Devotion to Mary

  • Thread starter Thread starter EvangelCatholic
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Denise1957 said:
Number 26 of the Smalcald Articles does, IMO, seem to condemn the intercession of the saints
Click to expand...
I don’t think there is any “seems” about it. Referring to it as an abuse is pretty clear cut in my book.
and it get s a few things wrong, too. It says that we should not invoke or adore the angels and saints, or fast, hold festivals, celebrate Mass in their honor, make offerings, establish churches, altars, divine worship, and in still other ways serve them, regard them as helpers in need, divide among them all kinds of help, and these things are seen as a form of idolatry.
Click to expand...
There are two things above which I don’t understand, from a Catholic point of view. It mentions making offerings (to the saints), as well as divine worship. I don’t think that the Church ascribes making offerings to the saints, unless I’m just not understanding the context. And we don’t regard, as far as I know, that the saints are divine. Only God (the Holy Trinity) is divine. What was Luther thinking? We do not worship saints. Even though there are some Catholics who may do this.
Click to expand...
In defense of Luther here let me just interject that he may be writing about things that he saw happening either in particular places or by particular individuals or groups. He may not be referring to actual Church teaching.
In other words…he may be speaking to something more particular to his time and place than to something we would recognize today.

Just a thought…
Peace
James
 
The doctrine of the communion of saints is one that few Catholics today understand, as there is very little reference to it in parish-level religious education, which seems to stress “the community” more than “communion” as the basis of the Church. The philosophy of communitarianism that has been uncritically accepted by the Catholic theological establishment has undermined true belief in the communion of saints.

I run a website devoted to Catholic evangelism and apologetics at www.logosensarkos.com. Take a look at the materials on the second page (Audio-Visuals and Essays), most of which can be downloaded for free. In particular, see the presentations entitled “The Communion of Saints” and “The Blessed Virgin Mary”. I think you will find an entirely refreshing view of these subjects.
 
JRKH said:
I don’t think there is any “seems” about it. Referring to it as an abuse is pretty clear cut in my book.

In defense of Luther here let me just interject that he may be writing about things that he saw happening either in particular places or by particular individuals or groups. He may not be referring to actual Church teaching.
In other words…he may be speaking to something more particular to his time and place than to something we would recognize today.

Just a thought…
Peace
James
Click to expand...
You’re right, it is pretty clear cut. And it does make sense that Luther was possibly speaking to something particular to his time, but surely he could have made the distinction between Church teaching, and those who don’t practice or go far beyond what the Church teaches. I mean, where has the Church taught that we are to worship saints? It’s quite ridiculous. Even though, for example, some of the more fanatic followers of St. Padre Pio might have come close to worshiping the saint. People do get carried away. But still, to say that we should not have recourse to the saints to pray for us is also extreme.
 
Denise1957 said:
You’re right, it is pretty clear cut. And it does make sense that Luther was possibly speaking to something particular to his time, but surely he could have made the distinction between Church teaching, and those who don’t practice or go far beyond what the Church teaches. I mean, where has the Church taught that we are to worship saints? It’s quite ridiculous. Even though, for example, some of the more fanatic followers of St. Padre Pio might have come close to worshiping the saint. People do get carried away. But still, to say that we should not have recourse to the saints to pray for us is also extreme.
Click to expand...
Well - I don’t know the answers here and can only offer my opinion based on a limited understanding.
But consider that, again, we are dealing with a very different time and place. It wasn’t as though they had instant access to all the Church documents and some bishops etc may have been acting and teaching in a way that blurred the line between actual Church teaching and the abuses that Luther was addressing.
Look at what has happened in our time with the rather 'wide" interpretation of Vatican II.

Similarly in Luther’s time there was abuse of indulgences - and this abuse was NOT being actively corrected everywhere…in fact one can pretty safely say that some bishops were likely actively encouraging it.

