all that evidence.

Certainly a work like this would not come from a protestant camp, lest they find themselves in error.

Gary Michuta, the author, presents over 300 pages which any serious student can check and double check. There are many footnotes, many references, many proofs that once again the Catholic position is the correct one… and it is a fairly easy read.

handsonapologetics.com/ is the website of the author, and you can link on to Grotto Press to order… a $20 reference book every “66” proponent should now consider.

Thanks Gary… but where were you 500 years ago when Luther was playing his game?

seriously, if one can afford to pick this up… it is not only a great and long overdue reference on the deutrocanonicals, but you would be supporting a darn good ministry too.

.

 

[Wisdom]

I hold in my formerly pagan-out-of-the-Catholic-Church-for-25-years hands

a copy of the newly released

"Why Catholic Bibles Are Bigger - The Untold Story Of The Lost Books Of The Protestant Bible"

Arguments about 73 or 66 usually are either ended in confusion in trying to present all the evidence, because no one (until now) has really accumulated all that evidence.

Certainly a work like this would not come from a protestant camp, lest they find themselves in error.

Gary Michuta, the author, presents over 300 pages which any serious student can check and double check. There are many footnotes, many references, many proofs that once again the Catholic position is the correct one… and it is a fairly easy read.

handsonapologetics.com/ is the website of the author, and you can link on to Grotto Press to order… a $20 reference book every “66” proponent should now consider.

Thanks Gary… but where were you 500 years ago when Luther was playing his game?

seriously, if one can afford to pick this up… it is not only a great and long overdue reference on the deutrocanonicals, but you would be supporting a darn good ministry too.

.

Just got mine too man more ammo to work with. I haven’t had to read it obviously but skimmed though it and it appears to be quite objective and a well thought out arguement, it gives the protestant argument its due ie Jerome and other disagreements about the OT canon but it spells out why individual opinions don’t trump the church. It has some councils which are not as widely discussed too.

 

[kaycee]

Has Michuta figured a way out of the corner he painted himself into?

"Silence and the Problem of Catholic Canon Certainty

Catholic Apologist Gary Michuta asserts the Council of Trent chose to pass over in silence the status of the Septuagint book of 1 Esdras (or what Trent called, 3 Esdras). Michuta says,

What are the the implications of such a view? I think Gary Michuta may have cornered himself by his own argumentation. While he solved one problem, he created another. Let’s grant Michuta’s assertion that Trent passed over in silence on the book of Esdras in question. This means in the Roman system, as interpreted by Michuta, the possibility exists that the book in question is canonical, but not currently in the canon. Therefore, it is possible that the Bible is missing a book, in which case, Roman Catholics cannot be certain they have an infallible list of all the infallible books. In which case, their arguments stating they have canon certainty crumbles. It would also possibly mean, the canon is still open. Michuta notes that 42 people at Trent voted to pass over the book in silence. If Michuta is correct on his interpretation of Trent, these 42 people solved the problem of the contradiction between Hippo, Carthage, and Trent, but created the problem of an unclosed canon, and thrust Catholics into uncertainty.
Even more troubling for Michuta’s position are the statements put forth on the closed canon from the Roman Catholic Church. The Catholic Catechism states, “It was by the apostolic Tradition that the Church discerned which writings are to be included in the list of the sacred books. This complete list is called the canon of Scripture. It includes 46 books for the Old Testament (45 if we count Jeremiah and Lamentations as one) and 27 for the New.” Notice the words, complete list. If a book is passed over in silence, and may in fact be canonical, the list is not complete."

aomin.org/index.php?itemid=1911&catid=7

 

[Janet_S]

Has Michuta figured a way out of the corner he painted himself into?

