Devotion to Mary

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I’m impressed with the courage you show by going out and learning first hand what it is we believe. Questions for you:
  1. Were you raised Lutheran?
  2. What caused you to want to come over here to investigate?
  3. Given that you apparently have similar beliefs re Mary that Catholics do, do you ever find yourself defending the Catholic position on her when you come across fellow protestants who mistakenly accuse RC’s of “Marian idolatry”?
I was baptized in an Augustana Synod [now ELCA] parish but the closest church was LCMS where I attended school from parochial to seminary *. Lutheranism in metro New York/ New Jersey seemed ‘catholic’ even when I was a kid so statues/ icons of Mary are fairly common [also in seminaries, retreat houses].

My interest is ecumenism and though not always well received on CAF, I have never found another site willing to listen to me! [and that is the truth]. 😃

Any educated Lutheran knows there is historic precedent/ latitude for Marian devotion. I have 2 Catholic daughter-in-laws who make fun of me that I am more catholic than them!*
 
I was baptized in an Augustana Synod [now ELCA] parish but the closest church was LCMS where I attended school from parochial to seminary *. Lutheranism in metro New York/ New Jersey seemed ‘catholic’ even when I was a kid so statues/ icons of Mary are fairly common [also in seminaries, retreat houses].

My interest is ecumenism and though not always well received on CAF, I have never found another site willing to listen to me! [and that is the truth]. 😃

Any educated Lutheran knows there is historic precedent/ latitude for Marian devotion. I have 2 Catholic daughter-in-laws who make fun of me that I am more catholic than them!*

How do you reconcile what you are saying here with the confessional statements of your denomination? The Book of Concord says that invocation of the saints is an “abide of the Antichrist” and “destroys the knowledge of Christ.” It also says that holding feasts and masses in honor of the saints and veneration in general is idolatry. These statements are from the Smalcald Articles, written by Luther himself, which I quoted earlier in this thread.
 
How do you reconcile what you are saying here with the confessional statements of your denomination? The Book of Concord says that invocation of the saints is an “abide of the Antichrist” and “destroys the knowledge of Christ.” It also says that holding feasts and masses in honor of the saints and veneration in general is idolatry. These statements are from the Smalcald Articles, written by Luther himself, which I quoted earlier in this thread.
Again, I am not qualified to answer and defer to posters like the Forum Elder Jon or KjetilK. My sense is that things got very heated between Luther and the Roman Catholic church that may no longer apply today. Thus the Lutheran-Catholic Commission on Unity.
 
How do you reconcile what you are saying here with the confessional statements of your denomination? The Book of Concord says that invocation of the saints is an “abide of the Antichrist” and “destroys the knowledge of Christ.” It also says that holding feasts and masses in honor of the saints and veneration in general is idolatry. These statements are from the Smalcald Articles, written by Luther himself, which I quoted earlier in this thread.
Do you have a more precise citation?
 
Do you have a more precise citation?
Of the Invocation of Saints.
25] The invocation of saints is also one of the abuses of Antichrist conflicting with the chief article, and destroys the knowledge of Christ. Neither is it commanded nor counseled, nor has it any example [or testimony] in Scripture, and even though it were a precious thing, as it is not [while, on the contrary, it is a most harmful thing], in Christ we have everything a thousandfold better [and surer, so that we are not in need of calling upon the saints].
26] And although the angels in heaven pray for us (as Christ Himself also does), as also do the saints on earth, and perhaps also in heaven, yet it does not follow thence that we should invoke and adore the angels and saints, and fast, hold festivals, celebrate Mass in their honor, make offerings, and establish churches, altars, divine worship, and in still other ways serve them, and regard them as helpers in need [as patrons and intercessors], and divide among them all kinds of help, and ascribe to each one a particular form of assistance, as the Papists teach and do. For this is idolatry, and such honor belongs alone to God. 27] For as a Christian and saint upon earth you can pray for me, not only in one, but in many necessities. But for this reason I am not obliged to adore and invoke you, and celebrate festivals, fast, make oblations, hold masses for your honor [and worship], and put my faith in you for my salvation. I can in other ways indeed honor, love, and thank you in Christ. 28] If now such idolatrous honor were withdrawn from angels and departed saints, the remaining honor would be without harm and would quickly be forgotten. For when advantage and assistance, both bodily and spiritual, are no more to be expected, the saints will not be troubled [the worship of the saints will soon vanish], neither in their graves nor in heaven. For without a reward or out of pure love no one will much remember, or esteem, or honor them [bestow on them divine honor].
bookofconcord.org/smalcald.php#invocationofsaints

Luther’s complaint here has more to do with abuses, it seems, than of invocation itself. Regarding invocation, here essentially repeating Melanchthon’s comment in the Apology of the Augsburg Confession that:
Moreover, even supposing that the saints pray for the Church ever so much, 10] yet it does not follow that they are to be invoked; although our Confession affirms only this, that Scripture does not teach the invocation of the saints, or that we are to ask the saints for aid. But since neither a command, nor a promise, nor an example can be produced from the Scriptures concerning the invocation of saints, it follows that conscience can have nothing concerning this invocation that is certain.

The concern is the requirement to invoke the saints, without a command, promise, or example from scripture. Were the requirement to believe and/or practice removed, EC’s position is not in contradiction to the confessions, IMO. In many ways, I share it.

Jon
 
I think this is relevant.

