Devotion to Mary

[JRKH]

No. They shredded my strongly worded letter, then put my strongly painted picture up in a church just to spite me.

LOL, that’s funny!

I wonder if now is a good time for the old (but post Vat II) Catholic joke about worshiping statues…

A Protestant accused a Catholic of worshiping Statues. The Catholic responds that they use to but now, since Vatican two, we worship banners…

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/...MnjyFCJ2QL7Jjl59RhtOXJ58FepC3aoQbNSAqP_yCZL7m
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/...MLHvQC4ylWa4nhIxlpzv4Tonk9ZV_VFlH04FOkbvUXIp1

Peace
James

 

[adrift]

Because I have read the bible and dont remember any statues of men being used by god’s people. I guess mosus kinda STOOD like a statue with the rod up so the war would remain in the Jews favor. So maybe that! Past that, i dont know.

Numbers 21:8-9
Exodus 25:18-20

Show me the verse that says you will find everything in the Bible and only in the
Bible?

 

[benhur]

The second part of the Hail Mary wasn’t added until after Trent. Therefore the Rosary that Luther prayed would have omitted this part of the Hail Mary.

At first Luther didn’t have a problem with the Catholic Rosary, but over time he jettisoned the practice, and advised Lutherans to do the same. Many of his late sermons are focused on trying to ween people off of praying to Mary and the saints.

That being said, Lutheran theologians and reformers kept up the practice for a while.

The Lutheran Rosary is definitely a later invention though, I don’t know any Lutheran that prays it. I would have a problem with it if they chose to though.

Interesting. How well do we know that Luther only prayed the first part ? Seems important to me. As you also mention it is important to be careful with his writings and at what stage of his life did he write them. I have seen his quotes going both ways, with little reference to time period. So I am thankful for your statement about weening people off.

 

[benhur]

benhur;12225068:

The crucifix is a representation of Christ crucified.

Could it be considered a graven image, in OT sense ? Of course it is at least a representation. Some do ask do we really need one, as saints ? After all, He is supposed to reside in us, closer than a brother, not to mention His Word, and His communion remembrance, all at least quite representative and for sure “proper”.

The verse speaks for itself.

Amen. Eye of the beholder (not in a relativistic sense)…Thanks for date on icons

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Sure…but those were mostly found in cemeteries.

But it was only after the reformation that Luther and his protestant heirs started making a big deal of these images and started smashing them…

And thus borne the protestant scrupulosity on the images of saints, of the BVM…

Lutherans did not remove images of the saints and still have shrines to the Blessed Virgin. There was some minor iconoclasms in Denmark.

 

[steido01]

Sure…but those were mostly found in cemeteries.

But it was only after the reformation that Luther and his protestant heirs started making a big deal of these images and started smashing them…

And thus borne the protestant scrupulosity on the images of saints, of the BVM…

Hi pablope,

Just to add to what EC has already said… Lutherans have never been iconoclasts. Martin Luther:

I have myself heard those who oppose pictures, read from my German Bible. … But this contains many pictures of God, of the angels, of men, and of animals, especially in the Revelation of St. John, in the books of Moses, and in the book of Joshua. We therefore kindly beg these fanatics to permit us also to paint these pictures on the wall that they may be remembered and better understood, inasmuch as they can harm as little on the walls as in books. Would to God that I could persuade those who can afford it to paint the whole Bible on their houses, inside and outside, so that all might see; this would indeed be a Christian work. For I am convinced that it is God’s will that we should hear and learn what He has done, especially what Christ suffered. But when I hear these things and meditate upon them, I find it impossible not to picture them in my heart. Whether I want to or not, when I hear, of Christ, a human form hanging upon a cross rises up in my heart: just as I see my natural face reflected when I look into water. Now if it is not sinful for me to have Christ’s picture in my heart, why should it be sinful to have it before my eyes?

Source

 

[Googler]

I have read that, before his death, Martin Luther protested that Mary was no more holy than any other son or daughter of Adam, no more holy than himself.

Is Nestorianism at the root of Lutheran Protestantism?

This was condemned by the Catholic Church at the Council of Ephesus, in 431. The child Mary gave birth to was true God, a Divine Person, without sin, without concupiscence, being one person both God and man. Nestorius claimed that there were two persons in Christ, not one, a divine person and a human person, and that Mary was mother only of the human person. Jesus, the human being was not God, denying Jesus’ divinity, thereby denying we may invoke Our Lady. She is not, he believed, the Mother of God. So she doesn’t have any more influence than you or I with Him.

