Devotion to wrong religion vs lukewarmness towards right one?

[estesbob]

There must be a lot more Norsemen where you live as I know of no communions of Thor in my entire state. The decision on lukewarm Catholics is up to God. I’ve been a lukewarm Baptist before and it seemed to have little to no value at all.

The truth is both conditions are harmful-we are arguing about degrees of harmfulness which generally is not very productive. . We should pray that the Catholic become more devout and that our separated brethren come to the One True Church

 

[ProdglArchitect]

The truth is both conditions are harmful-we are arguing about degrees of harmfulness which generally is not very productive. . We should pray that the Catholic become more devout and that our separated brethren come to the One True Church

I agree with this, but the topic’s focus was on degrees, so that’s what we were addressing.

 

[SMH_2015]

Not to mention that in some parts of the world Christianity (even owning a Bible) can be extremely detrimental to your health. If you had the misfortune of being born in, say, Saudi Arabia, chances are very good that you would be raised a Muslim & know very little about Jesus as Savior. Perhaps you are even a devout Muslim. Would not a merciful God take this into account? (Yes, I know there are Muslims who convert, but they are few & far between, & often it does not end well for them.)

 

[Memaw]

I am curious how being devoted to a false god can be better than following Jesus Christ but not being devout?

I would put my money on the lukewarm Catholic hoping he would become more devout.And pray for both. God Bless, Memaw

 

[estesbob]

I would put my money on the lukewarm Catholic hoping he would become more devout.And pray for both. God Bless, Memaw

Me too!

 

[SimmieKay]

That’s why I specified that the false faith is the only thing you know. If you don’t know any better then you cannot be held accountable. If, on the other hand, that false faith is the result of a rejection of Christ, then you’re far worse off than the lukewarm Catholic.

Well, let me raise a somewhat related question. Consider a person who was baptised Catholic as a child, but they are now effectively inactive in the Catholic religion - they never go to Mass, they never pray, they make no effort to live their personal life according to the Church’s teaching, etc. Now let’s suppose that person meets (for example) a Muslim evangelist, who convinces them to convert to Islam. And as a Muslim, they are now praying five times a day, going to mosque every week, trying their hardest to order their life by Islamic morality, etc. So, how should a Catholic judge this scenario? On the one hand, they have swapped the most true religion for a less true one; on the other hand, they’ve gone from not worshipping God to worshipping him regularly, from ignoring religious questions to paying careful attention to them, from not making any effort to live their life according to God’s commands to trying to live their life according to (what they believe to be) God’s commands (even if some of their beliefs about what God has commanded are mistaken).

 

[estesbob]

Well, let me raise a somewhat related question. Consider a person who was baptised Catholic as a child, but they are now effectively inactive in the Catholic religion - they never go to Mass, they never pray, they make no effort to live their personal life according to the Church’s teaching, etc. Now let’s suppose that person meets (for example) a Muslim evangelist, who convinces them to convert to Islam. And as a Muslim, they are now praying five times a day, going to mosque every week, trying their hardest to order their life by Islamic morality, etc. So, how should a Catholic judge this scenario? On the one hand, they have swapped the most true religion for a less true one; on the other hand, they’ve gone from not worshipping God to worshipping him regularly, from ignoring religious questions to paying careful attention to them, from not making any effort to live their life according to God’s commands to trying to live their life according to (what they believe to be) God’s commands (even if some of their beliefs about what God has commanded are mistaken).

On the face of it would seem someone raised in the Catholic faith who rejected it would have an awful hard time claiming invincible ignorance when judgment day came .

 

[SimmieKay]

On the face of it would seem someone raised in the Catholic faith who rejected it would have an awful hard time claiming invincible ignorance when judgment day came .

