Devotion to Mary

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EvangelCatholic said:
My sense is that Lutheran pastors do not emphasize the blessed Virgin enough in sermons. When some Lutherans read what the Confessions profess about the Mother of God they attempt to dismiss or minimize Mary; this is a serious mistake that Lutheran clergy should correct ASAP.

How many Lutheran parishes have a statue, icon, image of the Madonna and Child?
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We don’t have any statues, or icons of Mary and child, if we did I would request they be removed immediately.

We do have some pretty bland stained glass of Jesus, shepherds, etc.
 
benhur said:
Read something the other day that the command is not to make any statue of anything in heaven per Exodus 20:4,5. I know we are not under the law, and folks don’t "worship’’ them, but it says just "bowing’’ to them is not right. Also am not knowledgeable of icon debate history. It seems to me that sometimes the more private something is kept the better and more sacred and even personal. A bit like the Jewish custom of not writing the complete name of God, leaving out vowels.
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Yes, there is apparent scriptural conflict. In the old Testament God’s image is the burning bush. Christ become us so we have many sacred images. Shrines invite the Christian to revere and pray. An icon or crucifix reminds us of God every day.
 
JonNC said:
Faith without works is dead. Yes? So, while works do not merit before God but faith only, which is itself a gift of grace, faith cannot be without works. You are to love the Lord your God, and your neighbor as yourself.
So, Luther, as quoted in the confessions:

Jon
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You know, the great thing about this site is I’m learning things about the beliefs of my fellow Christians I didn’t realize. Prior to digging through these threads I was under the assumption that the majority of protestants subscribed to sola fide. In reading your thread I don’t think we are far off and maybe we’re not off at all but it’s rather semantics. Here is my understanding of the Catholic view of Justification:

We are saved by grace,
which comes through faith (Eph 2:8)(Rom 3:24-25) etc….
which is brought to life by good works (James 2:14,17,18,20, 22, 24, 26), (1Cor 15:10) (Acts 14:26), 2 Cor 9:8, etc……
and those are brought about by christian love and charity (Gal 5:6, 1 Cor 13:13, Matt 25: 31-46) etc…

thecatholictreasurechest.com/works.htm
 
Here’s a quote from Martin Luther from his personal prayer book from 1522, regarding Mary:

“Our prayer should include the Mother of God…what the Hail Mary says is that all the glory should be given to God, using these words: “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with three, blessed art though among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus Christ. Amen!” You see that these words are not concerned with prayer but purely giving praise and honor…We can use the Hail Mary as a meditation in which we can recite what grace God has given her. Second, we should add a wish that everyone may know and respect her…He who has no faith is advised to refrain from saying the Hail Mary.”

Though Luther’s view is different from the Catholic view, he still believed in giving praise and honor to Mary.

Link to article with quote, from the Catholic Culture website:

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=788
 
ptisme said:
You know, the great thing about this site is I’m learning things about the beliefs of my fellow Christians I didn’t realize. Prior to digging through these threads I was under the assumption that the majority of protestants subscribed to sola fide. In reading your thread I don’t think we are far off and maybe we’re not off at all but it’s rather semantics. Here is my understanding of the Catholic view of Justification:

We are saved by grace,
which comes through faith (Eph 2:8)(Rom 3:24-25) etc….
which is brought to life by good works (James 2:14,17,18,20, 22, 24, 26), (1Cor 15:10) (Acts 14:26), 2 Cor 9:8, etc……
and those are brought about by christian love and charity (Gal 5:6, 1 Cor 13:13, Matt 25: 31-46) etc…

thecatholictreasurechest.com/works.htm
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As the website above rightly states, sanctifying grace is lost if we are in mortal sin. Our salvation therefore can be lost if we die while in a state of mortal sin. But that presumes culpability, which is sometimes only known to God. It takes effort to remain in a state of grace, which is a form of ‘works,’ I think. Works isn’t necessarily that of just doing charitable deeds. I don’t know how Lutherans view this exactly.
 
House_Harkonnen said:
We don’t have any statues, or icons of Mary and child, if we did I would request they be removed immediately.

We do have some pretty bland stained glass of Jesus, shepherds, etc.
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I guess this Wisconsin Synod college chapel need some house cleaning! 😉
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Yes, there is apparent scriptural conflict.
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Yes, thank you
In the old Testament God’s image is the burning bush.
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Well one of them. Don’t forget we were made to be in His image also.
Christ become us so we have many sacred images.
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Not sure I follow. Understand the crucifix as symbol for historical Calvary though I prefer the Cross, for He has risen also… Understand images, paintings of biblical stories.
Shrines invite the Christian to revere and pray.
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OT had memorials to remember the graces and works of God (a pile of rocks would do). Turned off by a shrine to a human being , no matter how saintly or what works were wrought. Seems to have pagan roots or at best vestiges of seeker friendly times.
 
benhur said:
Yes, thank you Well one of them. Don’t forget we were made to be in His image also.Not sure I follow. Understand the crucifix as symbol for historical Calvary though I prefer the Cross, for He has risen also… Understand images, paintings of biblical stories. OT had memorials to remember the graces and works of God (a pile of rocks would do). Turned off by a shrine to a human being , no matter how saintly or what works were wrought. Seems to have pagan roots or at best vestiges of seeker friendly times.
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But how can an image of the Madonna holding the Christ Child be “pagan”? Are you opposed to statues of Jesus?
 
