Devotion to Mary

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pablope said:
:thumbsup:Thanks, Jon…from your statement here…“This is the one verse, Luke 15:7, that, for me, leaves the possibility open for invocation of the saints.”…i thought you still had lingering doubts.
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Lingering doubts regarding invocation, but only my own usage of it. I have no doubts at all that the Church Triumphant is aware, in some general way, of our needs, and prays for us without ceasing. I have no doubts that many do invoke the saints for invocation, and that their doing so brings them comfort and in no way distracts from Christ as the sole mediator.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Lingering doubts regarding invocation, but only my own usage of it. I have no doubts at all that the Church Triumphant is aware, in some general way, of our needs, and prays for us without ceasing. I have no doubts that many do invoke the saints for invocation, and that their doing so brings them comfort and in no way distracts from Christ as the sole mediator.

Jon
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Wow, how refreshing!
 
benhur said:
Nope. Saints in heaven are quite alive, as are the saints on earth.
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So if they are alive do they not pray? And if they are alive can they not hear what we say down here? And if they can hear, how un-saintly it would be if they heard our plea’s and didn’t pray for us don’t you think?
 
ptisme said:
And if they are alive can they not hear what we say down here?
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That is the million dollar question, and why I posed the three scenarios of their "hearing’’. Are they all hearing, all present ? Not even the angels are.
 
benhur said:
ptisme;12216822:
do you mean where did i post 3 scenarios -post #92
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Ok, I don’t know if it’s been pointed out but the go to verse (along with that vs from Luke) for support of the Saints being capable of hearing our prayers is Rev 5:8, “where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us”-catholic.com
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ptisme said:
benhur;12216856:
Ok, I don’t know if it’s been pointed out but the go to verse (along with that vs from Luke) for support of the Saints being capable of hearing our prayers is Rev 5:8, “where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us”-catholic.com
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Thank you .Understand . Still an interpolation (reading between the lines but not direct meaning). Taken literally then do we pray to the four beasts or the twenty four elders ? they have the prayers. Do the saints in heaven pray or invoke them ? It is not specified whom the prayers are originally directed to . Certainly it is more possible that they are all prayers directed to the Godhead. Again, it is interpolation to say they are prayers from saints on this side of life given to saints on the other side of life to give to God and has no precedence.
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ptisme said:
benhur;12216856:
Ok, I don’t know if it’s been pointed out but the go to verse (along with that vs from Luke) for support of the Saints being capable of hearing our prayers is Rev 5:8, “where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us”-catholic.com
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“And golden vials full of odours. The Revised Version “bowls” is better than “vials.” The idea is, no doubt, taken from the shallow bowls which were placed upon the golden altar (Exodus 30:1-10), and in which incense was burned. The odours are the incense. In the same chapter of Exodus directions are given concerning the preparation and use of the incense, which was always a symbol of prayer, and always offered to God alone (cf. Psalm 141:2, “Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense;” also Luke 1:9, 10; Isaiah 6:3, 4). Which are the prayers of saints”… from “pulpit” commentary
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benhur said:
ptisme;12216931:
Thank you .Understand . Still an interpolation (reading between the lines but not direct meaning). Taken literally then do we pray to the four beasts or the twenty four elders ? they have the prayers. Do the saints in heaven pray or invoke them ? It is not specified whom the prayers are originally directed to . Certainly it is more possible that they are all prayers directed to the Godhead. Again, it is interpolation to say they are prayers from saints on this side of life given to saints on the other side of life to give to God and has no precedence.
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Both the four beasts and the twenty four elders participated. The four beasts are Cherubim based on Ezekiel 1. In Gen 48 Jacob prays for an angel to bless his grand children (an angel also intercedes in Zech 1: 12-13). Further, John makes clear that the incense is the prayers of the Saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the Saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally, thus interceding.
Further, Jesus tells us in Matt 22:30 that “at the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven”. Angels and Saints in heaven can hear our words, thoughts and prayers just as Lucifer has retained these powers. God is not the God of the dead but of the living, and our church consists of an earthly church and a heavenly church.

