Devotion to Mary

[dronald]

Well…what do you think is the right way to do this or the right way to express it?

Well,cathiolics have been praying those prayers…including those who have been canonized into sainthood…for several hundred years…do you think those catholics are now damned because of those prayers?

Do think if you said them with sincerity…God will commit you to hell?

No pablope. No need to jump to conclusions.

 

[Tommy999]

Maybe it’s just my protestant belief system through which I process the Christian faith, but I can’t get over the hurdle that a devotion to Mary is somehow taking away from devotion to Christ in that it takes the focus off Christ and redirects it to Christ’s mother, or at least that is how I perceive it.

In my mind, it’s like saying, “I don’t think God can directly help me if I go to Him through Christ in prayer. Therefore, I’m going to be like a child who goes to his mother to try to get her to persuade my father to answer my prayer because he is either distracted, disinterested, or doesn’t care about me like she does”.

I don’t believe that God is disinterested and uncaring. He loves each of us dearly and does not require any middle man (or woman) to communicate with Him except His beloved Son, Jesus Christ, our Savior.

On the other hand, I think many protestants land on the opposite side of the spectrum where they basically ignore Mary except during the Christmas season. My guess it is an overcompensation for all the attention that Catholics give her.

I think protestants would be better served to find ways to acknowledge and recognize Mary’s great role and contributions to the Christian faith without necesarily praying to her or having a devotion to her. After all, Holy Scripture calls her “Blessed”.

A nice Catholic on this forum once told me that Mary is in heaven praying for me even if I don’t pray to her. I appreciate that and it has stuck with me in a positive way. I will try to keep an open mind because I realize my thoughts are fallible and there is only one God and I’m definitely not Him .

I respect those who maintain a devotion to the Virgin Mary but my prayers will be continue to be directed to God alone through His beloved Son Jesus Christ.

 

[JRKH]

What a wonderful post. A very well stated view from the protestant perspective.
Thank you for sharing this.

Maybe it’s just my protestant belief system through which I process the Christian faith, but I can’t get over the hurdle that a devotion to Mary is somehow taking away from devotion to Christ in that it takes the focus off Christ and redirects it to Christ’s mother, or at least that is how I perceive it.

Yes - this is a legitimate concern, not in the heavenly realm where all is focused on and directed toward God, but certainly in our limited human realm where one could end up with an improper focus…
But I think that the experience a great many Marian devotees is that it actually helps them to grow closer to Christ. Not saying this is true for everyone…but…

Also - especially for the protestant who has the concerns you express here, I suggest that they ask Christ to introduce them to His mother Mary. I can’t think of a better way to learn about Mary while maintaining a proper focus.

In my mind, it’s like saying, “I don’t think God can directly help me if I go to Him through Christ in prayer. Therefore, I’m going to be like a child who goes to his mother to try to get her to persuade my father to answer my prayer because he is either distracted, disinterested, or doesn’t care about me like she does”.

I don’t believe that God is disinterested and uncaring. He loves each of us dearly and does not require any middle man (or woman) to communicate with Him except His beloved Son, Jesus Christ, our Savior.

Agreed - In this I think that it is a matter of “different strokes for different folks”. Just as some people feel more comfortable going to “Dad”, others are more comfortable going to “Mom”. But of course, like all good parents…Mom and Dad are going to act in concert - not in any way contrary…And we know that Mary will always be submissive to the Father.

On the other hand, I think many protestants land on the opposite side of the spectrum where they basically ignore Mary except during the Christmas season. My guess it is an overcompensation for all the attention that Catholics give her.

Amen…

I think protestants would be better served to find ways to acknowledge and recognize Mary’s great role and contributions to the Christian faith without necessarily praying to her or having a devotion to her. After all, Holy Scripture calls her “Blessed”.

I’ve spoken with many who do try to do this. Much depends on the faith tradition they are in.

A nice Catholic on this forum once told me that Mary is in heaven praying for me even if I don’t pray to her. I appreciate that and it has stuck with me in a positive way. I will try to keep an open mind because I realize my thoughts are fallible and there is only one God and I’m definitely not Him .

I respect those who maintain a devotion to the Virgin Mary but my prayers will be continue to be directed to God alone through His beloved Son Jesus Christ.

You may not realize it…but your post actually speaks to a very fine devotion to Mary.
And Mary cannot - in any way - be offended by our praying directly to the Father through the son.

