Development of Paul's theology

clem456 · Oct 6, 2012

Had a discussion with a friend about the role of the Church as Catholics know it in establishing Christian theology. His opinion is that the council of Nicea sort of took the Church off on a tangent that is not in tradition with earlier Christianity. A hardened protestant viewpoint…

I pointed out to him that Paul, who is responsible for articulating a large body of Christian theology, was first knocked on his rear for his erroneous views.
Christ asks him “why are you persecuting -me-”. I pointed out to him that Paul did not know Jesus, so the word me meant -the Church and it’s people-.
And that he was sent blind and ignorant of Christian teaching to Ananius for Baptism into the church. In other words Paul was on the wrong side of the fence and had to be brought back within the confines of the Church. He had nothing of Christian teaching until subjecting himself to the Church.

There is a lost period of time involved here of which not much is written about the development of Paul’s teaching. Does anyone know of readings in this area or Church documents dealiing with the development of Paul’s theology?

bmonk · Oct 6, 2012

Just off the top of my head, Paul (in Galatians 1-2) speaks of spending time in Arabia and Damascus after his conversion.

Raymond Brown in The Churches the Apostles Left Behind looks for trajectories from Paul through the various Epistles–but that’s after his missionary work and writing the letters. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen anything on his development before his letters.

Rich · Oct 16, 2012

clem456 said:
Had a discussion with a friend about the role of the Church as Catholics know it in establishing Christian theology. His opinion is that the council of Nicea sort of took the Church off on a tangent that is not in tradition with earlier Christianity. A hardened protestant viewpoint…

I pointed out to him that Paul, who is responsible for articulating a large body of Christian theology, was first knocked on his rear for his erroneous views.
Christ asks him “why are you persecuting -me-”. I pointed out to him that Paul did not know Jesus, so the word me meant -the Church and it’s people-.
And that he was sent blind and ignorant of Christian teaching to Ananius for Baptism into the church. In other words Paul was on the wrong side of the fence and had to be brought back within the confines of the Church. He had nothing of Christian teaching until subjecting himself to the Church.

There is a lost period of time involved here of which not much is written about the development of Paul’s teaching. Does anyone know of readings in this area or Church documents dealiing with the development of Paul’s theology?

Bookcat · Oct 16, 2012

Rich · Oct 16, 2012

Saul was persecuting Jesus. He is the head of the body (church). He received back his sight by the laying on of hands first. Jesus healed him and accepted him before he was baptized. He received his theology by revelation from Jesus himself. He did not confer with the other apostles (church) for many years. The church never taught him anything. In fact the next time he went up to Jerusalem was to clear up a miss started by the (church) in Jerusalem. Act’s 15

clem456 · Oct 16, 2012

Rich said:
Saul was persecuting Jesus. He is the head of the body (church). He received back his sight by the laying on of hands first. Jesus healed him and accepted him before he was baptized. He received his theology by revelation from Jesus himself. He did not confer with the other apostles (church) for many years. The church never taught him anything. In fact the next time he went up to Jerusalem was to clear up a miss started by the (church) in Jerusalem. Act’s 15

Jesus was already crucified and risen when Paul encountered Him. Paul encounters the risen Christ. Paul was persecuting followers of The Way, the early Church. Paul was not throwing Jesus himself in jail, theology of the Mystical Body of Christ notwithstanding. Why would Jesus say to Paul “why do you persecute me?” when Paul never laid a hand on Christ? Jesus is specifically referring to the persecution of the Church He founded.

Paul is blinded by his encounter. He is helpelss until he comes to the brothers, then the scales fall off. Is baptized etc…

Paul is changed for ever by and inspired by Christ, but He is not a robot, the words of his letters are not simply Paul in a God–induced trance. Paul has to learn his theology from someone, and probably has to invest quite a bit of work into it, like everyone else. Disputes with other apostles do not disprove the authority of the Church any more than they do now.

Bookcat · Oct 16, 2012

Among the above you will find:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061122_en.html

clem456 · Oct 16, 2012

Bookcat said:
Among the above you will find:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061122_en.html

Thanks for the links, a wealth of info.
This sticks out from you link above:

History shows us that one usually reaches Jesus by passing through the Church! In a certain sense, this proved true, we were saying, also for Paul, who encountered the Church before he encountered Jesus. In his case, however, this contact was counterproductive; it did not result in attachment but violent rejection.