Catholic’s believe she is the Mother of God, the dignity and power Mary has before her Son comes from the fact that the child she conceived and gave birth to, though having a human nature, nevertheless was God Himself.

In the Hail Mary we say “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners.” We don’t think Our Lady, or the saints, or the angels are somehow substitutes for God. We are asking them to intercede for us.

 

[steido01]

I have read that, before his death, Martin Luther protested that Mary was no more holy than any other son or daughter of Adam, no more holy than himself.

Is Nestorianism at the root of Lutheran Protestantism?

This was condemned by the Catholic Church at the Council of Ephesus, in 431. The child Mary gave birth to was true God, a Divine Person, without sin, without concupiscence, being one person both God and man. Nestorius claimed that there were two persons in Christ, not one, a divine person and a human person, and that Mary was mother only of the human person. Jesus, the human being was not God, denying Jesus’ divinity, thereby denying we may invoke Our Lady. She is not, he believed, the Mother of God. So she doesn’t have any more influence than you or I with Him.

Catholic’s believe she is the Mother of God, the dignity and power Mary has before her Son comes from the fact that the child she conceived and gave birth to, though having a human nature, nevertheless was God Himself.

In the Hail Mary we say “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners.” We don’t think Our Lady, or the saints, or the angels are somehow substitutes for God. We are asking them to intercede for us.

Ugh. No, we have nothing to do with Nestorianism. We condemn it just as you and every other orthodox body. Further, we Lutherans also call Mary the Theotokos - she is rightly called the Mother of God. It’s quite plain in our Confessions. Don’t know where you’re getting your info - it’s wrong. Even the wiki is more accurate: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheran_Marian_theology

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Today is Mary, Mother of our Lord Day. I came across this prayer taken from the Lutheran-Catholic Commission on Unity

O God, you have taken to yourself the blessed Virgin Mary, mother of your incarnate Son: Grant that we, who have been redeemed by his blood, may share with her the glory of your eternal kingdom; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen.74

 

[ptisme]

Today is Mary, Mother of our Lord Day. I came across this prayer taken from the Lutheran-Catholic Commission on Unity

That is an outstanding prayer. BTW, today is the feast of the assumption of Mary. Mary Mother of God day is Jan,1. God bless, PT

 

[canis73]

Yes I agree and this is where it gets complicated. Lutherans understand the role Mary played in the Incarnation; she bore our salvation so it is almost impossible to separate Mary from Jesus. Luther said we are to refer to Mary as second only to the holy Trinity. But for the sake of church unity we do not require our parishes to hold especially holy days to Mary or any other saints though the practice is a good one.

Does that make sense?

Of course it does. Luther used to be a Catholic

 

[EvangelCatholic]

That is an outstanding prayer. BTW, today is the feast of the assumption of Mary. Mary Mother of God day is Jan,1. God bless, PT

I think today, the Feast of the Assumption is a relatively new holy day devoted to Mary among many Christians other than Catholics. Orthodox and Anglicans refer to Mary’s Dormition or Falling Asleep. Lutherans in north America honor Mary as today’s collect prays:

O God, you have taken to yourself the blessed Virgin Mary, mother of your incarnate Son: Grant that we, who have been redeemed by his blood, may share with her the glory of your eternal kingdom; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen

Lutherans in Europe refer to the Assumption of holy Mary. There are several more Marian days:
Presentation of Our Lord and Purification of the blessed Virgin Mary
Annunciation of Our Lord to the Mother of God
Visitation of the blessed Virgin Mary to St Elizabeth
Nativity of the blessed Virgin Mary
Conception of the blessed Virgin Mary

I know of a parish in Texas that is devoted to Our Lady of Guadalupe but most Lutherans in north America have had very little exposure to Mary due to anti-catholic sentiments during the 1800’s/ early 1900’s.