It is completely possible to be raised in the Catholic faith yet also be quite ignorant of it. Nowadays, many Catholic schools do a rather poor job of explaining what the Church teaches and what are the rational arguments in favour of its doctrines. (Of course, not all Catholic schools are guilty of this - but at least some, and possibly many, are.) My own recollection of 11 years of Catholic schooling is that religious education rarely ventured further than “Jesus wants everyone to love one another”, combined with some rather neutral/factual teaching of church history e.g. we learnt about Martin Luther, with some brief mention of how his views differed from the Catholic view, but there was no attempt made to convince the students that the Catholic view was right and that Luther was wrong (that would be rather unecumenical, wouldn’t it now?) And similar comments could be made about many parishes even. So, if a person raised Catholic is ignorant of the truth of the Church’s teachings, can we be sure that their ignorance is vincible? Does not the Church, through its failure (in many cases) to teach its own doctrines to the faithful, bear some of the blame when they go on to reject those doctrines?

 

[arthra]

Hi

Who displeases God more - the devout follower of the wrong religion, or the half-hearted/lukewarm/lazy follower of the right one?

I’m interested to know answers to this question from different religious perspectives (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, etc.)

Thank you
Simon

I think I speak for many Baha’is… and that is, that there is no “wrong” religion. The religion of God is one… various Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent through the ages for our guidance. They have taught what was needed by humanity from age to age… The spiritual teachings are one… The social ordinances and laws vary according to the needs of people they were revealed for…

Abdul-Baha citing Baha’u’llah wrote:

“Consort with [people of all] religions with spirituality and fragrance… Beware lest the zeal of ignorance possess you amongst mankind. All originated from God and returneth unto Him: verily He is the Source of creation and the Goal of the worlds.”

~ Abdu’l-Baha, A Traveller’s Narrative, p. 83

 

[SimmieKay]

I think I speak for many Baha’is… and that is, that there is no “wrong” religion. The religion of God is one… various Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent through the ages for our guidance. They have taught what was needed by humanity from age to age… The spiritual teachings are one… The social ordinances and laws vary according to the needs of people they were revealed for…

What about the followers of Mason Remey and Joel Marangella, the so-called “Orthodox Baha’i Faith” - are they the wrong religion? Surely, by declaring them to be “covenant-breakers”, the Universal House of Justice has declared them to be the wrong religion?

How about Satanism - is that the wrong religion?

Surely you would agree that some religions are more correct than others, and that you view your own religion as the most correct? For surely if you thought another religion was more correct than your own, you would be converting to that religion?

Simon

 

[TK421]

Hi

Who displeases God more - the devout follower of the wrong religion, or the half-hearted/lukewarm/lazy follower of the right one?

I’m interested to know answers to this question from different religious perspectives (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, etc.)

Thank you
Simon

Luke 12:47-48:
"And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

A flawed faith is superior (depending on the circumstances, perhaps enormously superior) to lukewarmly following the infallible one, assuming the person in the flawed faith didn’t freely put themselves there, or deliberately remained there in spite of better knowledge.

 

[arthra]

What about the followers of Mason Remey and Joel Marangella, the so-called “Orthodox Baha’i Faith” - are they the wrong religion? Surely, by declaring them to be “covenant-breakers”, the Universal House of Justice has declared them to be the wrong religion?

How about Satanism - is that the wrong religion?

Surely you would agree that some religions are more correct than others, and that you view your own religion as the most correct? For surely if you thought another religion was more correct than your own, you would be converting to that religion?

Simon

Simmie… Thanks for you r post!

Essentially Baha’is do accept that there is one religion of God… down through the ages brought by various Prophets and Messengers.

Can people deny that religion? Of course they can! They can seek to do whatever they believe in… but in the long run the fruits of their efforts will be shown for what they are.

You mentioned Mason Remey above in your post. Mason Remey made a lot of contributions to the Baha’i Cause and it was not until after the passing of Shoghi Effendi in 1957 that he decided to go his own way… Mason wanted to be Guardian but his claim was not accepted and he passed on pretty much isolated some years later.

It was actually the other Hands of the Cause who had to take action in his case… For Catholics it would as if a prelate wanted to be the Supreme Pontiff without an election.

