Devotion To Mary

[Lief_Erikson]

To make sure I understand you correctly, you have no biblical answer, correct? Am I right in saying that your problem involves understanding and obeying the Word of God—Scripture? Nowhere in Scripture have you addressed any of my questions. Therefore, by going outside of Scripture and relying of the traditions of men, you are relying on uninspired documentation from uninspired writers.

Don’t be silly. You’re insisting that he depend on the Bible for answers based on a Sola Scriptura premise that is itself nothing more than extra-biblical tradition.

Also, why don’t you think it is even possible that 1500 years of Christianity was wrong?

Jesus said to Peter, “Upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hell will not overcome it.” If 1500 years of Christianity was wrong, Hell would have most certainly overcome it, even if just for a very long time. Christ would be a liar. But it is not Christ who is the liar. It is Satan that is the liar, he who tricks people into thinking that the Church Jesus founded has been led astray. In this way he leads people away from the Church in which they can find eternal life.

What if it turns out that Christianity is around for 20,000 years before Christ returns? If it does, 1500 years of it would just be a blip on the map—the starting point in which there was much confusion and disagreement until we finally got it right much later.

1500 years is a long time, more than half the time Israel existed as a kingdom. This kind of relativistic toying with time is nonsense. Your claims make a lie, also, of Jesus’ words, “when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth.” If what you’re saying is true, the Spirit came at Pentecost- and guided the Church into overwhelming error and idolatry that lasted over a thousand years. Protestantism originated in the 1500’s, one more heresy in a long line of them, though it’s the most popular in our present time.

As for the “oneness” Jesus called for, His instruction was to “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.” This is what I have done, and if Catholics reading this right now have also done this, then I would consider them brothers; even though the RCC has anathematized me several times over.

And He says participate in the Eucharist and you’ll be saved, and be baptized and you’ll be saved, and be born again and you’ll be saved. And James said faith without works is dead; works too are necessary. So is unity with the Church- according to Psalms (81 I believe?) all the children are born within the walls of Zion. The Church is the New Zion, so salvation must be found within her walls, our souls are born in her alone. Faith is also part of the way to salvation. You’re very much oversimplifying the Bible in your tradition.

Just speak with any number of Catholics over time and you will find out that there is as much disunity as humanly possible.

The heresy and disobedience of many in no way defiles the faithfulness and obedience of those that stand true to Christ’s teachings. The true followers of Christ in the Church remain one in faith, even if many that were part of their community sever themselves from it.

You believe much the same about Christianity, I’ll warrant. You believe, I expect, that there are true Christians and fake Christians, Christians who hold true to Christ’s teachings and Christians who abandon the true faith while still calling themselves “Christian.” You believe those who remain faithful are one in spirit.

For us, true Catholics are one in faith as well as in spirit. There is one faith.
Ephesians 4:3-6:

Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

There is, in the Catholic Church, one Body, one faith, one Spirit. Many Catholics sever themselves from it through heresy and rejection of the Church’s teaching. They are not one with the Church anymore because they break from it- though they can be restored through Confession and the Blessed Sacrament. You are confusing those who have separated themselves from the Church with those that are united to what the Church has infallibly proclaimed, and making believe we say they are all one when they actually are not, because that makes your case easier. Though you’re actually committing a straw man fallacy, which is annoying, as I think you’d know better if you’d open your ears to what Catholics have been telling you about their religion and listen to what we’re trying to tell you about what we believe.

Sorry- I know I’m being terse right now but I am annoyed. Both because you’re ignoring us and because you’re attacking what is so pure and so very lovely. Also because I’m short on patience tonight, I suppose.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Ask one question about any given issue, and there will be just as many different responses from Catholics as grains of sand on the seashore. There is not even unity with big social issues like abortion. 61% of registered Catholic voters voted for the most pro-abortion candidate in U.S. history this past election—contrary to the official position of the church. Sure, you can disagree with them until you’re blue in the face, but that will not change the fact that differing beliefs abound everywhere—especially among Catholics.

That Gallup Poll is usually cited in a very ludicrous fashion. In fact, the number of Catholics faithful to the Church’s moral teachings on all the moral issues doubles if you only take into account the ones that are attending Mass as the Church tells them to.
It’s the unfaithful Catholics that are actively disobeying the Church – usually secular Catholics or liberals rather than real believers – who are dragging down the statistics and making everyone else look bad through their many errors. Once a person is baptized Catholic as an infant, the Church, to my knowledge, never erases that person from the register even if he or she becomes an atheist.

But even if all that wasn’t true and the statistics you’re citing were accurate, even if there were a billion so-called Catholics full of unbelief and divisions, this would not change the teaching of the Church’s unity. Even if there were only five Catholics left in the world who were true to the Church’s teachings and there were a billion that were unfaithful and divided, those five would remain one in faith, real Catholics where the others remain separate by their own choice and deceived. The Church’s unity cannot be broken by men- men can only break themselves from it.