"Silence and the Problem of Catholic Canon Certainty

Catholic Apologist Gary Michuta asserts the Council of Trent chose to pass over in silence the status of the Septuagint book of 1 Esdras (or what Trent called, 3 Esdras). Michuta says,

What are the the implications of such a view? I think Gary Michuta may have cornered himself by his own argumentation. While he solved one problem, he created another. Let’s grant Michuta’s assertion that Trent passed over in silence on the book of Esdras in question. This means in the Roman system, as interpreted by Michuta, the possibility exists that the book in question is canonical, but not currently in the canon. Therefore, it is possible that the Bible is missing a book, in which case, Roman Catholics cannot be certain they have an infallible list of all the infallible books. In which case, their arguments stating they have canon certainty crumbles. It would also possibly mean, the canon is still open. Michuta notes that 42 people at Trent voted to pass over the book in silence. If Michuta is correct on his interpretation of Trent, these 42 people solved the problem of the contradiction between Hippo, Carthage, and Trent, but created the problem of an unclosed canon, and thrust Catholics into uncertainty.
Even more troubling for Michuta’s position are the statements put forth on the closed canon from the Roman Catholic Church. The Catholic Catechism states, “It was by the apostolic Tradition that the Church discerned which writings are to be included in the list of the sacred books. This complete list is called the canon of Scripture. It includes 46 books for the Old Testament (45 if we count Jeremiah and Lamentations as one) and 27 for the New.” Notice the words, complete list. If a book is passed over in silence, and may in fact be canonical, the list is not complete."

aomin.org/index.php?itemid=1911&catid=7

Michuta’s book must be pretty good.

If it weren’t, I think James White could have come up with a better argument that this.

Is this his best shot?

Are you, Kaycee, satisfied with the Protestant definition of a fallible collection of infallible books? I guess you have to be.

 

[Nancie_Lew]

The majority of Catholic beliefs, creeds, theology, dogma (or whatever) are based on speculation.

 

[Mannyfit75]

The majority of Catholic beliefs, creeds, theology, dogma (or whatever) are based on speculation.

Are you an expert on Catholic belief and doctrine?

 

[Wisdom]

Michuta’s book must be pretty good.

If it weren’t, I think James White could have come up with a better argument that this.

Is this his best shot?

Are you, Kaycee, satisfied with the Protestant definition of a fallible collection of infallible books? I guess you have to be.

Actually your right it is quite telling that this is the best they can come up with its pretty weak stuff. For one thing its a stroke of genius as it allows for some books that the Orthodox consider canonical to be on this passed over status thus allowing room for further negotiations is reunification should occur. Also the books that neither the Orthodox or Catholics accept have been clarly ruled out such the real apocrapha and the gnostic gospels. No church father prior to Jerome called the duteros apocrapha for the simple reason they were not apocrapha they were well known and regularly read in the church. The term apocrapha was an attempt on Jerome’s part to make it inferior when history indicates they were liturgical church used books. As for White to be dissastisfied with Rome’s postion does he not realize he relies on Rome for his New Testament how comfortable is he with thier ruling on the New Testament since according to him they erred on the their new testament ruling? They got one testament right and then another wrong. Doesn’t make sense to me. At least be honest lIke Luther and blow the whole thing up as he could not trust the Jew or the catholic Luther was at least consistent. The very first protestant canon excluded Esther, James, Jude, Hebrews and Revelation. But the Protestant is satisfied by this level of infalibiblity of the Reformers who could not agree on this?

 

[Wisdom]

The majority of Catholic beliefs, creeds, theology, dogma (or whatever) are based on speculation.

That would make Protestantism a beakaway from a fraudulent religion. Truth cannot breakaway from falsehood. Many protestants estimate that 85 percent of their religion is based on the first 7 ecunemical catholic councils which for the most part they agree with. Thus making the majority of Protestant beliefs based on the speculation of Catholics. The entire nature of the Godhead and the entire canon of the new testament all the major creeds are somehow dependent on the truth of the catholic church and if that turth is based on speculation you better hope we speculated wright as your entire religion depends on it. Catholcism can exist entirely without protestantism. Protestantism is dependant on the truth of the Catholic Church during its first 7 ecunemical councils.
Without those you have no Christian creeds or new testament.
As Luther said the Papist gave us the scriptures for without them we have none.