Peace
James

 

[DAML72]

Maybe it’s just my protestant belief system through which I process the Christian faith, but I can’t get over the hurdle that a devotion to Mary is somehow taking away from devotion to Christ in that it takes the focus off Christ and redirects it to Christ’s mother, or at least that is how I perceive it.

In my mind, it’s like saying, “I don’t think God can directly help me if I go to Him through Christ in prayer. Therefore, I’m going to be like a child who goes to his mother to try to get her to persuade my father to answer my prayer because he is either distracted, disinterested, or doesn’t care about me like she does”.

I don’t believe that God is disinterested and uncaring. He loves each of us dearly and does not require any middle man (or woman) to communicate with Him except His beloved Son, Jesus Christ, our Savior.

On the other hand, I think many protestants land on the opposite side of the spectrum where they basically ignore Mary except during the Christmas season. My guess it is an overcompensation for all the attention that Catholics give her.

I think protestants would be better served to find ways to acknowledge and recognize Mary’s great role and contributions to the Christian faith without necesarily praying to her or having a devotion to her. After all, Holy Scripture calls her “Blessed”.

A nice Catholic on this forum once told me that Mary is in heaven praying for me even if I don’t pray to her. I appreciate that and it has stuck with me in a positive way. I will try to keep an open mind because I realize my thoughts are fallible and there is only one God and I’m definitely not Him .

I respect those who maintain a devotion to the Virgin Mary but my prayers will be continue to be directed to God alone through His beloved Son Jesus Christ.

Wonderful post! All very valid reservations.

I would only add that I think some of your reservations might come from a slight misunderstanding of how a devotion to Mary (or any Saint for that matter) works. Yes, some can perhaps get a bit carried away, but the purpose of a devotion to Mary is not just to ask for her prayers and her intercession on our behalf. Take, for example, the Rosary - in reflecting upon the role that Mary played in salvation history, we reflect on her purity of heart, her strength, her sacrifice - by her example, she teaches us how to become more holy and closer to her Son. And we ask for her help and direction in leading holy lives. Personally, as a woman and mother, there are areas of my spiritual life in which I feel more comfortable sharing with Mary - things I know she understands. That’s not to say that the Father doesn’t understand, but as a fallible human being, I need that connection. Does that make sense? Since Mary was a gift to us from the Father, handed to us by Christ at the foot of the Cross, I accept and embrace that blessing to help me in my spiritual journey.

Has anyone definitively answered the original question? I don’t know for sure, but I think the Catechism states that the invocation of the Saints is not required. Though there is one point in the Mass during the Eucharistic prayer when the priest joins together our prayers with those of the Blessed Mother, Saint Joseph, etc. (But that’s it as far as any mention of Mary in the liturgy of a Catholic Mass)

 

[EvangelCatholic]

A Lutheran acknowledges that heaven comes down to earth at each eucharist and we name Mary, the first and foremost among the saints. I was taught that in holy Communion we are in the Presence of Christ and all who worship Him including the faithful departed. The pastor preached that the real cemetery was in the Mass, the closest we can be with our loved ones, in the company of the saints. But we generally stop short of actually calling out to Our Lady. Lutherans know she is praying for us. That is good enough.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

And as a Catholic you were not required to participate in devotion to Mary; you were still a good Catholic.

I only had to show up on the Mary feast days.

I even did the “Rosary challenge” my spiritual director advised. Pray the rosary everyday for a month.

After a month, I stopped because I was getting much out of it.

I started praying the Jesus Prayer instead and I found it much more fulfilling.

 

[Karen107]

I got to thinking more on this and want to share one more thing to think and pray about…

I hope I don’t have to remind anyone that there are real spiritual battles going on in our world and God arms us with weapons to fight these battles we have on earth and the power of the Church is one of those weapons. The angels and Saints arm us in our spiritual battles so it is a good thing to pray through them as they are part of the Church… The Holy ones in heaven are a powerful tool against the wickedness and snares of the devil as they do the will of God in heaven by interceding for us…

“Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
10 Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.

, especially those God has shown favor to in heaven, the Saints and angels who pass along our prayers to Jesus…

Revelation 5:6 And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes,** which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth; 7 and he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne. 8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; 9 and they sang a new song, saying,

“Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals,
for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God
from every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on earth.”