To put it simply, I choose not to follow the traditions of men, but rather the inspired words of Jesus, the apostles and prophets as they have been preserved for us. Much of this “Sacred Tradition” is what leads to much of the doctrinal error I have seen for so long.

You are following traditions of men. All the Protestant interpretations of the Bible are their interpretations, interpretations made by human beings, “traditions of men.” There are a vast variety of them, many contradictory. Hence the tens of thousands of denominations. And this is considered valid within Protestantism. Within Catholicism, there is “one faith.” People can hold to it as the Church teaches it or they can call themselves Catholic while actually living as heretics because they’re doing their own thing. I’m tired of telling you this, though. You seem determined to ignore and ignore what we tell you about our beliefs, so that you can live in your anti-Catholic shell.

I find statements like this quite disturbing and even worse, umbilical in nature:

“To me She is the perfect Mother. Most of what I do is for Her. I try to do all for Her , but am not perfect. She seems very much like a Mother to me rather than a Queen. I know She’s a Queen, and the greatest, but all Her dealings with me show the most tender maternal care. I can’t praise Her enough.”

So we should give her “praise?” Isn’t praise interchangeable with worship? Yet I just read a post which denies that Mary is worshipped at all.

I praise you for thinking carefully about your faith and taking it seriously. But I don’t worship you.

When people begin to say things like this, I am left scratching my head where all this is coming from. Once again, prove me wrong from Scripture that Mary is nothing more than a dead sinner that does not even know you exist. That is my position. Check out Ecclesiastes 9:5: “For the living know that they will die, but THE DEAD KNOW NOTHING; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.”

This refers to their lives on Earth. In the flesh, they know nothing and do not have a part under the sun. Solomon does not claim to know anything about what happens to their spirits. He wrote in Ecclesiasties 3:21, “Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”

Further, where do we find that Mary cooperates with Christ for the salvation of men?

The Annunciation, Luke 1. Also in her unity with the suffering Christ we become her children, her bearing us into the world through this spiritual pain. John 19:26–27 calls on “the disciple,” who represents all of us, to behold her as our Mother.

Where do we even find that she was apparently sinless and was bodily assumed into heaven?

Many places, nowhere explicit, but prophetically referred to repeatedly in the Old Testament and in the New. I don’t agree with all the references in this website, but it contains some that make a lot of sense.
scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html

 

[Lief_Erikson]

These are foreign concepts to Scripture. But then again, Scripture is apparently not followed or it is outright ignored in the RCC. It is one thing to choose to go outside of Scripture for your additional authority, but it’s quite another to accept an authority WHICH SIMULTANEOULY CONTRADICTS the Bible. That is what is happening here.

That is something you have failed to demonstrate. And when you try to demonstrate it, you’ll be depending upon your fallible human opinion about the Scripture, which reduces your idea to one more “tradition of men.” It is because Protestantism consists of traditions of men, eroneous scripture interpretations as well as some accurate ones that come from inherited Tradition of the Catholic Church, that it shatters doctrinally in a million directions. Faithless Catholics leave the unity of the Church when they divide from it into the heresies you keep throwing in our faces. Even if they continue to consider themselves Catholics, if they’ve abandoned or rejected the Church’s teachings, they are heretics, not participating in the unity of the Church to the extent that they separate themselves from it. Thus they do not damage that spiritual unity. They simply leave it. But the faithful who remain true to the Church’s teachings continue to have fulfilled in them what St. Paul preached, that we have “one faith.”

As for the others, and this includes Protestants, as Jesus says, “He who does not gather with Me scatters” (Matt. 12:30).

The Church remains one, and the gates of Hell have not overcome it. No challenges to its faith will defeat it, because the Holy Spirit continues to fulfill in it His promise that He would guide it into all truth. Praise be to the Living God.

narrowpath:

I believe Peter got his authority to raise the dead from Christ. That was easy enough. So where do we find supernatural characteristics being given to Mary by Christ Himself? That is the question. I find it nowhere in Scripture. To say that He did means nothing unless and until you qualify the assertion with the biblical text……and you have not.

NONSENSE. You are basing this again off a wholly unscriptural Sola Scriptura perspective, trying to lock Catholics into your premise: That Scripture is all we should rely on. We believe in the equal authority of Sacred Tradition, so no one on this thread that is a Catholic needs to use Scripture-proof for anything they say. You’re trying to lock us into a false ideology with your insistence that we base our answers always on the Bible. We could- almost everything there is in the Catholic faith seems to be present in the Bible, or at least I’ve found that to be true. But that is irrelevant! Because Sacred Tradition and the Sacred Magesterium are enough in and of themselves- if one of us cited a dogma of an Ecumenical Council, that person’s citation would be strong enough to stand on its own.

