Devotion to Mary

[Karen107]

That’s what I mean, that I could ask Mary for intercession if she truly is sorta omniscient due to her presence in Heaven. However, some of the “prayers” or “requests” whatever you call it make me uncomfortable. And let’s face it, it’s a Catholic practice and I would be embarrassed to ever show anyone that said practice is my belief.

I think even if I could just accept what the CC teaches just because I choose to be submissive, I still would be ashamed to have anyone see me practicing what Catholics practice in regards to Mary. Therefore that would make me a hypocrite.

It is a practice of our beliefs and not all Catholics pray the rosary but you’ll find the most devout Catholics do because we’ve experienced the fruits of doing so. But what if we never had faith because we didn’t think it was socially acceptable as is going on in todays culture. We’re our saved from the trappings of the world through our faith, isn’t that what Christianity is about? If I worried every time people see me go to Church or be bothered about what people said about anything I do with the faith than it’s them who won and not God so to speak. It’s not easy practicing our faith in this world where so much about what we believe is made fun of or talked about. I do it for the man up above no matter what they say or misunderstand about my beliefs… I don’t need to apologize for what I believe in or worry. I can’t be a protestant because I believe what I believe and I know there are many who don’t see things the way I do though they try to get me to see things their way.

I can tell you when I was 10 years old my younger brother was just 7 and we knew he had a heart problem. We’d pray the rosary at my neighbors house and specifically dedicated the prayer to my brother. My brother made it though 2 heart surgeries and is today the father of 3. I would say that that rosary prayer saved both my brother and me because it was the rosary that taught me that God is in heaven with Mary and the Saints and angels and they all look out for us… It’s as a child I was given this great gift and I will always be drawn back to my faith as a child no matter how old I am.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Ah I see. From the Catholic perspective, the Marian doctrines don’t take our focus off of Christ but actually preserve important teachings about Him.

So we don’t see them as secondary or periphery in the same way Lutherans do, which is why we aren’t at liberty to deny or ignore them.

Yes and Lutherans uphold belief that is not necessarily supported by Scripture. Luther cautioned the faithful to not refer to Mary as the Queen of Heaven too often and ask God’s favor to call upon Mary to pray for us. It is a very humble approach typical of Lutherans.

 

[JRKH]

Glad this has been explained because I needed clarification that a Catholic in good standing could opt out of devotions to Mary but must uphold the infallibility of these beliefs.

For Lutherans, Orthodox, Anglicans, these are acceptable beliefs but we don’t require that everyone accept them. Secondary to our focus on Christ.

Color me confused…Do you think that we are saying that a Catholic can “opt out” of these beliefs? If so then I apologize…that was not my intent. Of course a Catholic must accept these teachings as true.
Why would one wish to “opt out” of an infallibly declared truth?

Peace
James

 

[Karen107]

We come pretty close in theology but are still far apart in practice and expression, I am afraid as a Lutheran.

But clearly I now understand that a Catholic must affirm these beliefs as dogma while other Christians don’t.

I have to even think about that statement…’ Catholics must affirm these beliefs as dogma’…and I’m a Catholic…

How about… Catholics believe these things,

Maybe that’s the faith we get from the Father…You know like the faith that Abraham had…and it’s lovely to believe these things…

I dunno… I think it’s the people outside of the faith that seem to have such a hard time believing what we believe because in their teachings they are taught something different about what a Catholic believes and often it’s not what we believe at all…

 

[TheSurvivor]

That’s what I mean, that I could ask Mary for intercession if she truly is sorta omniscient due to her presence in Heaven. However, some of the “prayers” or “requests” whatever you call it make me uncomfortable. And let’s face it, it’s a Catholic practice and I would be embarrassed to ever show anyone that said practice is my belief.

I think even if I could just accept what the CC teaches just because I choose to be submissive, I still would be ashamed to have anyone see me practicing what Catholics practice in regards to Mary. Therefore that would make me a hypocrite.

Would Jesus be ashamed of His Mother?