For Paul, adherence to the Church was brought about by a direct intervention of Christ, who in revealing himself on the road to Damascus identified himself with the Church and made Paul realize that persecution of the Church was persecution of himself, the Lord.

In fact, the Risen One said to Paul, persecutor of the Church: “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” (Acts 9: 4). In persecuting the Church, he was persecuting Christ.

Paul, therefore, was at the same time converted to Christ and to the Church. This leads one to understand why the Church later became so present in Paul’s thoughts, heart and activity.

Bballer32 · Oct 16, 2012

Rich said:
Saul was persecuting Jesus. He is the head of the body (church). He received back his sight by the laying on of hands first. Jesus healed him and accepted him before he was baptized. He received his theology by revelation from Jesus himself. He did not confer with the other apostles (church) for many years. The church never taught him anything. In fact the next time he went up to Jerusalem was to clear up a miss started by the (church) in Jerusalem. Act’s 15

Did you know that it wasn’t Christ who laid hands on him but an apostle? Christ was acting through the apostle which we Catholics recognize as acting “in persona Christi”

steve_b · Oct 16, 2012

Rich said:
Saul was persecuting Jesus. He is the head of the body (church).

Jesus and His Church are one. It’s not either / or but both. Persecute the Church, or any member in it, one persecutes Jesus.
R:

He received back his sight by the laying on of hands first. Jesus healed him and accepted him before he was baptized.

In the beginning of the Church, 1st were adult converts. One needed instruction before baptism.
R:

He received his theology by revelation from Jesus himself. He did not confer with the other apostles (church) for many years.

You can be sure, laying hands on Paul by the Church wasn’t done lightly. Paul had to demonstrate he had the faith. Everybody in the Church already knew what Saul now Paul was good at before his conversion.
R:

The church never taught him anything. In fact the next time he went up to Jerusalem was to clear up a -]miss/-] started by the (church) in Jerusalem. Act’s 15

-]miss/-] (did you mean mess?)

Re: Judaizers and circumcision, who were coming from James group, Paul was guilty of this criticism also. Peter is the one who stood up in council, and put an end to the argument over this

How was Paul guilty of this also you ask? Ref: to Paul rebukes peter, Gal 2…] and Jerome in his letter to Augustine who discusses this issue.

St Jerome responded to this charge of Paul rebuking Peter by observing that,

Peter was well aware of the law of Moses, but was playing to those who were weak in their faith and out of fear that he might lose them, did what he did so like the Good Shepherd, would not lose ANYONE given to him.

Now look at what Paul did

In Acts 16:1-3 Paul took a disciple named Timothy… and on account of the Jews of that region, Paul had Timothy a gentile, circumcised. Then
Acts 18:18, Acts 21: 18-26 Paul shaved his head, purified himself and made sacrifice according to the Mosaic law, which he had previously said is no longer to be followed.

Catch that? Paul rebukes Peter while giving himself a pass on far more. But actually, Paul learned from Peter in this exercise that he would enjoin later in his ministry… Because Paul later in his travels explains HIS behavior by saying, to the Gentiles he becomes as a Gentile, to win them over, as to the Jews he became a Jew so that some might be saved. [1 cor 9:20] This is exactly what Peter did earlier with the gentiles and was rebuked by Paul for it. Then Paul embraces this behavior for himself…

St Jerome points out.

“O blessed Apostle Paul, who has rebuked Peter
for hypocrasybecause he withdrew himself from the
Gentiles for fear of the Jews who’ came from
James, why are you, not withstanding your own
doctrine, compelled to circumcise Timothy, the son of a
Gentile, for he was not a Jew, having not been circumcised? Will you answer, ‘Because of the Jews which are in these quarters.? If so, then forgive yourself the circumcision of a disciple coming from the Gentiles, and forgive Peter also, who has precedence above you, his doing some things of the same kind through fear of the believing Jews.”

Jerome continues, “Why did you [Paul] shave your head, why did you walk barefoot according to the Jewish ceremonial law, why did you offer sacrifices, why were victims slain for you
according to the law? Will you answer, ‘To avoid giving offense to those of the Jews who had believed.’ To gain the Jews, you did pretend to be a Jew”. [snip]

I tried to highlight and compress ( albeit a poor job on my part) what Jerome writes to Augustine concerning this subject. I focused particularly starting with ch’s 3…. of his letter. Here is Jerome’s full letter. Please read it. Forget my inept job at trying to summarize. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102075.htm

Development of Paul's theology

clem456

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