All I have to do, in keeping with my Catholic faith, is cite the Marian dogmas already unveiled by the Catholic Church. Her Immaculate Conception, Perpetual Virginity and Assumption into Heaven are dogma already. They happen to all be in Scripture as well, implicitly referred to both in Old Testament prophecy and in some New Testament passages, but even if there were no scriptural grounds, that wouldn’t matter. We trust the word of God, the word revealed by God through His Sacred Magesterium and through His Sacred Tradition AS WELL as through the Scripture. And we will believe these other sources faithfully. Your attempt to make us rely on the human traditions of the Reformation, the Sola Scriptura nonsense, in order to structure our replies is an attempt to undercut Catholic faith by squeezing it subtly into accepting without justification your Protestant premise.

This is contrary to OUR premises, the premises of the Church that enable us to live in our faith with great confidence, rather than with the uncertainty of figuring out our faith for ourselves. We have faith in what we believe to be infallible: The teachings of the Church. You have faith in what you know to be fallible: Your own private scripture interpretations. You can keep your scripture interpretations. They are passing. They have not existed until about 500 years ago, and considering the incredible rate of Protestantism’s present disintegration, they won’t be around all that many generations longer. Perhaps another couple hundred years. The truth in the Catholic Church, on the other hand, has stood and will keep standing, as Protestantism has not. And if you know how different the “essentials of Christianity” were to original Reformers from what they are to today’s Protestants, you’ll know what I mean. If Luther could look forward to our era and see Protestantism today, he’d think all was lost. Protestantism’s “essentials of Christianity” have been shrinking for hundreds of years and in our own generation we can especially clearly see that shrinking effect on the faith’s “essentials,” for it’s happening in a radical way in our lifespan. The speed rate of Protestantism’s disintegration seems to be greatly increasing, probably because of the non-denominational movement, today’s liberalism in Christianity, and the influence of the world’s growing number of non-Christians.

narrowpath:

To call her the “queen of heaven” or “mother of us all” or “co-redeemer” or “co-mediatrix”, etc. goes WELL BEYOND Scripture.

Once again, I am noticing that Scripture is absent from these answers.

Supposing that that was true . . . so what?

 

[Lief_Erikson]

narrowpath:

Actually, I have read a whole lot of Catholic material. I always find it interesting to find out why people believe what they do. To answer your question directly, I do not see Mary as holy or a queen in any sense. And, I certainly would not preface her name with “hail” for that is a term of worship.

You really don’t belong in this thread, then. This is not the apologetics forum. This is the spirituality forum. It’s for discussion of our spiritual lives and devotions, not for argumentation. You aren’t willing to listen either; you are here to debate and try to change people’s minds. That isn’t what this forum is for. It is for the development and nourishment of spiritual lives.

narrowpath:

Therefore, I don’t think a book of that nature would be beneficial to my spiritual walk and relationship with Christ. I will say that I do see her as being blessed for the opportunity to bring Christ into the world. I think she was very humble and obedient—attributes to be commended for. But that is where it ends for me.

There is no purpose in your being here, then, except to argue. Am I wrong?

 

[benedictus2]

I believe Peter got his authority to raise the dead from Christ. That was easy enough. So where do we find supernatural characteristics being given to Mary by Christ Himself? That is the question. I find it nowhere in Scripture. To say that He did means nothing unless and until you qualify the assertion with the biblical text……and you have not.

Read the account of the Wedding at Cana.

Jesus said it was not His time when Mary told Him that they had no wine. He even said what does it have to do with you and me.

But notice what happens next straight after He said it was not His time.

The following line just has Mary saying to the servants : Do what He tells you. There was no discussion of whether He should or should not help. Mary was confident His Son will listen to her. Then Jesus performs His FIRST miracle OUTSIDE OF HIS TIME.

Think about it, Mary’s intercession SO MOVED GOD, that He performed His first miracle OUTSIDE OF HIS TIME.

She herself did not perform the miracle but at her pleading GOD DID.

The sad thing about your unbelief is that you are like the wedding couple. They did not have to ask Mary. Mary was just observant and solicitous for their happiness so without being asked she intercedes for them.

And she does the same thing to all of us. The only difference is we recognize her concern for our welfare both temporal and spiritual, you don’t.

**She Mothers us all. We recognize that and give thanks. You don’t. **

 

[TracyJ]

I love all the Marian songs but Bring Flowers of the Fairest and Hail Holy Queen are my
favorites.

Does anyone here have a Mary Garden, if so what flowers and herbs do you have?

As far as justifying Mary to a person who doesn’t understand Catholics devotion to her,
I really can’t do that. If they read the Hail Mary prayer they will see that we do not ADORE Mary, we just ask her help.