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I have to even think about that statement…’ Catholics must affirm these beliefs as dogma’…and I’m a Catholic…

How about… Catholics believe these things,

Maybe that’s the faith we get from the Father…You know like the faith that Abraham had…and it’s lovely to believe these things…

I dunno… I think it’s the people outside of the faith that seem to have such a hard time believing what we believe because in their teachings they are taught something different about what a Catholic believes and often it’s not what we believe at all…

There is shared devotion to the blessed Virgin. But what bothers Lutherans is that a Catholic must believe these Marian event as infallible belief. Can Catholics accept other Christians not believing the immaculate assumption and coronation of Mary and still be good Christians?

 

[Karen107]

There is shared devotion to the blessed Virgin. But what bothers Lutherans is that a Catholic must believe these Marian event as infallible belief. Can Catholics accept other Christians not believing the immaculate assumption and coronation of Mary and still be good Christians?

I’m a bit baffled by your question. Of course if people don’t believe in those things can still be considered good Christians, they may not have the fullness of the truth as the Church understands it, but they can still be good Christians…

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I’m a bit baffled by your question. Of course if people don’t believe in those things can still be considered good Christians, they may not have the fullness of the truth as the Church understands it, but they can still be good Christians…

OK, good answer.

 

[Robyn_p]

Yes I agree and this is where it gets complicated. Lutherans understand the role Mary played in the Incarnation; she bore our salvation so it is almost impossible to separate Mary from Jesus. Luther said we are to refer to Mary as second only to the holy Trinity. But for the sake of church unity we do not require our parishes to hold especially holy days to Mary or any other saints though the practice is a good one.

Does that make sense?

It makes sense, though I still disagree with it. (Of course. )

I don’t think that compromising the truth for the sake of unity is a good idea. I think you would agree with me that that’s not true unity. Not the unity Jesus prayed for us to have anyway.

I once read a Protestant theologian who, in the process of explaining why Mary can’t be called the Mother of God, ended up denying that Jesus Christ is the Eternal Son. He basically fell into Nestorianism. :sad_yes: That’s why these Marian doctrines can’t dismissed.

Of course, we could argue whether the Marian feast days ought to be mandatorily celebrated or not. That concerns practice, not dogma, and so it is something the Church could feasibly change, if that would help with re-unification. I don’t see that as an insurmountable obstacle.

As long as that doesn’t mean making the doctrines themselves optional.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

It makes sense, though I still disagree with it. (Of course. )

I don’t think that compromising the truth for the sake of unity is a good idea. I think you would agree with me that that’s not true unity. Not the unity Jesus prayed for us to have anyway.

I once read a Protestant theologian who, in the process of explaining why Mary can’t be called the Mother of God, ended up denying that Jesus Christ is the Eternal Son. He basically fell into Nestorianism. :sad_yes: That’s why these Marian doctrines can’t dismissed.

Of course, we could argue whether the Marian feast days ought to be mandatorily celebrated or not. That concerns practice, not dogma, and so it is something the Church could feasibly change, if that would help with re-unification. I don’t see that as an insurmountable obstacle.

As long as that doesn’t mean making the doctrines themselves optional.

You are actually right since the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue pointed to unity in diversity. Lutherans say devotion to Mary and her role in Heaven can not be proved in the Bible but we do not reject these beliefs as unacceptable. The only problem is papal infallibility.

 

[Robyn_p]

You are actually right since the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue pointed to unity in diversity. Lutherans say devotion to Mary and her role in Heaven can not be proved in the Bible but we do not reject these beliefs as unacceptable. The only problem is papal infallibility.

Well that’s a whole 'nuther can of worms.

I pray everyday for unity though. I don’t doubt it will happen someday.

 

[pablope]

I think I could do it, but I just can’t accept the way it’s done.

I’m sorry everyone; I don’t mean to be offensive at all about this but I just get nervous and uncomfortable when it comes to some of the (prayers?) to Mary.

Well…what do you think is the right way to do this or the right way to express it?

Well,cathiolics have been praying those prayers…including those who have been canonized into sainthood…for several hundred years…do you think those catholics are now damned because of those prayers?

Do think if you said them with sincerity…God will commit you to hell?

 

[getysbg]

According to Michelle Arnold here at CA, we are not required to have a devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, but we are required to accept the Marian doctrines. I assume that it’s the same for the saints, but I don’t know for sure.