I feel that there is plenty of support in scripture for the invocation of Saints. Certainly as much biblical support (to go along with magisterium) as for the Holy Trinity which we all accept. Further, I don’t see anything in the bible that says the saints do not intercede on our behalf.
PS: 2 Macc 15:14 - The long dead prophet Jeremiah intercedes on behalf of Judas Maccabeus:thumbsup:
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benhur said:
ptisme;12216931:
“And golden vials full of odours. The Revised Version “bowls” is better than “vials.” The idea is, no doubt, taken from the shallow bowls which were placed upon the golden altar (Exodus 30:1-10), and in which incense was burned. The odours are the incense. In the same chapter of Exodus directions are given concerning the preparation and use of the incense, which was always a symbol of prayer, and always offered to God alone (cf. Psalm 141:2, “Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense;” also Luke 1:9, 10; Isaiah 6:3, 4). Which are the prayers of saints”… from “pulpit” commentary
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Forgive me if I misunderstood your intent, but I looked up all these quotes and I don’t see any of them suggesting a Saint or anyone else can’t intercede for you….
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I know I’m answering the question late but here it is

You do not have to pray to Saints, but you have to believe that they are Saints.

As for the Virgin Mary, the same rule applies, you do not have to pray to her privately (why someone does not do that is strange to me) but you have to believe at least in the 4 dogmas concerning her and all these dogmas if you go deep in them will give glory to jesus. The Virgin Mary always guides you toward her Son.
 
ptisme said:
benhur;12217269:
In Gen 48 Jacob prays for an angel to bless his grand children (an angel also intercedes in Zech 1: 12-13).
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An Angel can not redeem you as does Jacob’s Angel, which is manifestation of OT Jesus (as in Hagar and Abraham ,the 3 angels).
Further, John makes clear that the incense is the prayers of the Saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the Saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally, thus interceding.
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Again, this does not deal with to whom the prayers were offered up to in the first place. Secondly, one can not assume God doesn’t hear the prayers first. Another words we can not say the Saints are intermediaries in presenting something that hasn’t been presented already. What we can say is that they “hold” these prayers before God. A bit like love letters to God which He has read, which afterwards are placed in the vials for the saints to “hold” as like incense. I would call that a type of interceding, but not the type as when folks “talk to” saints in heaven to pass on a “letter” to God.
Further, Jesus tells us in Matt 22:30 that “at the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven”.
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Primary meaning here is not the hearing, knowing powers of angels.
Angels and Saints in heaven can hear our words, thoughts and prayers
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We are not sure angels read minds and thoughts. For sure there are many of them and communicate with each other and can hear and see while in our world.
Further, I don’t see anything in the bible that says the saints do not intercede on our behalf.
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Again, we are talking about whether they know your silent and audible prayers, and if so by what means. The answer then determines the value or vanity of praying to Saints in heaven.
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benhur said:
Again, we are talking about whether they know your silent and audible prayers, and if so by what means. The answer then determines the value or vanity of praying to Saints in heaven.
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My thoughts on this topic:

If you ask a Saint to pray for you, and the prayer is answered it would seem to prove that the practice is efficacious. Documented miracles are required before a person is declared a (capital “S”) Saint. Since miracles are granted by God according to His will, either He knew of your need Himself, or He granted it in spite of your asking a Saint for their intercession. I can’t explain how the Saints in heaven can “hear” us anymore than I can explain how Jesus hears us. I am not comparing the Saints to Jesus! But only saying that rationalism can only take us so far.

Of course we are prohibited from invoking the dead, but if we believe those in Heaven are not alive, we need to rethink our beliefs.
 
The Book of Maccabees states it is good to pray for the dead.

Because this book did not agree with Martin Luther’s theology of Sola Scriptura, Luther took it out. He wanted to also remove St. James’ letter that states faith without works is dead, and Revelations because it made no sense…when it is the Breaking of the Bread, the Mass, which is the key that brings understanding to Revelations.

People have to realize ‘church’ is a gathering of people and is administered by a gathering of people, and that the Lord in Judeo Christianity does not come to individuals alone, but those within a gathering of believers.

If we come to new theologies without bringing them before the community of faithful consecrated by the Lord to assure such reflections are in accord with the history of faith, then we have division and enmnity, – not the communion in which we are called to in the Holy Trinity made real by our communion with each other – at the same table.
 
Stilldreamn said:
My thoughts on this topic:

If you ask a Saint to pray for you, and the prayer is answered it would seem to prove that the practice is efficacious. Documented miracles are required before a person is declared a (capital “S”) Saint. Since miracles are granted by God according to His will, either He knew of your need Himself, or He granted it in spite of your asking a Saint for their intercession. I can’t explain how the Saints in heaven can “hear” us anymore than I can explain how Jesus hears us. I am not comparing the Saints to Jesus! But only saying that rationalism can only take us so far.

Of course we are prohibited from invoking the dead, but if we believe those in Heaven are not alive, we need to rethink our beliefs.
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👍
[are you a closet Catholic?]
 
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