I don’t think that a devotion to Mary is necessary for salvation, but she helps me along the
way, she answers prayers and she prays for me.

I would only ask that a fellow Christian RESPECT Mary because she is the mother
of Jesus. As for my Jewish friends, I like to point out that God must have thought that Jewish Mothers were terrific since He chose one for His own son.

 

[Cinette]

I love all the Marian songs but Bring Flowers of the Fairest and Hail Holy Queen are my
favorites.

Does anyone here have a Mary Garden, if so what flowers and herbs do you have?

As far as justifying Mary to a person who doesn’t understand Catholics devotion to her,
I really can’t do that. If they read the Hail Mary prayer they will see that we do not ADORE Mary, we just ask her help.

I don’t think that a devotion to Mary is necessary for salvation, but she helps me along the
way, she answers prayers and she prays for me.

I would only ask that a fellow Christian RESPECT Mary because she is the mother
of Jesus. As for my Jewish friends, I like to point out that God must have thought that Jewish Mothers were terrific since He chose one for His own son.

What do you mean “she answers prayers”??

 

[joe370]

Narrow_path, it sounds like you are very proud of your faith and your church… Perhaps you could share with all the church to which you belong?

 

[joe370]

narrow_path;5193817]As I understand it, this forum allows for those of other persuasions and convictions to communicate their views as well. In short, I am a committed Christian who finds much of the Catholic dogma quite unconvincing. The Marian doctrines are certainly no exception. Therefore, if I may, I have a number of questions for those willing to answer…

**If you give us the name of your church perhaps we can learn something about her dogmas, and why you believe what you believe, as well; what ya think?
**

When I have read through the gospels, I have yet to find a single occurrence where Jesus commands or even suggests that we should be venerating Mary (Marian devotion).

**Why would it? The bible is a collection of books geared toward steering you closer to Christ not His blessed mother. Jesus’ blessed mother is not your savior; Jesus is! Now, do you believe that Mary is in heaven with her Son? Do you believe that she can hear your prayers if you asked her to pray for you, as I am sure you do with your fellow Christians? Do you believe that the prayers of your fellow Christian, who is a sinner, here on earth, are more efficacious than the prayers of the mother of God, who is not only sinless but much closer to God than your sinful friend? Honor and devotion to the mother of God is the most natural thing to do. Why wouldn’t I honor and esteem the most exceptionally singular and anomalous human being, bar none! She was the new ark of the covenant created by God 2000 years ago, to bring His Son into this wicked world. We all know how much God abhors sin; he abandoned man-kind because of the stain of sin. Yet, for 9 months His blood commingled with Mary’s blood! Do you really think that God would literally become one with sinful flesh?
**

Could anyone provide one? In fact, have the Catholics on this particular thread read through the gospels in their entirety yet?

Yup and I am still looking for the passage that says: sacred scripture is all sufficient!


Some may not have—and that’s OK—I’m just wondering. If you have, do you think Mary’s role was prominent in the gospels? If so, give me some examples.

**The blessed mother Mary did not die on the cross for your sins; Jesus did. The bible, safeguarded and eventually given to you by the C.C. points to Jesus, just as the mother of God does. She does this through fervent prayer; she, as the mother of God, is a mighty prayer warrior and she loves you more than you will ever know! How could she not considering the fact that she was literally one with the Word, Who is perfect Love, as per the bible, for 9 months; no human was/is closer to Jesus than His mother Mary; surely you must concur? Remember, if Mary is the mother of Jesus and Jesus is your spiritual brother, then Mary is your spiritual mother --right? **

I have read Scott Hahn’s reply to Marian devotion and find it once again—unconvincing.

**Of course you do; it challenges your belief system!

**
He says the following factors offer an argument for the veneration of Mary:

1. Christ obeyed the law perfectly
2. the Ten Commandments sum up that law
3. one Commandment reads, “Honor your father and mother”
4. because Christ fulfills the law, He fulfills that commandment;
5. hence, Christ bestows honor and glory upon His mother;
6. we are called to imitate Christ

Makes perfect sense to me!

If this is not a stretch, then I don’t know what is! Sure Christ obeyed the law perfectly and the Ten Commandments sum up that law. And, yes, the fourth Commandment is to “honor your father and mother.” So as I see it, it is true that Christ fulfilled this Commandment and bestowed honor upon His mother (just as all human beings are called to do). However, when I look at what the RCC ACTUALLY DOES with Mary is something radically different. It is no secret that Rome has given Mary a god-like status and exultation that Scripture (especially Jesus) did not.

**Please show me the official documentation that says: the C.C. gives Mary, the mother of God, a god-like status? You are starting to sound like my sister - so silly!!!
**

Where in Scripture does Jesus EXHALT His mother? It seems to me that He consistently downplays His relationship with her (Luke 11:28-29).

