Dialogue or Silent?

[childofmary1143]

I would like to ask people if they think the laity at a TLM should respond with the server or keep quiet.

Personally, I don’t see why we shouldn’t as it makes us more involved.

 

[AJV]

Nice post, childofmary. I think it’s a good topic because many people seem to be wary of dialogue Masses. I’ve even read suggestions that the responses should only be made by clerics!

Not to blame them because many people either use the lack of dialogue as a stick to hit adherents of the TLM/EF on the head with, or force everyone to recite the prayers and suggest that people can’t “participate” without it. Hence the defensiveness and the citing of “actual participation” versus “active participation” and so on. And of course, some view the dialogue Mass as a stepping stone to the modern innovations of laity reading, distributing Communion, etc.

Having said that, I think there is such a thing as a “more perfect” form of participating. I recently saw quite a good article by an SSPX priest on it in response, I think, to someone writing in that it was “modernist”. I think it was in the Angelus- I should try and find that again.

To be sure, if someone is just gabbling through the responses and someone else is praying in deep interior contemplation without uttering a word, the graces received by the latter will be more. But surely the prayers of the Church in the Mass have a much better additional benefit, ex opera operantis, than other prayers?

Practically speaking, if the congregation may join in with the choir for the Ordinary at High Mass, then why can they not recite the texts at a low Mass?

 

[AJV]

Having said that, I think there is such a thing as a “more perfect” form of participating. I recently saw quite a good article by an SSPX priest on it in response, I think, to someone writing in that it was “modernist”. I think it was in the Angelus- I should try and find that again.

I found it!
Link

 

[kleary]

I would like to ask people if they think the laity at a TLM should respond with the server or keep quiet.

Personally, I don’t see why we shouldn’t as it makes us more involved.

You need to re-word this poll.

The “Dialogue Mass” has the people responding with the server at Low Mass at the “Prayers at the foot of the altar”, the “Sucipe” and praying together with the priest the Pater Noster.

Normally, the people may and are encouraged to respond at low Mass AFTER the prayers at the foot of the altar but not to respond with the server at the Sucipe or pray the Pater Noster with the priest aloud.

I am not for the people responding to the priest during the prayers at the foot of the altar- that must be left to the servers because they are trained how to say the Latin correctly and say the responses at that time for us. It is not a matter of having the congregation more involved. By being silent at that time you already are- it is just the “Novus Ordo mentality” that has you thinking that way. I used to think that way until I myself learned how to serve Mass and say the responses correctly and was actually there in the Sanctuary doing it…the last thing I needed at that time was the people behind me improperly responding or incorrect pronunciation.

Letting the servers do it at those times seems more sacred to me…just leave it alone- have your Dialogue Mass if your community wants it overwhelmingly and your pastor says ok- but for me I will take it the other way.

Ken

 

[marymonde]

I really believe it depends on the disposition of the person during Holy Mass. Some people are more contemplative and are absorbed in the deep mysteries of the mass and remain outwardly silent, although interiorly absorbed in prayer. Others offer their rosaries in union with Holy Mass, so they are concentrating perhaps on the Passion of Our Lord in meditation, which corresponds nicely with what is going on at the altar. Others like active participation and seek uniting their prayer with the server. This is what I love so much about the Tridentine Mass, it allows different methods of union with Christ with how each person presents themselves before Our Lord at the Altar. Each and every person can achieve the correct dispostion that his or her temperament directs towards the soul.

 

[jmcrae]

I have never experienced a dialogue Mass in Latin, so I don’t really know. I happen to like the silence though - it seems very reverent to me.

The servers and priests at the one that I attend are just about inaudible, anyway - it is almost purely a sensory experience, for me - which is really nice; I like it very much - it’s like a really good meditation experience, because I can follow along in my heart, and pray with it in a very undistracted way.