11 Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!” 13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, “To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever!” 14 And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

I hope God along with the Saints hear our battle call for help for those who are lost and are dealing with their own spiritual battles in their daily lives… I especially worry for our youth…**

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks Karen…yes good point, about Elijah taken to heaven.

Well I came to understand Mary’s assumption into heaven after reading various saints’ studies on perfection, the road to union with the Divine, in regard to the purgative, illuminative, and unitive way of the soul.

Mary did not have to go through all of that.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, Mark, for your observation.

Tommy…just like Our Lord, we do not come to the saints through abstractions and books, but in living relationship.

One idea came to me, and it would be nice if you found a painting of Mary you like and place the picture some where near you.

I am devoted to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. I pray daily to place myself and my family and all my loved ones in her immaculate heart – the only safe place in this world. In her heart, she protects our faith in Jesus and keeps us persevering in Him.

I think so much right now and pray so much for those Christians who are being exterminated in Syria and Iraq…They are people who have great devotion to Mary…

Nevertheless, it could be that God is calling them all to martyrdom in spite of Mary’s protection.

If they are all exterminated…I pray the Lord manifest Himself to them in a most special and consoling way. and in union with Mary…May the sword of their sufferings and death pierce the soul and conscience of the world that does not consider Him, and that they stop living for themselves, and work to end hatred and bigotry.

The only consolation I am getting is reading about the Muslims in Baghdad who are risking everything to stand by them and say they, too are Nazarenes.

 

[Karen107]

My heart bleeds for all that is happening in the world. I feel the presence of the Saints often inside me it’s as if they speak through me. I believe that is the Holy Spirit at work. Speaking in tongues is written in the scriptures where people speak in foreign tongues which is a gift of the Holy Spirit. I believe I have done that before I even heard about that speaking in tongues and there’s so many times I feel the presence of departed loved ones or speak as if they were speaking through me. I don’t believe they are just babbles, I believe that they are the voice of the saints and why the Holy Spirit speaks in different languages, all of this being a gift of the Holy Spirit so we shouldn’t take the Saints in heaven for granted, they have the wisdom of God and speak in Gods language. My priest says that it is possible for any of us to have these gifts. We are given them through our baptism.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words. 27 And he who searches the hearts of men knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

 

[Robyn_p]

Maybe it’s just my protestant belief system through which I process the Christian faith, but I can’t get over the hurdle that a devotion to Mary is somehow taking away from devotion to Christ in that it takes the focus off Christ and redirects it to Christ’s mother, or at least that is how I perceive it.

A valid concern.

I wouldn’t worry too much though about taking away from Christ by praying to and honoring his mother. When we praise and admire a work of art, that doesn’t take anything away from the artist, right? It actually honors him more. That’s how it is with Mary. As one author I like put it, she’s God’s masterpiece.

Everything that makes Mary special comes from God and the graces he bestowed on her. Like she herself said, her soul magnifies The Lord. Recognizing the fact that God used her to bring salvation to the world and that she cooperated perfectly with Him doesn’t take anything away from Christ, because it was only by and through his grace that she was able to do anything.

Certainly some people can and do take it to far, though I never have met a Catholic with a strong devotion to Mary who didn’t also have a strong devotion to Christ. But the key is keeping a proper perspective. As long as we recognize WHO it is that made Mary special, we don’t have to worry about taking away from Christ. Because it all comes from Him.

In my mind, it’s like saying, “I don’t think God can directly help me if I go to Him through Christ in prayer. Therefore, I’m going to be like a child who goes to his mother to try to get her to persuade my father to answer my prayer because he is either distracted, disinterested, or doesn’t care about me like she does”.

I don’t believe that God is disinterested and uncaring. He loves each of us dearly and does not require any middle man (or woman) to communicate with Him except His beloved Son, Jesus Christ, our Savior.

Some Catholics do portray it that way, which I’ve never liked. But that’s not quite how it really is. As I’m sure you’ve already heard, asking Mary or any saint to pray for us is the same as asking our friends on earth to pray for us. It’s not done (or shouldn’t be anyway) out of a sense that God doesn’t care or that he needs manipulating. God already knows what we need before we ask it.

But still God loves, for whatever reason, to use us fallen human beings as instruments to communicate his love and graces to others. And that doesn’t stop after death.

On the other hand, I think many protestants land on the opposite side of the spectrum where they basically ignore Mary except during the Christmas season. My guess it is an overcompensation for all the attention that Catholics give her.