Just my thoughts on the matter…

Peace
James
 
A good read on devotion to Mary is articulated in the Anglican-Catholic Commission with consensus of “not . . communion-dividing” related to the blessed Virgin’s intercession. Anglican and Lutheran acknowledge and praise Mary for praying with and for us. The Catholic emphasis is the same and includes invoking holy Mary to pray for us.
Mary Grace and Hope in Christ. The Anglican-Roman Catholic International Commission (ARCIC) an Agreed Statement
Click to expand...
63 Anglicans have asked whether it would be a condition of the future restoration of full communion that they should be required to accept the definitions of 1854 and 1950. Roman Catholics find it hard to envisage a restoration of communion in which acceptance of certain doctrines would be requisite for some and not for others. In addressing these issues, we have been mindful that “one consequence of our separation has been a tendency for Anglicans and Roman Catholics alike to exaggerate the importance of the Marian dogmas in themselves at the expense of the other truths more closely related to the foundation of the Christian faith” (Authority II 30). Anglicans and Roman Catholics agree that the doctrines of the Assumption and the Immaculate Conception of Mary must be understood in the light of the more central truth of her identity as Theotókos, which itself depends on faith in the Incarnation. We recognize that, following the Second Vatican Council and the teaching of recent Popes, the Christological and ecclesiological context for the Church’s doctrine concerning Mary is being re-received within the Roman Catholic Church. We now suggest that the adoption of an eschatological perspective may deepen our shared understanding of the place of Mary in the economy of grace, and the tradition of the Church concerning Mary which both our communions receive. Our hope is that the Roman Catholic Church and the Anglican Communion will recognize a common faith in the agreement concerning Mary which we here offer. Such a re-reception would mean the Marian teaching and devotion within our respective communities, including differences of emphasis, would be seen to be authentic expressions of Christian belief.[13] Any such re-reception would have to take place within the context of a mutual re-reception of an effective teaching authority in the Church, such as that set out in The Gift of Authority.
Click to expand...
75 Affirming together unambiguously Christ’s unique mediation, which bears fruit in the life of the Church, we do not consider the practice of asking Mary and the saints to pray for us as communion dividing. Since obstacles of the past have been removed by clarification of doctrine, by liturgical reform and practical norms in keeping with it, we believe that there is no continuing theological reason for ecclesial division on these matters.
anglicancommunion.org/ministry/ecumenical/dialogues/catholic/arcic/docs/mary_grace%20_and_hope.cfm
Click to expand...
 
EvangelCatholic said:
That is a Marian expression Lutherans would not state. Yes to the Nativity of the blessed Virgin Mary, Annunciation, Assumption Virgin of Guadalupe. I suppose if one truly believes the Incarnation there is acceptance of Mary’s Role. ** Luther prayed the rosary but also reminded Christians that devotion to Mary is secondary to devotion to Christ**.
Click to expand...
So the reality is that when we pray the rosary we are focused on our salvation and the life of Christ. For instance, when you pray the rosary on Fridays you are to focus on the five sorrowful mysteries listed here:
rosary-center.org/sorrow.htm
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Lutheran Rosary is Christocentric prayerbedes.com/?page_id=53 though their are variations that include the Angelus.
Click to expand...
The Lutheran Rosary does seem to contain some good elements, but I haven’t looked at them specifically, so I can’t tell for sure how they line up with a Catholic interpretation. The Lutheran Rosary, as listed in the link provided, focuses on meditations of the Cross, Commandments, Creed, Lord’s Prayer, Confession, and Sacrament of the altar.

As ptisme has already pointed out, the Catholic Rosary focuses on the life of Christ, (from the Annunciation to the Resurrection and descent of the Holy Ghost upon the Apostles). There are two decades in the Glorious Mysteries that focus on the Blessed Virgin specifically (Assumption and Coronation).

So…did Martin Luther have a problem with the Catholic version? Is the Lutheran Rosary composed by Martin Luther, or by another Lutheran? I ask this because it’s quite different than the Catholic one. Also, Martin Luther does not seem to want to include that second part of the Hail Mary, which Catholics always say, which is…“Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.”
Why did Martin Luther have a problem with this part of the Hail Mary?
 
Denise1957 said:
The Lutheran Rosary does seem to contain some good elements, but I haven’t looked at them specifically, so I can’t tell for sure how they line up with a Catholic interpretation. The Lutheran Rosary, as listed in the link provided, focuses on meditations of the Cross, Commandments, Creed, Lord’s Prayer, Confession, and Sacrament of the altar.

As ptisme has already pointed out, the Catholic Rosary focuses on the life of Christ, (from the Annunciation to the Resurrection and descent of the Holy Ghost upon the Apostles). There are two decades in the Glorious Mysteries that focus on the Blessed Virgin specifically (Assumption and Coronation).

So…did Martin Luther have a problem with the Catholic version? Is the Lutheran Rosary composed by Martin Luther, or by another Lutheran? I ask this because it’s quite different than the Catholic one. Also, Martin Luther does not seem to want to include that second part of the Hail Mary, which Catholics always say, which is…“Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.”
Why did Martin Luther have a problem with this part of the Rosary?
Click to expand...
The second part of the Hail Mary wasn’t added until after Trent. Therefore the Rosary that Luther prayed would have omitted this part of the Hail Mary.