*"While he was speaking, a woman from the crowd called out and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that carried you and the breasts at which you nursed.” He replied, “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”

**Which is more important for your salvation: Mary, a mere human at the time, who carried her Son…or the words of God? Jesus is not downplaying His mother; He is merely emphasizing the truth!

“My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior; Because He has regarded the lowliness of His handmaid; for behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed; Because He who is mighty has done great things for me, and Holy is His Name…”*** Luke 1

Mary was saved at the moment of her conception, so that God could be one with flesh; I believed this, even as a former Lutheran, as Martin Luther did. How do you think Mary’s soul in heaven magnifies the Lord? What do you think she meant by: regarded the lowliness of His handmaid? Why don’t protestants ever obey scripture by referring to her as blessed? What is meant by: He who is mighty has done great things for me; what are these great things my friend?

continued…

 

[joe370]

Further, I am aware that while the Hebrew word for honor (kabad) has a secondary meaning of “to glorify”, its primary meaning is “to honor” which is the meaning in Exodus 20:12. What follows is that this word certainly does not connote giving god-like worship to a “co-redeemer”, “co-mediatrix”, “Queen of heaven”, etc. as I understand it. If possible, will someone please provide me with an answer of biblical substance? Thanks very much.

Again, the bible is all about Jesus Christ, not the mother of Jesus Christ! Worshiping the mother of God would be idolatry. Loving, adoring and exhibiting a special devotion to the mother of God would be exactly what her Son would want, but if you don’t want to regard the lowliness of His handmaid, the most unique human being that ever walked the earth, as God did, then don’t! :thumbsup:The blessed Mary is a co-mediatrix because of her fervent and perfect prayers (as opposed to our imperfect prayers) - in heaven; this is a no brainer! In the O.T. the mother of the king was called the queen. Therefore it only stands to reason that, If Jesus is the king of kings then the blessed mother is the queen of queens.

 

[joe370]

I love all the Marian songs but Bring Flowers of the Fairest and Hail Holy Queen are my
favorites.

Does anyone here have a Mary Garden, if so what flowers and herbs do you have?

As far as justifying Mary to a person who doesn’t understand Catholics devotion to her,
I really can’t do that. If they read the Hail Mary prayer they will see that we do not ADORE Mary, we just ask her help.

I don’t think that a devotion to Mary is necessary for salvation, but she helps me along the
way, she answers prayers and she prays for me.

I would only ask that a fellow Christian RESPECT Mary because she is the mother
of Jesus. As for my Jewish friends, I like to point out that God must have thought that Jewish Mothers were terrific since He chose one for His own son.

Hi Tracy…I adore the mother of God just as I adore my own mother and just as I adore my fiancée, who is in heaven! But perhaps that word is too loaded for our protestant brothers and sisters; perhaps you are right and honor and respect are more appropriate words when dealing with non-Catholics.

Definition of adore:

1) to regard with the utmost esteem, love, and respect; honor.
2) to pay divine honor to; worship: to adore God.

Number one is the appropriate adoration to the mother of God; number 2 is the appropriate adoration to God. Tracy, I agree with everything you’ve said with one exception: the part about answering prayers. The blessed mother Mary is a humble prayer warrior, the most quintessential of all prayer warriors when it comes to the human race, but her supplications can only be answered by God --wouldn’t you agree?

 

[eli1118]

Hi Friends,
This is a beautiful thread. I have always loved Mother Mary. I began my devotion to her by taking flowers to our Lady of Guadalupe many years ago. Of course, after my mom’s death 9 years ago I went astray.
However, after becoming a mommy as well almost 3 years ago I believe she brought me back b/c she knew how important it is for my son to lover her son.
I pray out of the Mary Day by Day book and think of her often. I always ask her to guide me to be a good mother and to take my prayers to her son who I love.
I would love to know what books you guys suggest to read about Mary.
Blessings to all,
Eli

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Hi Tracy…I adore the mother of God just as I adore my own mother and just as I adore my fiancée, who is in heaven! But perhaps that word is too loaded for our protestant brothers and sisters; perhaps you are right and honor and respect are more appropriate words when dealing with non-Catholics.

Definition of adore:

1) to regard with the utmost esteem, love, and respect; honor.
2) to pay divine honor to; worship: to adore God.

Number one is the appropriate adoration to the mother of God; number 2 is the appropriate adoration to God. Tracy, I agree with everything you’ve said with one exception: the part about answering prayers. The blessed mother Mary is a humble prayer warrior, the most quintessential of all prayer warriors when it comes to the human race, but her supplications can only be answered by God --wouldn’t you agree?

I think the same difference between those meanings of “adore” sometimes exist in the use of the word “worship.” Sometimes “worship” has been used according to the first definition of adore, though today the second meaning is a lot more common.