 

[ptisme]

I think today, the Feast of the Assumption is a relatively new holy day devoted to Mary among many Christians other than Catholics. Orthodox and Anglicans refer to Mary’s Dormition or Falling Asleep. Lutherans in north America honor Mary as today’s collect prays:

O God, you have taken to yourself the blessed Virgin Mary, mother of your incarnate Son: Grant that we, who have been redeemed by his blood, may share with her the glory of your eternal kingdom; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen

Lutherans in Europe refer to the Assumption of holy Mary. There are several more Marian days:
Presentation of Our Lord and Purification of the blessed Virgin Mary
Annunciation of Our Lord to the Mother of God
Visitation of the blessed Virgin Mary to St Elizabeth
Nativity of the blessed Virgin Mary
Conception of the blessed Virgin Mary

I know of a parish in Texas that is devoted to Our Lady of Guadalupe but most Lutherans in north America have had very little exposure to Mary due to anti-catholic sentiments during the 1800’s/ early 1900’s.

Question: Is “Mary the Ark of the New Covenant” just a Catholic thought?

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Question: Is “Mary the Ark of the New Covenant” just a Catholic thought?

Yes, the Incarnation is Mary as Mother of God; the sacred vessel of the New Covenant.

Luther held to Marian devotion but cautioned Christians as well:

About Martin Luther: About Martin Luther: The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart. (Sermon, September 1, 1522). The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart. (Sermon, September 1, 1522). Whoever possesses a good (firm) faith, says the Hail Mary without danger! Whoever is weak in faith can utter no Hail Mary without danger to his salvation. (Sermon, March 11, 1523).

 

[ptisme]

Yes, the Incarnation is Mary as Mother of God; the sacred vessel of the New Covenant.

Luther held to Marian devotion but cautioned Christians as well:

I think the Marian thing is semantics. We pray for her intercession, not to her. The Catholic belief is Mary should be venerated for what she was as a human but she is still a human. Any honor or homage that she has is because of Christ. I mentioned this on a different site and maybe you’ll appreciate this: Look at Mary as being like a pair of glasses. We look through the glasses to bring Christ into focus. If we begin to focus on the glasses themselves it’s idolatry. Everything Mary is about is bringing us closer to her Son. Jn 2 vs 5: 'His mother said to the servers, “Do whatever he tells you.”

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I think the Marian thing is semantics. We pray for her intercession, not to her. The Catholic belief is Mary should be venerated for what she was as a human but she is still a human. Any honor or homage that she has is because of Christ. I mentioned this on a different site and maybe you’ll appreciate this: Look at Mary as being like a pair of glasses. We look through the glasses to bring Christ into focus. If we begin to focus on the glasses themselves it’s idolatry. Everything Mary is about is bringing us closer to her Son. Jn 2 vs 5: 'His mother said to the servers, “Do whatever he tells you.”

Excellent statement of faith no Lutheran could argue with.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, Evangel Catholic, for sharing the statement on Mary.

She magnifies the Lord…she brings Him into focus like no other intercessory grace, and she personifies that our faith is based on grace…Mary is full of grace!

So many Christians do not realize the tremendous grace Mary has in bringing us closer to Jesus, so many Christians do not realize the wonderful day to day companionship Mary brings in magnifying His kingdom among us, Mary’s great grace in protecting our hearts from breaking.

We stay with her in times of sorrow, in times where our own faith is challenged…she is with us in our walk in the Cross and is our greatest advocate at the time of death.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Any thoughts on why Luther, on one hand, praises/ prays for Mary’s intercession, and yet cautions Lutherans to not say the Hail Mary unless one’s faith is strong?

 

[ptisme]

Any thoughts on why Luther, on one hand, praises/ prays for Mary’s intercession, and yet cautions Lutherans to not say the Hail Mary unless one’s faith is strong?

Luther was a Catholic Priest. He was raised with the idea that we should hold the mother of God in high esteem. Somewhere along the way, Lutherans, to some extent, lost track of the Blessed Virgin but that certainly wasn’t Martin Luther’s intent. It should be noted however, that Luther felt Mary should not be held with the same esteem that our Lord is (just as today’s Catholics feel).

 

[ptisme]

Excellent statement of faith no Lutheran could argue with.

I’m impressed with the courage you show by going out and learning first hand what it is we believe. Questions for you:

1. Were you raised Lutheran?
2. What caused you to want to come over here to investigate?
3. Given that you apparently have similar beliefs re Mary that Catholics do, do you ever find yourself defending the Catholic position on her when you come across fellow protestants who mistakenly accuse RC’s of “Marian idolatry”?