I think protestants would be better served to find ways to acknowledge and recognize Mary’s great role and contributions to the Christian faith without necesarily praying to her or having a devotion to her. After all, Holy Scripture calls her “Blessed”.

A nice Catholic on this forum once told me that Mary is in heaven praying for me even if I don’t pray to her. I appreciate that and it has stuck with me in a positive way. I will try to keep an open mind because I realize my thoughts are fallible and there is only one God and I’m definitely not Him .

I respect those who maintain a devotion to the Virgin Mary but my prayers will be continue to be directed to God alone through His beloved Son Jesus Christ.

I can appreciate that.

The problem I think comes when both sides try to make the other pray their particular way. (“You CAN’T pray to Mary.” “You MUST pray to Mary” etc…) Praying to saints is good and valid, but so is not praying to them. What matters is whatever helps us in our relationship to God.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I raised this question on another thread: Are Catholics required to invoke the saints?

I think it’s better to see this as a “De Fide” (Of the Faith).

The Mother of the Redeemer

Mary’s Motherhood of God

Mary is truly the Mother of God. (De fide.)

The Privileges of the Mother of God

Mary was conceived without stain of Original sin. (De fide.)
From her conception Mary was free from all motions of concupiscence. (Sent. communis.)
In consequence of a Special Privilege of Grace from God, Mary was free from every personal sin during her whole life. (Sent. fidei proxima.) She was immune from all sin mortal and venial.
Mary was a Virgin before, during and after the Birth of Jesus Christ.
Mary conceived by the Holy Ghost without the co-operation of man. (De fide.)
Mary bore her Son without any violation of her virginal integrity. (De fide on the ground of the general promulgation of doctrine.)
Also after the Birth of Jesus Mary remained a Virgin. (De fide.)
Mary suffered a temporal death. (Sent. communior.)
Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven. (De fide.)

Mary’s Co-operation in the Work of the Redeemer

Mary gave the Redeemer, the Source of all graces, to the world, and in this way she is the channel of all graces. (Sent. certa.)
Since Mary’s Assumption into Heaven no grace is conferred on man without her actual intercessory co-operation. (Sent. pia et probabilis.)
Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces by her co-operation in the Incarnation. (Mediatio in universali.)
Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces by her intercession in Heaven. (Mediatio in speciali.)
Mary, the Mother of God, is entitled to the Cult of Hyperdulia. (Sent certa.)

From Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Ott) and Sources of Catholic Dogma (Denzinger)

 

[joe371]

I think it’s better to see this as a “De Fide” (Of the Faith).

The Mother of the Redeemer

Mary’s Motherhood of God

Mary is truly the Mother of God. (De fide.)

The Privileges of the Mother of God

Mary was conceived without stain of Original sin. (De fide.)
From her conception Mary was free from all motions of concupiscence. (Sent. communis.)
In consequence of a Special Privilege of Grace from God, Mary was free from every personal sin during her whole life. (Sent. fidei proxima.) She was immune from all sin mortal and venial.
Mary was a Virgin before, during and after the Birth of Jesus Christ.
Mary conceived by the Holy Ghost without the co-operation of man. (De fide.)
Mary bore her Son without any violation of her virginal integrity. (De fide on the ground of the general promulgation of doctrine.)
Also after the Birth of Jesus Mary remained a Virgin. (De fide.)
Mary suffered a temporal death. (Sent. communior.)
Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven. (De fide.)

Mary’s Co-operation in the Work of the Redeemer

Mary gave the Redeemer, the Source of all graces, to the world, and in this way she is the channel of all graces. (Sent. certa.)
Since Mary’s Assumption into Heaven no grace is conferred on man without her actual intercessory co-operation. (Sent. pia et probabilis.)
Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces by her co-operation in the Incarnation. (Mediatio in universali.)
Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces by her intercession in Heaven. (Mediatio in speciali.)
Mary, the Mother of God, is entitled to the Cult of Hyperdulia. (Sent certa.)

From Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Ott) and Sources of Catholic Dogma (Denzinger)

The fact that our blessed mother Mary was conceived by the Holy Ghost without the co-operation of man, something unique to her (as one of Gods creatures) and her alone, surely sets her apart, making everything else you mentioned totally believable.