House_Harkonnen said:
Yes, I would request that image be removed immediately.
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And if these are not removed…what are you going to do?

Are you going to seperate and create your own lutheran synod or denomination?

And let us say these are removed…what will it accomplish? Will it make you a better christian?
 
benhur said:
Yes, thank you Well one of them. Don’t forget we were made to be in His image also.Not sure I follow. Understand the crucifix as symbol for historical Calvary though I prefer the Cross, fo.
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The crucufux is what Paul preached, and it is what apostles and apostolic churches preached. Removing Christ from thencross is a protestant innovation, so is the removal of religious images.

piercedhearts.org/jpii/jpii_blessed_mother/a_blessed_mother.htm

First of all, you would want to check out 1st Corinthians, chapter 1, verse 23. Paul says, “…but we preach Christ crucified…” Why does Paul preach Christ crucified? Doesn’t he know Jesus has been raised from the dead? Of course he does! But, he knows that it is through the power of the crucified Christ on the cross that the bonds of sin and death are broken. As Paul says in verse 24, Christ crucified is the “power of God”.
1 Cor 2:2, “For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.” Again, didn’t Paul know that Jesus had risen from the dead? Of course, he did.

Paul preaches Christ crucified because an empty cross has no power. The cross that bears the beaten, battered, and bloodied body of Jesus Christ, however, that cross is the “power of God”. This is why, we “keep Jesus on the cross,” because we, too, preach Christ crucified. The Crucifix reminds us not only of God’s power, but also His love for us - giving His only begotten Son up for suffering and death.

Also, here in this life we do not share so much in the glory of the Resurrection, as we do in the suffering of Jesus on the cross; after all, we must take up our cross daily if we are to follow Jesus, as it says in Lk 9:23.

And, we must die with Christ in order to live with Him as Romans 6:8 tells us. Where did Christ die? On the cross. The Crucifix serves to remind us of these things.

One other passage to keep in mind is Galatians 3:1, “O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?” Did you catch that? Jesus was publicly portrayed, before their “eyes”, as being crucified. Sounds kind of like they may have been looking at a Crucifix, doesn’t it?
 
Ah!..eleven pages in, and still much debate over Mama Mary. How can someone as beautiful as Jesus’ Mother be the brunt of so much confusion and controversy? MomMom, I love you…I absolutely cherish you! Thank you Lord for this precious gift you gave us from the Cross!

Peace, Mark
 
pablope said:
The crucufux is what Paul preached, and it is what apostles and apostolic churches preached. Removing Christ from thencross is a protestant innovation, so is the removal of religious images.

piercedhearts.org/jpii/jpii_blessed_mother/a_blessed_mother.htm

First of all, you would want to check out 1st Corinthians, chapter 1, verse 23. Paul says, “…but we preach Christ crucified…” Why does Paul preach Christ crucified? Doesn’t he know Jesus has been raised from the dead? Of course he does! But, he knows that it is through the power of the crucified Christ on the cross that the bonds of sin and death are broken. As Paul says in verse 24, Christ crucified is the “power of God”.
1 Cor 2:2, “For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.” Again, didn’t Paul know that Jesus had risen from the dead? Of course, he did.

Paul preaches Christ crucified because an empty cross has no power. The cross that bears the beaten, battered, and bloodied body of Jesus Christ, however, that cross is the “power of God”. This is why, we “keep Jesus on the cross,” because we, too, preach Christ crucified. The Crucifix reminds us not only of God’s power, but also His love for us - giving His only begotten Son up for suffering and death.

Also, here in this life we do not share so much in the glory of the Resurrection, as we do in the suffering of Jesus on the cross; after all, we must take up our cross daily if we are to follow Jesus, as it says in Lk 9:23.

And, we must die with Christ in order to live with Him as Romans 6:8 tells us. Where did Christ die? On the cross. The Crucifix serves to remind us of these things.

One other passage to keep in mind is Galatians 3:1, “O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?” Did you catch that? Jesus was publicly portrayed, before their “eyes”, as being crucified. Sounds kind of like they may have been looking at a Crucifix, doesn’t it?
Click to expand...
The crucufux is what Paul preached, and it is what apostles and apostolic churches preached. Removing Christ from thencross is a protestant innovation, so is the removal of religious images.
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Nonsense. There are loads of crosses from before the Reformation sans corpus on them.
 
House_Harkonnen said:
No. At my church we have a large painting of St Peter. No one cares that it’s there.
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That’s OK; we are still bros because as Lutherans we cherish the saints that had direct contact with Jesus. Mary is the Mother of God, the second heaven.

Do the holy images around the altar of this Wisconsin Synod parish bother you?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_John%27s_Evangelical_Lutheran_Church_(Milwaukee,_Wisconsin

Saint John’s Evangelical Lutheran Church (Milwaukee, Wisconsin)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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