I am quite Lutheran, and do not practice the invocation of saints. However, being Lutheran, I understand that they pray for us constantly. So daily I give thanks to God for those Christians that have gone before us. In particular, I thank God for the Theotokos and the special example she set not just for women, but for all the faithful. I thank Him for showing His power by miraculously preserving her virginity. I thank Him that my infant daughter will grow up with such an incredible example, and I pray that my little one will emulate those same qualities God blessed Mary with, and that she will grow strong in faith and great in grace, just as Mary. So we celebrated the Feast of Mary last week by visiting the Shrine of Our Lady of Guadeloupe and contemplating how glad (there’s an understatement!) she must’ve been to know that she would bear earth’s salvation in the flesh! We thanked God for her life - her willingness to do what God asked of her serves as an example of how to seek Christ. When the cult of the saints remains Christ-focused, even the most old-school Lutheran can’t help but appreciate those who have gone before.

If you live anywhere near Wisconsin, or even of you don’t, the shrine is worth the pilgrimage. From the weekend: http://s27.postimg.org/asj6e28zn/image.jpg
 
bookofconcord.org/smalcald.php#invocationofsaints

Luther’s complaint here has more to do with abuses, it seems, than of invocation itself. Regarding invocation, here essentially repeating Melanchthon’s comment in the Apology of the Augsburg Confession that:
Moreover, even supposing that the saints pray for the Church ever so much, 10] yet it does not follow that they are to be invoked; although our Confession affirms only this, that Scripture does not teach the invocation of the saints, or that we are to ask the saints for aid. But since neither a command, nor a promise, nor an example can be produced from the Scriptures concerning the invocation of saints, it follows that conscience can have nothing concerning this invocation that is certain.

The concern is the requirement to invoke the saints, without a command, promise, or example from scripture. Were the requirement to believe and/or practice removed, EC’s position is not in contradiction to the confessions, IMO. In many ways, I share it.

Jon
Let’s examine if there is biblical support for the invocation of Saints…

OK, so if agree that it is a useful and salutary practice to pray for one another; fully aware that there is but one mediator (1Tim2:5), we understand that when we are praying to Jesus for one another, we are not violating this biblical rule because Christ is still the one mediator. Where we disagree is whether it’s appropriate to pray to Saints in heaven. I am confident, that what I have given you from scripture will be appropriate for you to see, that an institution that has been around for 2,000 years did not last that long (with no standing army) by being fraudulent and allow us to pray in vein to people that have no hope of hearing our prayers.
As a Catholic, I believe in the communion of Saints as we profess in our Creed. As Christians we believe in life after death. In fact, we believe that you are never more alive than when you are in heaven. So we first have to look at whether or not they could even hear us. Looking to Rev 5: 8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints”. But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us. Prayers aren’t a tangible item, they are offered to God mentally, which means the Saints are praying and they CAN hear our petitions.

Rev 5:8 is plenty of proof that the invocation of Saints is practical and biblical. Further, contact with the dead is biblical (Matt 17:3). What God has forbidden is the necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits (Deut 18: 10-15). Of course there was Gen 48 when the holy Patriarch Jacob, on his deathbed, prayed for his two grandchildren: “ May the angel that delivers me from all evils bless these boys”. Here he is asking the angel in heaven to obtain a blessing for his grandchildren. We certainly can’t expect that he’d be so ignorant as to pray to one that could not hear him. Further, we have the angel Raphael, after having disclosed himself to Tobias, said to him: “Tobit, when you and Sarah prayed to the Lord, I was the one who brought your prayers into his glorious presence.”(Tob 12:12). This was an example of an Angel, but Jesus declared that the saints in heaven shall be like the angels (Matt 22:30).

Some other examples of Saints intercession: Abraham interceding for Sodom and Gomorrha, Moses interceding for Israel against the Amalekites, the story of Job: Jobs friends were commanded by God to intercede: “Go to My servant Job and offer for yourselves a holocaust, and My servant Job will pray for you and his face will I accept”.
The Israelites believed, like us, that the saints after their death were occupied with praying for us. In 2Macc 15:14 we read that Judas Maccabeus, the night before he was engaged in battle with the army of Nicanor, had a vision, in which he beheld Onias, the High-Priest, and the prophet Jeremiah, both of whom had been long dead. Onias appeared to him with outstretched arms, praying for the people of God. Pointing to Jeremiah he said to Judas Maccabeus: “This is a lover of his brethren and the people of Israel. This is he that prays much for the people and for the holy city, Jeremiah, the Prophet of God”. In the sequel vision, Jeremiah(long dead) handed his sword to Maccabeus, with which the prophet predicted that Maccabeus would conquer his enemies. In Zech 1:12-13 we see the prophet Zachariah recording a prayer that was offered by the angel for the people of God, and the favorable answer which came from heaven.
 
I think this is relevant.

I am quite Lutheran, and do not practice the invocation of saints. However, being Lutheran, I understand that they pray for us constantly. So daily I give thanks to God for those Christians that have gone before us. In particular, I thank God for the Theotokos and the special example she set not just for women, but for all the faithful. I thank Him for showing His power by miraculously preserving her virginity. I thank Him that my infant daughter will grow up with such an incredible example, and I pray that my little one will emulate those same qualities God blessed Mary with, and that she will grow strong in faith and great in grace, just as Mary. So we celebrated the Feast of Mary last week by visiting the Shrine of Our Lady of Guadeloupe and contemplating how glad (there’s an understatement!) she must’ve been to know that she would bear earth’s salvation in the flesh! We thanked God for her life - her willingness to do what God asked of her serves as an example of how to seek Christ. When the cult of the saints remains Christ-focused, even the most old-school Lutheran can’t help but appreciate those who have gone before.

If you live anywhere near Wisconsin, or even of you don’t, the shrine is worth the pilgrimage. From the weekend: http://s27.postimg.org/asj6e28zn/image.jpg
So well spoken and so Catholic sounding… Won’t you come back steido?👍
 
Lutherans in north America should be mindful of how the blessed Virgin is honored in our European churches. It seems only Catholics build churches that look like this any more! 😦
 
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