In a few weeks, we will be celebrating the feast of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary (into Heaven), on August 15. It’s a holy day of obligation, so all Catholics are required to attend Mass on that day. She will be honored on that day, so in effect, when we attend Mass on that day, we are also participating in honoring her.
Link to article by Michelle Arnold:

catholic.com/quickquestions/is-it-required-that-catholics-be-devoted-to-mary

This was of great concern to me when I entered the Church. Despite trying, I have not been able to see the need for such devotions. What brought peace and allowed me to enter was accepting the doctrines.

 

[Mark121359]

“When a Christian says to me, not that he does not love the Virgin, but rather that it does not come to mind to look to the Virgin or to pray to the Virgin, I feel sad”, he said, adding that** “a Christian without the Virgin is an orphan."**** A Christian needs these two women, these two mothers, two virgin women: the Church and Our Lady. And to ‘test’ a true Christian vocation, it is necessary to ask oneself, 'how is my relationship with these two Mothers. ~Pope Francis~

Peace, Mark

 

[Karen107]

You are actually right since the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue pointed to unity in diversity. Lutherans say devotion to Mary and her role in Heaven can not be proved in the Bible but we do not reject these beliefs as unacceptable. The only problem is papal infallibility.

Think about this…Why would papal infallibility on the Marian doctrines be a problem if the beliefs are beliefs that the Church has had since early Christianity and a thousand years later the Pope just puts a rubber stamp on it so to speak?

 

[Karen107]

This was of great concern to me when I entered the Church. Despite trying, I have not been able to see the need for such devotions. What brought peace and allowed me to enter was accepting the doctrines.

There are many things that people don’t understand until they do and realize the fruit in them. These are things of God and there are mysteries of our faith that people don’t often understand and others do…

I see Mary the ark of the covenant… Carrying us in because She carried Jesus in her womb… We love Mary because God gave Himself to her first… so many things…little things and big things revealed to me because of Mary…

 

[KathleenGee]

I like Mark’s addition to the Holy Father’s comment that those Christians who do not have devotion to Mary are like orphans.

I did not have devotion to Mary growing up and saw her some how like this all white statue with hands folded and pointed to heaven, eyes cast down…and indifferent.

I only began to come to Mary spontaneously, talking about the Eucharist to my Protestant roommate inquiring about our faith, and then talking about Mary…while never thinking about her…I think I must have absorbed comments about her at Mass.

I think you must experience the Lord at Mass. In it, we include the communion of saints with us. I think Protestants who come can experience this.

Mary will not reveal herself to you until you truly look at Jesus as your Lord…unless she chooses otherwise. I experienced living devotion to her by the Latin missionaries…where she is a companion in the work serving the Lord. She is full of grace and her presence in serving the Lord is made better by her. She is greater than all the other saints.

I later had this experience regarding her. On Christmas Eve, the Italian missionaries were praying that Mary…perfect Christian, be re born in them…and in her…the Savior be re born again in their souls…and I joined in.

The next morning I was suffering alot because of the suffering of the people around us. We had Christmas dinner that day with the hospital patients. We sat at the table together eating in silence, eating in contemplation that sacred day of the Infant Lord. I felt Mary come and visit each one of us. Back in the house alone, I prayed, and felt her presence in the room…she brought heaven’s presence with her…she was of light and shared the light of heaven…and the saints seemed beneath her…I then felt joy in my heart and a relief from carrying others sufferings I was unable to relieve.

After that, I wanted to be devoted to her, but could not…for seven years. Finally the day that John Paul II was shot, I finally got down on my knees and prayed the rosary and all theological questions in my soul were cleared up and I was now centered in Christ’s truth. I finally emotionally felt she was my mother and so close to me and my heart and helping me to be so much closer to Christ.

As Catholics we are to uphold all our teachings…but it takes time to understand and believe them all. I found all I learned to be true to life, what I was taught about Christ and faith in the Lord. What I could not understand was Mary’s assumption in to heaven…but as i saw the Church right on everything else, I put that part on the back burner, having faith some day it would make sense.

 

[Karen107]

As Catholics we are to uphold all our teachings…but it takes time to understand and believe them all. I found all I learned to be true to life, what I was taught about Christ and faith in the Lord. What I could not understand was Mary’s assumption in to heaven…but as i saw the Church right on everything else, I put that part on the back burner, having faith some day it would make sense.