 

[Karen107]

The problem I think comes when both sides try to make the other pray their particular way. (“You CAN’T pray to Mary.” “You MUST pray to Mary” etc…) Praying to saints is good and valid, but so is not praying to them. What matters is whatever helps us in our relationship to God.

You have a point there…

I heard something the other day that made a lot of sense and I don’t know if I can explain it right. People of the Church have relationships with Jesus which includes the people of the Church. Jesus is the living bread, the living word, the living water, Jesus IS the resurrection and the life! What does all these things really mean?? This scripture may give clues into it…

Psalm 104:2 The LORD wraps himself in light as with a garment; he stretches out the heavens like a tent

A tent that the Lord prepares for US…

I understand that all this points to a relationship with Jesus AND each other much like I see my relationship with Jesus. Its not just a Jesus and me thing, although I have experienced the presence of Jesus with me but when we love each other we are also showing our love for God and Jesus smiles at us for that he doesn’t get mad at us for loving people… I believe Jesus loves that I love people! .Jesus wants us to love people and embrace them… Jesus fills us with love and we cant help but spill that love out into the world for others.

Whereas non-Catholics may focus on their personal relationship with Jesus alone and may not see Church as "people’, but rather a place to pray, worship and have fellowship? The focus should be always on Jesus but I see more into that. I see that I am part of a community of God…The communion of Saints… It doesn’t detract from what I feel for Jesus but rather adds to the love I feel for God that He has given us people to love and the ability to love them…

 

[joe371]

Robyn The problem I think comes when both sides try to make the other pray their particular way. (“You CAN’T pray to Mary.” “You MUST pray to Mary” etc…) Praying to saints is good and valid, but so is not praying to them. What matters is whatever helps us in our relationship to God.

Excellent point. :thumbsup:You can take it right to God…

 

[joe371]

The fact that our blessed mother Mary was conceived by the Holy Ghost without the co-operation of man, something unique to her (as one of Gods creatures) and her alone, surely sets her apart, making everything else you mentioned totally believable.

I meant to say: The fact that Jesus was was conceived by the power of Holy Ghost without the co-operation of man, something unique to Mary (as one of Gods creatures) and her alone, surely sets her apart, making everything else you mentioned totally believable.

 

[JRKH]

I meant to say: The fact that Jesus was was conceived by the power of Holy Ghost without the co-operation of man, something unique to Mary (as one of Gods creatures) and her alone, surely sets her apart, making everything else you mentioned totally believable.

Thanks for that correction…Had me worried there for a bit…

Peace
James

 

[KathleenGee]

Hi Tommy…

I think, no offense intended…that you may have some fears from this indoctrination.

I would suggest you get the book, ‘Supper of the Lamb’, by Dr Scott Hahn and see how Catholics worship God. Once that is clear to you…you can begin to see Mary is our Mother, and in no way does she take us away from the Lord, but only closer to Him.

 

[Tommy999]

Hi Tommy…

I think, no offense intended…that you may have some fears from this indoctrination.

I would suggest you get the book, ‘Supper of the Lamb’, by Dr Scott Hahn and see how Catholics worship God. Once that is clear to you…you can begin to see Mary is our Mother, and in no way does she take us away from the Lord, but only closer to Him.

Hi KathleenGee,

Out of deep respect for your kindness to me on CAF and because I know you have a devotion to Mary, I prayed a special prayer today while I was taking my daily walk.

I thanked God for Mary and thanked the Virgin Mary for her obedience in saying 'Yes" to the Lord and for her great faith and love for our Savior. I thanked her for raising Jesus in love from an infant until His death, for never abandoning Him, and for being there with Him at His sorrowful death on the cross when He paid the ultimate price for our sins.

She risked much from the time the angel came to her until Christ’s death on the cross but she never denied our Lord and she didn’t hesitate to do God’s will in her life. She is a model of faithfulness and obedience for all people, and she shows all Christians what it means to live a virtuous and godly life. She is truly “Blessed among women” and deserves special recognition and honor as Christ’s mother.

I know this was a feeble first attempt by this protestant lad at saying thanks to the Blessed Virgin Mary for all she’s done, but I can assure you it was from my heart.

 

[KathleenGee]

Your prayer may not be matched by those Catholics who are indifferent to her, inspite of their upbringing.

A most beautiful prayer, and some day I believe you will experience the grace of the Blessed Virgin for a special intention and particular need of yours.