Devil in the Garden

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Hi Have a questions - actually I was speaking with my son and he posed the question and I had no answer.

This is his question (well questions but they stemmed from this one) - If Adam and Eve were in paradise/garden of Eden how did the devil get in to tempt them? Didn’t God put everything in the Garden? Didn’t He send the devil to Hell so how did he get out?

Your replies are appreciated it.

Maui
 
Hi Maui,

First of all the devil, although a fallen angel, is still a pure spirit. He has no body. Spirits are not in any place. They can be said to be where they act. (That is why we say God is everywhere; he sustains everything in being; he acts constantly on every being.)

While on earth, we are being tested to see if we can be faithful to God. God has given the devil permission to test us. That is why he can “go” anywhere and tempt us.

Does this answer your question?

Verbum
 
Maui71 said:
… Didn’t He send the devil to Hell so how did he get out?

Maui
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Satan is not in Hell yet

Revelation 20:

Satan’s Doom
7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
 
Thank you for your replies.

@Verbum - I understand he is a spirit but he tempted Eve and Adam before they fell and before they became mortal. He was allowed into the garden? God knows every hair on your head. Was or is the Garden on earth?

@Redbert - My understanding is that when they fell St. Michael drove them out of heaven and they were cast into hell. And even if they are not yet in hell they were still allowed into the garden? Plus revelations says the beast was let loose implying he was caged before.

This is getting good. Can’t wait for your replies!!
 
I have a semi-related question.

If Adam and Eve walked and talked with God in the Garden of Eden, doesn’t that mean they saw the Beatific Vision? And seeing the Beatific Vision supposedly takes precedence over all temptation to sin, which is why there is no sin in Heaven.

So how did Adam and Eve sin in the Garden of Eden?
 
Maui71 said:
Hi Have a questions - actually I was speaking with my son and he posed the question and I had no answer.

This is his question (well questions but they stemmed from this one) - If Adam and Eve were in paradise/garden of Eden how did the devil get in to tempt them? Didn’t God put everything in the Garden? Didn’t He send the devil to Hell so how did he get out?

Your replies are appreciated it.

Maui
Click to expand...
Actually, the “devil” is not referred to at all or mentioned by any name in the story of the couple in the garden.

This story is a symbolic story exploring the question “If God made everything and loves us, why is there suffering?”. The answer provided by the story, of course, is that we suffer when we disobey God. As the catechism states, the story speaks in figurative language. The snake is simply a character in the story.
 
Maui71 said:
Hi Have a questions - actually I was speaking with my son and he posed the question and I had no answer.

This is his question (well questions but they stemmed from this one) - If Adam and Eve were in paradise/garden of Eden how did the devil get in to tempt them? Didn’t God put everything in the Garden? Didn’t He send the devil to Hell so how did he get out?

Your replies are appreciated it.

Maui
Click to expand...
Maui

This may not be what to say to your son, but it might help in understanding what to say to your son.

It seems that the Lord has placed us where life and no life meet. Made of dust that has no life but yet live there in. If we are to live the Life that God has given us, it is proved by His Presence with us through His Word. When Jesus went to experience what we do in temptation His response is the Word of God, in the Presence of God (Holy Spirit). Which was not the response at the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

That which is of God is good, for God is good. Not what we judge for ourselves is good. If you notice that it was the eating of the fruit that clinched it. And when we eat we judge what is good. And what we eat sustains us. Hence the Bread of Life, which is good for us to live the Life that is of God.
 
patg said:
Actually, the “devil” is not referred to at all or mentioned by any name in the story of the couple in the garden.

This story is a symbolic story exploring the question “If God made everything and loves us, why is there suffering?”. The answer provided by the story, of course, is that we suffer when we disobey God. As the catechism states, the story speaks in figurative language. The snake is simply a character in the story.
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Your post is utter nonsense.