Catholics seem to usually think of the second definition when they consider Mary, which is why this term is basically forbidden. There also is risk of confusion among onlookers if one was to use this word according to def. 1, just as there would be among others if we used the term “worship.” Using the term is not worth the confusion, I suppose. There’s too much confusion everywhere among non-Catholics, about Marian devotion, already .

 

[joe370]

Narrow path, you said:

"… problem involves understanding and obeying the Word of God—Scripture? Nowhere in Scripture have you addressed any of my questions. Therefore, by going outside of Scripture and relying of the traditions of men, you are relying on uninspired documentation from uninspired writers. Also, why don’t you think it is even possible that 1500 years of Christianity was wrong? Judaism is far older than Christianity, yet still to this day it is basically an anti-Christ religion. What if it turns out that Christianity is around for 20,000 years before Christ returns? If it does, 1500 years of it would just be a blip on the map—the starting point in which there was much confusion and disagreement until we finally got it right much later."

Which church in the world today is properly obeying the word of God? Is Jesus’ church which is being guided by the Holy Spirit, as per scripture, the pillar and foundation of truth, or is your bible the pillar and foundation of truth according to the bible? Did Jesus tell His followers to take it to the bible to solve unresolvable issues, or, to actual teachers comprising His One church? Catholics do not think it is possible that Jesus’ One church to which He is the head and Savior, could have been wrong vis-a-vis all that Jesus commanded for the 1st 1500 years of Christianity for one simple reason: the Holy Spirit is her Divine rudder, guiding her through every century, as per sacred scripture! The difference between Judaism and Christianity is quite stark. God became man and promised to His one church which was born on Pentecost, that even His worse enemy would NEVER defeat His church, and God cannot lie; it’s that simple my friend! If the C.C. is no longer part of Jesus Mystical Body, then your church is not either, for your church was built by a mere man; the C.C. was built by Jesus. If not the C.C., then which church built by Jesus on Pentecost, spanned the centuries for the first 1000 years of Christianity??? The Holy Spirit was sent to just one assembly of teachers who were given the ministry of reconciliation, on Pentecost to be fishers of men and they are guided by Holy Spirit perpetuity.

One church received power from God. Thanks to the perpetual guidance of the Holy Spirit, she started witnessing first in Jerusalem, then throughout Judea and Samaria, and eventually to the ends of the earth;p she doesn’t have her origin in the U.S.:

“But you will receive power when the holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” Acts 1

One church was told to teach all that Jesus commanded, until His return. When He returns do you think He will be happy to see His Mystical Body so terribly fractured? Is the Holy Spirit guiding each respective church into opposing truths, or was He to guide just one church into all truth?

“Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations…teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

Jesus said the following to just one body of believers:

“The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.” Luke 10

"He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me. Matthew 10

Today we see thousands of isolated bodies of believers, all claiming that this passage applies to them. You however claim that Jesus’ Body is invisible if I remember correctly, and that this applies to the one invisible church; correct me if I am wrong. If that is the case then please help me about regarding the following scenario:

The Lutheran church to which I once belonged, believes in the symbolic interpretation of John 6 and the Lutheran church to which my friend belongs, believes in the literal interpretation; both churches can’t both be right. Each person claims that the other church teaches erroneously vis-a-vis the last supper, and both derive their suppositions from the infallible word of God. Neither of them will ever concede that the other is right, so why should I believe that the Bible is our sole rule of faith considering the fact that it gives way to two opposing truths? They can’t just agree to disagree; one of them is right, and it does matter!

Jesus said to just one very visible assembly of believers, comprised of 12 very visible men:

“When he, the Spirit of truth has come, he will guide you into all truth.” John 16:13

One assembly of very visible brothers in Christ, were given the ministry of reconciliation on Pentecost, to mediate on behalf of our one and only Savior, in His absence, which consists of both teacher and pupil. Again, what was the name of that assembly for the first 1500 years of Christianity?

“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.” 2 Corinth 5

 

[joe370]

I believe Peter got his authority to raise the dead from Christ. That was easy enough. So where do we find supernatural characteristics being given to Mary by Christ Himself? That is the question. I find it nowhere in Scripture. To say that He did means nothing unless and until you qualify the assertion with the biblical text……and you have not.

**Once we are with God in heaven, you really don’t think it will be possible to see through God’s eyes? I think this is the reason why you and I will never see eye to eye, but that’s cool. You view your bible as the ultimate benchmark, which has led to all of the division in the protestant world over the course of 500 years, and I view Jesus’ established church as the ultimate benchmark as per sacred scripture, which has kept her, as the bride of Christ, one and united for 2000 years! The C.C. passes the litmus test of unity; the P.C.‘s do not. If they did, they would be one and united. The Holy Spirit did not fail to keep Jesus’ church one; men failed!