At first Luther didn’t have a problem with the Catholic Rosary, but over time he jettisoned the practice, and advised Lutherans to do the same. Many of his late sermons are focused on trying to ween people off of praying to Mary and the saints.

That being said, Lutheran theologians and reformers kept up the practice for a while.

The Lutheran Rosary is definitely a later invention though, I don’t know any Lutheran that prays it. I would have a problem with it if they chose to though.
 
House_Harkonnen said:
The second part of the Hail Mary wasn’t added until after Trent. Therefore the Rosary that Luther prayed would have omitted this part of the Hail Mary.

At first Luther didn’t have a problem with the Catholic Rosary, but over time he jettisoned the practice, and advised Lutherans to do the same. Many of his late sermons are focused on trying to ween people off of praying to Mary and the saints.

That being said, Lutheran theologians and reformers kept up the practice for a while.

The Lutheran Rosary is definitely a later invention though, I don’t know any Lutheran that prays it. I would have a problem with it if they chose to though.
Click to expand...
So who was it that came up with the second half of the Catholic Rosary at Trent, or after Trent? Was it one person, or several?

I’m sorry that you seem to have such disdain for the Blessed Virgin Mary.
 
Denise1957 said:
So who was it that came up with the second half of the Catholic Rosary at Trent? Was it one person, or several?

I’m sorry that you seem to have such disdain for the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Click to expand...
So who was it that came up with the second half of the Catholic Rosary at Trent? Was it one person, or several.
Click to expand...
It was in use before Trent, just not in a “codified” sense.
I’m sorry that you seem to have such disdain for the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Click to expand...
Where have I said ONE thing that was disdainful of The Virgin Mary? I don’t think I have said anything disdainful of her.
 
House_Harkonnen said:
It was in use before Trent, just not in a “codified” sense.

Where have I said ONE thing that was disdainful of The Virgin Mary? I don’t think I have said anything disdainful of her.
Click to expand...
I recall that you stated recently on this thread that if there were a statue of the BVM at your church, that you would leave it, or words to that effect. That sounds disdainful to me.
 
Denise1957 said:
The Lutheran Rosary does seem to contain some good elements, but I haven’t looked at them specifically, so I can’t tell for sure how they line up with a Catholic interpretation. The Lutheran Rosary, as listed in the link provided, focuses on meditations of the Cross, Commandments, Creed, Lord’s Prayer, Confession, and Sacrament of the altar.

As ptisme has already pointed out, the Catholic Rosary focuses on the life of Christ, (from the Annunciation to the Resurrection and descent of the Holy Ghost upon the Apostles). There are two decades in the Glorious Mysteries that focus on the Blessed Virgin specifically (Assumption and Coronation).

So…did Martin Luther have a problem with the Catholic version? Is the Lutheran Rosary composed by Martin Luther, or by another Lutheran? I ask this because it’s quite different than the Catholic one. Also, Martin Luther does not seem to want to include that second part of the Hail Mary, which Catholics always say, which is…“Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.”
Why did Martin Luther have a problem with this part of the Hail Mary?
Click to expand...
Lutherans meditate on the Small Catechism but our major saints days/ feast days are the same as Catholic calendar. The seminary [LCMS] were I was a student celebrated a daily Mass [except Saturdays] . I remember classmates praying the Catholic rosary / religious communities ringing the Angelus.

This is were it obviously doesn’t matter 😃
 
Denise1957 said:
I recall that you stated recently on this thread that if there were a statue of the BVM at your church, that you would leave it, or words to that effect. That sounds disdainful to me.
Click to expand...
That’s not what I said at all.

And I came back later and said that I don’t have a problem with it.

I await your apology for slandering me by saying I am “disdainful” of Mary.
 
House_Harkonnen said:
That’s not what I said at all.

And I came back later and said that I don’t have a problem with it.

I await your apology for slandering me by saying I am “disdainful” of Mary.
Click to expand...
Here’s the post where you said that if there were statues, that you would ask for them to be removed:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12224122&postcount=140

And then you said that if they weren’t removed, that you would go Orthodox or something:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12224687&postcount=157

I took that to mean that you would leave your church. I didn’t see a post where you said that you didn’t have a problem with it.
 
If I may speak for him I believe his problem is with the statues and not Mary.
 
ptisme said:
If I may speak for him I believe his problem is with the statues and not Mary.
Click to expand...
You mean to say…statues of Mary? And if he doesn’t have a problem with the Blessed Virgin Mary, then it might be a good idea to explain it. I’m tired of the disdainful comments from him.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top