The genealogy in St. Luke showed the tree of Joseph all the way back to Adam indicating Adam was indeed an actual person. These events actually occurred, Adam and Eve were actual beings. I like how people will look for a secular answer and say it is “symbolic” or a metaphor for something when they get a little resistance to a complicated issue. By this logic you can turn anything clearly stated in the bible which into something open to interpretation, or symbolic, demeaning the Bible into nothing more but a philosophy or story book which IT IS NOT! It clearly states that the Word is NOT open to interpretation, meaning individual interpretation. This is a modernism train of thought. It doesn’t apply to stuff written thousands of years ago, particularly Jewish Sacred books and subsequent Catholic Sacred scripture, or actually anyone who clearly states what he is writing. Im not going to let some critic tell me what I meant when I am writing something.

The snake has always been understood to be satan or representing him somehow. Snakes dont talk on their own. When John the baptist called the Pharisees ‘Brood of vipers’ was clearly calling them sons of the devil. The brusing of the heel and crusing of the head wasnt about snakes, it was about the wounding of Christ(and in a sense Mary) and the defeat of satan.
 
KShaft said:
Your post is utter nonsense.

The genealogy in St. Luke showed the tree of Joseph all the way back to Adam indicating Adam was indeed an actual person. These events actually occurred, Adam and Eve were actual beings. I like how people will look for a secular answer and say it is “symbolic” or a metaphor for something when they get a little resistance to a complicated issue. By this logic you can turn anything clearly stated in the bible which into something open to interpretation, or symbolic, demeaning the Bible into nothing more but a philosophy or story book which IT IS NOT! It clearly states that the Word is NOT open to interpretation, meaning individual interpretation. This is a modernism train of thought. It doesn’t apply to stuff written thousands of years ago, particularly Jewish Sacred books and subsequent Catholic Sacred scripture, or actually anyone who clearly states what he is writing. Im not going to let some critic tell me what I meant when I am writing something.

The snake has always been understood to be satan or representing him somehow. Snakes dont talk on their own. When John the baptist called the Pharisees ‘Brood of vipers’ was clearly calling them sons of the devil. The brusing of the heel and crusing of the head wasnt about snakes, it was about the wounding of Christ(and in a sense Mary) and the defeat of satan.
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Your post is utter nonsense.

I can suggest a few books and dogmatic instructions on scripture study if you are interested in understanding this.
The snake has always been understood to be satan or representing him somehow.
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That doesn’t change the FACT that the snake is never referred to as satan in the story. And by the way, the fruit has always been understood as being an apple, but the type of fruit isn’t mentioned either.
Snakes dont talk on their own.
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Oh but they do in symbolic myths.
 
Thanks Andrew!

I really would wish someone could at least give an answer to the OP.
 
Maui71 said:
Hi Have a questions - actually I was speaking with my son and he posed the question and I had no answer.

This is his question (well questions but they stemmed from this one) - If Adam and Eve were in paradise/garden of Eden how did the devil get in to tempt them? Didn’t God put everything in the Garden? Didn’t He send the devil to Hell so how did he get out?

Your replies are appreciated it.

Maui
Click to expand...
I’ll give it a try.

My understanding and recollection is that the tree (whether literally real or figurative) was the tree of the “knowledge of good and evil”. We can think of knowledge both in the sense of “understanding” and in the sense of “participating” or “being in communion with” (as in “Lot knew his wife”.

Satan (and it’s hard to think of “the snake” in any other way) told Eve that they would become like gods if they had this knowledge. Up until then, they were totally creatures of grace and providence. The temptation was to take what was represented to them as a “step up”. They would be “wiser”, more “god-like”. The appeal was not to taste or smell. The temptation was to pride; the very same pride Lucifer had in declaring “I will not serve”

In saying “I will not serve”, Lucifer was saying “I declare myself autonomous. I do not wish to follow Your providence. I wish to be in my own “universe” where I rule myself and those who wish to follow me.”

So, in tempting Adam and Eve with the “knowledge of good and evil”, he was tempting them to spiritual autonomy. “You will become as gods” just as Lucifer became his own god; forever to dedicate his being to self-worship and forever defying God’s will for him.