 

[Janet_S]

That would make Protestantism a beakaway from a fraudulent religion. Truth cannot breakaway from falsehood. Many protestants estimate that 85 percent of their religion is based on the first 7 ecunemical catholic councils which for the most part they agree with. Thus making the majority of Protestant beliefs based on the speculation of Catholics. The entire nature of the Godhead and the entire canon of the new testament all the major creeds are somehow dependent on the truth of the catholic church and if that turth is based on speculation you better hope we speculated wright as your entire religion depends on it. Catholcism can exist entirely without protestantism. Protestantism is dependant on the truth of the Catholic Church during its first 7 ecunemical councils.
Without those you have no Christian creeds or new testament.
As Luther said the Papist gave us the scriptures for without them we have none.

From Nancie’s posts, it’s not clear what she is for.

Though we do know for sure what she is against–the Catholic Church, and she seems to take the side of anyone or anything non-Catholic.

Siding with all non-Catholic (and anti-Catholic) forces is not the best method for developing a coherent and true worldview.

I can’t say for sure if this is her philosophy of life, though it seems to be from her posts here. She’s kind of a mystery. Maybe the mystery will unfold as we learn about Nancie on other threads.

 

[kaycee]

Michuta’s book must be pretty good.

If it weren’t, I think James White could have come up with a better argument that this.

Is this his best shot?

Actually Michuta cornered himself with this argument years ago when he debated White.

Are you, Kaycee, satisfied with the Protestant definition of a fallible collection of infallible books? I guess you have to be

Exceedingly satisfied! All the Glory goes to God!

I’m not the one stuck with an infallible church that can’t infallibly define what is and is not scripture after 2000 years.

 

[kaycee]

Actually your right it is quite telling that this is the best they can come up with its pretty weak stuff. For one thing its a stroke of genius as it allows for some books that the Orthodox consider canonical to be on this passed over status thus allowing room for further negotiations is reunification should occur.

Yes, I am sure it helps to see the glass half full.

Also the books that neither the Orthodox or Catholics accept have been clarly ruled out such the real apocrapha and the gnostic gospels. No church father prior to Jerome called the duteros apocrapha for the simple reason they were not apocrapha they were well known and regularly read in the church.

True they did not call them apocrypha, they just left the deuts out of the list they called scripture.

 

[MrS]

Actually Michuta cornered himself with this argument years ago when he debated White.

I encourage anyone to go to Michuta’s site www.handsonapologetics.com and spend a few bucks and order the debate o CD or on DVD. Then judge for yourself how Mr/Dr White evades the issue by complaining about other Catholic beliefs while he avoids trying to answer a question which he cannot… evade…avoid.

Gary is, on the other hand, direct and to the point with anwers that are referenced and prove able …

Buy the book too… good stuff.

Exceedingly satisfied! All the Glory goes to God!

I’m not the one stuck with an infallible church that can’t infallibly define what is and is not scripture after 2000 years.

hehehe :extrahappy: you are funny… NOT

 

[Wisdom]

Yes, I am sure it helps to see the glass half full.

True they did not call them apocrypha, they just left the deuts out of the list they called scripture.

No the glass is very full despite your ranting the list of the canon did not fall from the sky saying thus saith God. It was revealed, transcribed and canonized though the church not talbets of stone aka Moses or Joseph Smith or according to some revisionist Martin Luther. And we are not the one with a religion of the book mentality the Book of Esdras does not make or break our religion in fact it does not affect it. The Word of God is our religion and that is primarily a person who has revealed himself through the church throgh her scripture, her tradtiion her creeds her magesterium without the church you would not know of the Revelation of Jesus CHrist period for it is her tradition by the power of the Holy Spirit that kept His revelation in constant revelation for 2000 years yes even before there was a bible.

The minority in the west prior to Jerome left them out the majority called them scripture once again you misrepresent the issue. Also even more than that left out such books as James, Jude, Hebrews and Revelation which not on many persons canonical list prior to the african councils.