A friend of mine at work who is an atheist once said: the reason I don’t embrace Christianity is simple; it failed! I asked him what he meant and he said: God could certainly keep His church one, but He didn’t, therefore the church is not of God. And I said: you mean, outside the one C.C.; he looked into the matter and said: I stand corrected, but he is still a committed atheist to this day. My point is: Jesus conferred power on His church, not on a book. Taking disputes to the church has worked for 2000 years; taking disputes to the bible has failed, almost immediately. **

 

[narrow_path]

Hello Joe 370

Joe 370 says: “Which church in the world today is properly obeying the word of God? Is Jesus’ church which is being guided by the Holy Spirit, as per scripture, the pillar and foundation of truth, or is your bible the pillar and foundation of truth according to the bible? Did Jesus tell His followers to take it to the bible to solve unresolvable issues, or, to actual teachers comprising His One church? Catholics do not think it is possible that Jesus’ One church to which He is the head and Savior, could have been wrong vis-a-vis all that Jesus commanded for the 1st 1500 years of Christianity for one simple reason: the Holy Spirit is her Divine rudder, guiding her through every century, as per sacred scripture! The difference between Judaism and Christianity is quite stark. God became man and promised to His one church which was born on Pentecost, that even His worse enemy would NEVER defeat His church, and God cannot lie; it’s that simple my friend! If the C.C. is no longer part of Jesus Mystical Body, then your church is not either, for your church was built by a mere man; the C.C. was built by Jesus. If not the C.C., then which church built by Jesus on Pentecost, spanned the centuries for the first 1000 years of Christianity??? The Holy Spirit was sent to just one assembly of teachers who were given the ministry of reconciliation, on Pentecost to be fishers of men and they are guided by Holy Spirit perpetuity.”

Apparently, Joe you like to argue in a circle, just as you did in our last encounter. To answer your question (once again), NO church is FULLY and PROPERLY obeying the Word of God because churches are full of imperfect people. And because there are no perfect churches, ALL have some doctrinal error in them–including mine. This is why it simply will not matter what church we belong to in the end–what matters is if we KNOW the Savior who died in our place. It has NOTHING to do with so-called “authority” of a hierarchical institution whose history should be embarrassing to anyone who is familiar with it. You have been told the Catholic lie and bought it–I have chosen not to buy it. How scary it is to know that the very so-called establishment of the RCC is based on only a few passages–one in particular–whose interpretation is suspect. If Christ actually established the RCC, we would find this fact reiterated over and over again throughout the pages of Scripture–but instead we find evidence to the contrary.

I fully acknowledge that the origin of the church I currently attend had a spirit-indwelt believer as its founder. However, I would much rather to have had a man to have founded my church than to be part of an institution that Christ never even established to begin with. This has resulted in the Scripture PLUS an “infallible interpreter” idea which has wreaked doctrinal havoc on the unsuspecting masses. Sad indeed.

 

[narrow_path]

Hi there Leif, you say:

“I think the same difference between those meanings of “adore” sometimes exist in the use of the word “worship.” Sometimes “worship” has been used according to the first definition of adore, though today the second meaning is a lot more common. Catholics seem to usually think of the second definition when they consider Mary, which is why this term is basically forbidden. There also is risk of confusion among onlookers if one was to use this word according to def. 1, just as there would be among others if we used the term “worship.” Using the term is not worth the confusion, I suppose. There’s too much confusion everywhere among non-Catholics, about Marian devotion, already.”

I see this statement as quite ironic and it further solidified the point I have made from the beginning. After reading all of the posts since my last one, it is crystal clear to me that there is serious confusion among Catholics concerning Marian devotion. Some say Praise equals worship and adore equals worship, others disagree. There is no consensus! Yet, people like myself are supposed to believe that Catholics worldwide are in some kind of “unity” of doctrine?? Perhaps a reality check is in order……

Anyway, what troubles me about the RCC view of Mary is that she is viewed as the female counterpart to God (Jesus) Himself! Jesus was born without sin—just as Mary supposedly was conceived without original sin. Jesus lived a perfect, sinless life while on earth—yet, the RCC insists Mary did too. Jesus ascended into heaven after His resurrection—Mary is apparently bodily assumed into heaven. Jesus is Mediator—Mary is mediatrix. Jesus is the Redeemer—Mary is said to be co-redeemer. Jesus is the King of heaven—Mary is the supposed Queen of heaven. The reason why I find this so creepy is because NONE of these ideas are even remotely suggested by Scripture. But then again, I have been told by Catholics that I am looking in the wrong place for answers—Scripture.