In a way, then, Satan was telling Adam and Eve a lie by telling them (in a way) the truth. The full truth would have been “Get to know evil first hand and you will be worshipping yourself as you would a god.” And, in truth, that’s exactly what we are doing when we sin. We now all have a “knowledge of good and evil” and, at times and in some ways, exercise spiritual autonomy. We are worshipping ourselves when we do.

I mentally relate it to the First Commandment. “I (only) am the Lord your God. You shall not have strange gods before you.” “Strange gods” include ourselves.

Ste. Therese of Lisieux; a Doctor of the Church and worthy of credence, said that in our final transition from this world to the next, we are offered God’s love and forgiveness, but we must acknowledge His truth and accept His will fully. Alternatively, we can choose ourselves for all eternity. And, whether there’s fire there or not, that’s hell. Everybody in hell is a volunteer, in other words. Hard to believe, in a way; that somebody would freely choose hell, knowing what he was giving up and what he was getting. But when one thinks about it in terms of self-absorption and self-serving, it’s not impossible to imagine it.

Anyway, that’s my take on it, Maui. Good luck with your son.
 
Maui71 said:
Thank you for your replies.

@Verbum - I understand he is a spirit but he tempted Eve and Adam before they fell and before they became mortal. He was allowed into the garden? God knows every hair on your head. Was or is the Garden on earth?

@Redbert - My understanding is that when they fell St. Michael drove them out of heaven and they were cast into hell. And even if they are not yet in hell they were still allowed into the garden? Plus revelations says the beast was let loose implying he was caged before.

This is getting good. Can’t wait for your replies!!
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It said he was cast out of heaven, it did not say he was cast into hell. He is often referred to as the Prince of this World, and the early fathers understood this as such. The reference to the devil being chained refers to the gospel being spread, not to the complete absence of the presence of Satan. Hope this helps.
 
Oh, there was another part to it wasn’t there?

How could Satan be in the garden, which was otherwise perfect?

I think a previous poster explained it, and probably better than I will. Satan is a pure spirit. In our sense of things, he is “everywhere and nowhere”, since spirits are not bound by material place. He could “appear” to them spiritually anywhere.

How could God allow this, one might ask. Well, one might as well ask why he allowed angels a moment of clear choice, knowing as He did that some would reject Him in favor of self-worship. Because He wants the choice to be free. He could have created us and angels as He did animals. They are not responsible for sin. They live their lives in a preordained fashion, and can’t veer to the right or the left. They are not tempted. It was not God’s will to have us or angels like animals or volcanoes or wind or rocks. He wanted us to choose total union with Him if we want it. But only if we want it.

It seems there is something about union with God that necessarily involves choice; voluntariness. Why, exactly, I don’t know. But then, I don’t pretend to know the mind of God. After all, when we are in union with Him, we will spend all eternity with the mind of God exposed to us, gaining in wisdom and light at every moment. But we will never be able to exhaust His riches, because He is infinite.
 
Ridgerunner,

Out of the park!

Thanks.

I really appreciate everyone’s reply. Genisis - especially creation - is not your easy every day topic. There is both fact and illustration to it.

I particulalry like the part of union with God and choice. That was very insightful.

Godbless all of you who have taken the time to reply to my question.

Enjoy the weekend.

Maui
 
Maui71 said:
Thanks Andrew!

I really would wish someone could at least give an answer to the OP.
Click to expand...
This is his question (well questions but they stemmed from this one) - If Adam and Eve were in paradise/garden of Eden how did the devil get in to tempt them?
Click to expand...
The following are suggested answers which you can put in your own words.

Back then, the word paradise was usually thought of as enclosed park (like a garden) usually attached to a royal palace. … It was considered a place of peace and beauty. (Catholic Bible Dictionary, Scott Hahn, General Editor, ISBN: 978-0-385-51229-9)

I guess this is why we think of the Garden of Eden as being separate from the rest of the world. Actually, there is no real reason to think that there were thick walls surrounding this particular garden. The key point to remember is that the garden was a place of peace and beauty because God was there with Adam and Eve. Imagine how much fun it would be to walk and talk with God.😃

First thing you need to know is that the devil was first created by God as a wonderful, beautiful, good angel. An angel is a powerful spirit who does not have to have a body.