Maybe it would help you to know that other people of the bible were also taken into heaven wholly. Mary, Mother of God was indeed special and because God spared Mary of all sin through the gift of her Immaculate conception she did not taste death…

The Bible says that “Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven” (2 Kings 2:11), “Enoch was translated that he should not see death” (Hebrews 11:5), and “God took him” (Genesis 5:24), and Moses appeared in the transfiguration with Jesus (Matthew 17:3).

It doesn’t seem hard for people to believe these things which happened in the OT but can’t believe these miracles surrounding Mary’s life? God is capable of anything…

 

[Mark121359]

I like Mark’s addition to the Holy Father’s comment that those Christians who do not have devotion to Mary are like orphans.

I did not have devotion to Mary growing up and saw her some how like this all white statue with hands folded and pointed to heaven, eyes cast down…and indifferent.

I only began to come to Mary spontaneously, talking about the Eucharist to my Protestant roommate inquiring about our faith, and then talking about Mary…while never thinking about her…I think I must have absorbed comments about her at Mass.

I think you must experience the Lord at Mass. In it, we include the communion of saints with us. I think Protestants who come can experience this.

Mary will not reveal herself to you until you truly look at Jesus as your Lord…unless she chooses otherwise. I experienced living devotion to her by the Latin missionaries…where she is a companion in the work serving the Lord. She is full of grace and her presence in serving the Lord is made better by her. She is greater than all the other saints.

I later had this experience regarding her. On Christmas Eve, the Italian missionaries were praying that Mary…perfect Christian, be re born in them…and in her…the Savior be re born again in their souls…and I joined in.

The next morning I was suffering alot because of the suffering of the people around us. We had Christmas dinner that day with the hospital patients. We sat at the table together eating in silence, eating in contemplation that sacred day of the Infant Lord. I felt Mary come and visit each one of us. Back in the house alone, I prayed, and felt her presence in the room…she brought heaven’s presence with her…she was of light and shared the light of heaven…and the saints seemed beneath her…I then felt joy in my heart and a relief from carrying others sufferings I was unable to relieve.

After that, I wanted to be devoted to her, but could not…for seven years. Finally the day that John Paul II was shot, I finally got down on my knees and prayed the rosary and all theological questions in my soul were cleared up and I was now centered in Christ’s truth. I finally emotionally felt she was my mother and so close to me and my heart and helping me to be so much closer to Christ.

As Catholics we are to uphold all our teachings…but it takes time to understand and believe them all. I found all I learned to be true to life, what I was taught about Christ and faith in the Lord. What I could not understand was Mary’s assumption in to heaven…but as i saw the Church right on everything else, I put that part on the back burner, having faith some day it would make sense.

Beautiful post KathleenGee!

What I could not understand was Mary’s assumption in to heaven…but as i saw the Church right on everything else, I put that part on the back burner, having faith some day it would make sense.

It’ll come to you. Your last sentence speaks volumes. You mention your difficulty in understanding Mary’s Assumption…and yet you ***trust ***in the Church and her teachings…so rare to see these days!

Peace, Mark

 

[JRKH]

Pablope,
I know that this post was directed at dronald but I hope you don’t mind my responding to it…

Well…what do you think is the right way to do this or the right way to express it?

There are many “right ways” in which one’s Love for Mary can be expressed. Take any mother who has many children and each child will express themselves differently.
Will their mother be bothered by this?

Well,Catholics have been praying those prayers…including those who have been canonized into sainthood…for several hundred years…do you think those Catholics are now damned because of those prayers?

Dronald made no such assertion - nor do I.

Do think if you said them with sincerity…God will commit you to hell?

Of course not but that is not the point. Prayer is a conversation with God, or with a saint and should express one’s heart at that time.
The best prayer is extemporaneous - saying what one feels in their heart. Formulaic prayers are also great - especially in group situations. But if a given prayer does not express what is in one’s heart, why pray it? If one is uncomfortable with what is expressed in a given prayer - how can one pray it “with sincerity”?
Far better to pray honestly -for it is this which will please God most.

Peace
James