The Universal House of Justice was universally elected in 1963.

 

[SimmieKay]

Thanks for replying as well. But I will be honest and say that I don’t agree with “there is no wrong religion”, and even though you said it, I am struggling to believe that you believe it either. Different religions make contradictory claims. If religion A claims X and religion B claims not-X, then one of those religions must be wrong. Mainstream Christianity (Catholicism included) says that Jesus is God incarnate. Islam says that Jesus is not God incarnate. So, either Christianity is wrong on this point or Islam is wrong on this point, and whichever one is wrong, is therefore the wrong religion (at least on that particular issue).

Can people deny that religion? Of course they can! They can seek to do whatever they believe in… but in the long run the fruits of their efforts will be shown for what they are.

So I take it then, that someone who denies that religion, and chooses to adopt some alternative set of religious views instead, is following the wrong religion?

Mason wanted to be Guardian but his claim was not accepted and he passed on pretty much isolated some years later.

He still has followers to this day. They are not particular numerous - I’ve heard estimates in the range of dozens at the low end to the low thousands at the high end. Obviously the mainstream Baha’i faith, at some several millions of members, is orders of magnitudes larger. But small is not the same as non-existent. So, do you agree that the people who claim to follow Mason Remey to this day, and who reject the Universal House of Justice, are following the wrong religion?

Simon

 

[arthra]

Simmie… or is it Simon? I have an Aunt Simmie…!

Thanks again for your post

A splinter in my view does not a religion make…

Mason did not achieve his goal and what else can be said.

 

[SimmieKay]

Simmie… or is it Simon? I have an Aunt Simmie…!

Thanks again for your post

A splinter in my view does not a religion make…

Mason did not achieve his goal and what else can be said.

“Simmie” is a nickname, “Simon” is my actual name.

Putting aside the whole Mason Remey issue, what would you say in response to my other argument: Christianity says that Jesus is God incarnate, Islam says that Jesus is not God incarnate, since these are contradictory claims, it follows that one of them is wrong. So whether one agrees with the Christian position or the Muslim position, it is clear that at least one out of Christianity or Islam must be the wrong religion. (And I mean wrong in this particular way - a religion can be wrong in some ways yet still right in others, but the things it gets right won’t cancel out the things it gets wrong.)

Simon

 

[arthra]

Thanks for your post Simon…

I think on the issue of the incarnation in Christianity and the view of Islam… It’s best to start where the two agree and work from there… If you look for areas of disagreement you can find them but it’s not necessarily simply “right” and/or “wrong”. There were probably historical and cultural reasons for doctrines if you search back far enough. The mind set of the Greek culture for instance and other issues.

Another issue is that there are differences in laws and ordinances in religion…but consider that there may have been important reasons for these laws in the time they were revealed.

When I consider the term “religion” I look at the etymological root meaning of the word… for instance:

"… the word comes from the two words re and ligare. Re is a prefix meaning “return,” and ligare means “to bind;”

So religion can mean returning to the spiritual origin and binding people together.

 

[Memaw]

Well, let me raise a somewhat related question. Consider a person who was baptised Catholic as a child, but they are now effectively inactive in the Catholic religion - they never go to Mass, they never pray, they make no effort to live their personal life according to the Church’s teaching, etc. Now let’s suppose that person meets (for example) a Muslim evangelist, who convinces them to convert to Islam. And as a Muslim, they are now praying five times a day, going to mosque every week, trying their hardest to order their life by Islamic morality, etc. So, how should a Catholic judge this scenario? On the one hand, they have swapped the most true religion for a less true one; on the other hand, they’ve gone from not worshipping God to worshipping him regularly, from ignoring religious questions to paying careful attention to them, from not making any effort to live their life according to God’s commands to trying to live their life according to (what they believe to be) God’s commands (even if some of their beliefs about what God has commanded are mistaken).

The Catholic Church teaches the truth and the truth only. We don’t judge others, that’s God’s job not ours. We cannot read souls!! God Bless, Memaw