Like Adam and you and me, this particular angel (who became the devil) could chose to love God and stay in His presence or to reject God and leave His presence forever. This particular angel chose to leave and therefore he became known as the devil or Satan.

When the devil saw that Adam had the chance to remain in God’s presence, he became jealous and decided to tempt Adam to reject God. Since the devil was still a powerful spirit, he could easily get into the garden.
Didn’t God put everything in the Garden?
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Everything includes quite a lot of stuff. Since we know that the garden was a place of peace and beauty, we can be sure that just the right amount of stuff was in it. There could have been leftover stuff which would be part of the universe. But stuff is not the important thing. What is really important is that God was in the garden and Adam and later his descendents, us, would be able to share in God’s life through knowledge of Him and by loving Him.
Didn’t He send the devil to Hell so how did he get out?
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Remember that the devil chose to reject God and leave His presence forever. He was still a powerful spirit. We really don’t know much about how the devil as a spirit moves or travels. Yet, no matter where the devil went, he still had the ability to tempt humans into sin.

But – listen up – this is not the end of the story. Even though Adam sinned, God did not abandon him. God searched for the sorrowful Adam and immediately promised him and us, as Adam’s descendents, a Redeemer. God so loved us, that He sent His Son, Jesus Christ.
(John 3: 16-17)

This is why we are Catholic. Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church so He could always be with us in the Holy Eucharist. He gave us seven Sacraments to help us on our journey to heaven. Heaven is the perfect garden of peace and beauty because we will be with God and see Him and know Him and love Him as He truly is. It is hard to imagine, but we will be right there with God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Amazing!

Blessings,
granny

Catholic teaching **regarding Adam, the devil, and sin **is found in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 355-421.

The good news of Jesus Christ follows in Paragraph 422, etc.

One can put paragraph numbers and topics such as Adam, etc. in the Catechism’s search bar in link www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
 
patg said:
As the catechism states, the story speaks in figurative language. The snake is simply a character in the story.
Click to expand...
For those interested in Catholic teachings, here is the actual statement referred to in the above quote.
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition
Paragraph 390* – The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.
*
Blessings,
granny

Catholic teaching **regarding Adam and the Devil **is found in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 355-421.

The good news of Jesus Christ follows in Paragraph 422, etc.

One can put paragraph numbers and topics such as Adam, etc. in the Catechism’s search bar in link www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
 
Marc_Anthony said:
I have a semi-related question.

If Adam and Eve walked and talked with God in the Garden of Eden, doesn’t that mean they saw the Beatific Vision? And seeing the Beatific Vision supposedly takes precedence over all temptation to sin, which is why there is no sin in Heaven.

So how did Adam and Eve sin in the Garden of Eden?
Click to expand...
Sometimes the Garden of Eden is referred to as paradise. The New Testament situates the true Paradise, not as a place on earth, but in a supernatural and heavenly realm. Paradise is the dwelling place of God, the abode of the saints, where Jesus and the good thief went after death. (see “Paradise” in Catholic Bible Dictionary, Scott Hahn, General Editor,
ISBN: 978-0-385-51229-9)

One can look at Adam’s garden as the first kind of paradise, where God is present. Those who go to Eucharistic Adoration often feel they are in heaven because Jesus is truly present in the Blessed Sacrament before them. Just as we can leave the Chapel and give in to road rage on the way home, Adam could choose his own kind of “rage” by scorning his Creator and thus committing the first sin.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.
 
patg said:
Actually, the “devil” is not referred to at all or mentioned by any name in the story of the couple in the garden.
Click to expand...
This is the problem of Sola Scriptura and extreme fundamentalist thinking.
 
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