 

[narrow_path]

Joe 370 continues:

“Once we are with God in heaven, you really don’t think it will be possible to see through God’s eyes? I think this is the reason why you and I will never see eye to eye, but that’s cool. You view your bible as the ultimate benchmark, which has led to all of the division in the protestant world over the course of 500 years, and I view Jesus’ established church as the ultimate benchmark as per sacred scripture, which has kept her, as the bride of Christ, one and united for 2000 years! The C.C. passes the litmus test of unity; the P.C.‘s do not. If they did, they would be one and united. The Holy Spirit did not fail to keep Jesus’ church one; men failed! A friend of mine at work who is an atheist once said: the reason I don’t embrace Christianity is simple; it failed! I asked him what he meant and he said: God could certainly keep His church one, but He didn’t, therefore the church is not of God. And I said: you mean, outside the one C.C.; he looked into the matter and said: I stand corrected, but he is still a committed atheist to this day. My point is: Jesus conferred power on His church, not on a book. Taking disputes to the church has worked for 2000 years; taking disputes to the bible has failed, almost immediately.”

Once again, you are missing the point. The division in Protestant churches (at least the division actually worth dividing over) is in SECONDARY, NON-SALVIVIC issues. Hence, there is no division in essential doctrine officially. But do you know why this does not even matter to me? Because as I mention over and over, it WILL NOT MATTER what denomination (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox) we label ourselves with. You seem to think that it DOES matter. Why? The division in the RCC among its members is so abundant and diverse, why do you kid yourself that there is some sort of unity? A doctrinal statement does not equal unity UNLESS ALL the members of the church ACTUALLY KNOW AND BELIEVE it in their hearts. Once everyone who associates themselves under the Catholic banner believes ALL of the doctrines Rome teaches, THEN there will be unity. But of course, that will not happen. The unity spoken of in Scripture deals with the unity individuals share IN CHRIST. If you KNOW Christ, then you are my brother, and we have UNITY IN HIM. That is the only unity possible on this side of heaven. Your insistence on membership to a hierarchal institution is unimpressive and meaningless in the final analysis.

 

[narrow_path]

Joe 370 continues with yet more:

“Again, the bible is all about Jesus Christ, not the mother of Jesus Christ! Worshiping the mother of God would be idolatry. Loving, adoring and exhibiting a special devotion to the mother of God would be exactly what her Son would want, but if you don’t want to regard the lowliness of His handmaid, the most unique human being that ever walked the earth, as God did, then don’t! The blessed Mary is a co-mediatrix because of her fervent and perfect prayers (as opposed to our imperfect prayers) - in heaven; this is a no brainer! In the O.T. the mother of the king was called the queen. Therefore it only stands to reason that, If Jesus is the king of kings then the blessed mother is the queen of queens.”

To address your unsubstantiated claims, let me just say this: co-mediatrix is an utterly futile concept. You say it is a “no-brainer” but I wonder what must have happened to your brain to make this a “no-brainer.” First, where in Scripture do you get the idea that Mary is capable of praying for us? Keep in mind, when you “ask her” to pray for you, the very act of asking is communication—prayer. So, you are praying to the dead—someone that does not know you exist. The bottom line is that Mary CANNOT HELP ANYONE. She is a redeemed sinner, probably in heaven. Her role as mediatrix is fatally flawed when compared to passages like 1 Timothy 2:5: “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” Calling her a queen may give you a warm and fuzzy feeling inside, but it sure does not change the objective truth of Scripture.

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

Joe 370 continues with yet more:

“Again, the bible is all about Jesus Christ, not the mother of Jesus Christ! Worshiping the mother of God would be idolatry. Loving, adoring and exhibiting a special devotion to the mother of God would be exactly what her Son would want, but if you don’t want to regard the lowliness of His handmaid, the most unique human being that ever walked the earth, as God did, then don’t! The blessed Mary is a co-mediatrix because of her fervent and perfect prayers (as opposed to our imperfect prayers) - in heaven; this is a no brainer! In the O.T. the mother of the king was called the queen. Therefore it only stands to reason that, If Jesus is the king of kings then the blessed mother is the queen of queens.”

To address your unsubstantiated claims, let me just say this: co-mediatrix is an utterly futile concept. You say it is a “no-brainer” but I wonder what must have happened to your brain to make this a “no-brainer.” First, where in Scripture do you get the idea that Mary is capable of praying for us? Keep in mind, when you “ask her” to pray for you, the very act of asking is communication—prayer. So, you are praying to the dead—someone that does not know you exist. The bottom line is that Mary CANNOT HELP ANYONE. She is a redeemed sinner, probably in heaven. Her role as mediatrix is fatally flawed when compared to passages like 1 Timothy 2:5: “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” Calling her a queen may give you a warm and fuzzy feeling inside, but it sure does not change the objective truth of Scripture.

Narrow, you are claiming that Mary cannot help anyone based upon the theology you have worked out. Yet, we know taht she can help us based upon vast amounts of experience. You should look up Lourdes. There, even the atheists are at a loss to explain the miracles that have happened.