 

[mystified]

There are good points on both sides of this discussion. I like the dialogue Mass most of the time, but there are times when one wants or needs a quiet, contemplative participation in the Holy Sacrifice.
I remember when all Masses in the Roman Rite were in Latin. It seemed almost “improper” when someone, or a lot of “someones” were praying the Rosary at the same time. In the TLMs I’ve attended in recent years, this has not been prevalent. Most of the faithful were either trying ro participate in the people’s parts of the dialogue Mass, or appeared to be paying attention in silence.

 

[childofmary1143]

You need to re-word this poll.

The “Dialogue Mass” has the people responding with the server at Low Mass at the “Prayers at the foot of the altar”, the “Sucipe” and praying together with the priest the Pater Noster.

Oh okay. I didn’t know that.

Normally, the people may and are encouraged to respond at low Mass AFTER the prayers at the foot of the altar but not to respond with the server at the Sucipe or pray the Pater Noster with the priest aloud.

I am not for the people responding to the priest during the prayers at the foot of the altar- that must be left to the servers because they are trained how to say the Latin correctly and say the responses at that time for us. It is not a matter of having the congregation more involved. By being silent at that time you already are- it is just the “Novus Ordo mentality” that has you thinking that way. I used to think that way until I myself learned how to serve Mass and say the responses correctly and was actually there in the Sanctuary doing it…the last thing I needed at that time was the people behind me improperly responding or incorrect pronunciation.

Letting the servers do it at those times seems more sacred to me…just leave it alone- have your Dialogue Mass if your community wants it overwhelmingly and your pastor says ok- but for me I will take it the other way.

Ken

I can appreciate what you say but I must wonder how servers are more experienced than the congregation. Usually servers are young boys (under 10) and I can’t see how they would be more familiar with Latin than the congregation.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

I didn’t choose a poll option because the dichotomy felt too limited. I would reword the question to say “Should the people feel free to make the responses with the servers,” in which case I would say yes. That is because while I agree with AJV’s point that if we can sing it at high Mass we should be able to say it at low Mass, but I also totally agree with marymonde that one of the great strengths of the TLM is the freedom it offers to choose the most fruitful form of participation. Here at Notre Dame the TLM is a Dialogue Mass and I personally just don’t connect with it at all. For me, saying the texts aloud is something I am sometimes moved to do but that often actually distracts me from the prayers; the Dialogue Mass feels to me like so much busywork and a first giant leap toward the shallow understanding of participation cultivated with the post-conciliar reforms. It’s not that I’m opposed to others or even myself saying the parts aloud, I just don’t think there should be an expectation for every person to be saying every single part. Let us pray as best we can.

 

[kleary]

I can appreciate what you say but I must wonder how servers are more experienced than the congregation. Usually servers are young boys (under 10) and I can’t see how they would be more familiar with Latin than the congregation.

Well… when I was trained (at the age of 34) I was given an audio tape to listen to that taught me how to correctly pronounce the Latin. When I trained other servers I myself correctly pronounced the Latin to them and had them repeat the prayers to me pronouncing them correctly.

And believe me…my 3 year old knows how to correctly say some Latin more than most Catholics today.

(Example - the r in “Spiritu” is rolled slightly…in the audio tape it shows that and I passed that along to the servers I trained. The MAJORITY of the congregation pronounces that word as per English, not Ecclesial Latin.)

Ken

 

[DustinsDad]

The question should also be “how” the people should respond. I pray the prayers at the foot of the altar along with priest and server - silently and in my native tounge.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[kleary]

The question should also be “how” the people should respond. I pray the prayers at the foot of the altar along with priest and server - silently and in my native tounge.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

I learned the Latin words…and now pray them as well in silence but in Latin…I like to leave my native tongue at the door as much as possible…)

 

[Silver_Thread]

As a young server and 20yrs after the People did not dialogue. Perhaps mostly because they didn’t know Latin and didn’t have (couldn’t afford) a Missal. Since I do not speak and at the same time comprehend what I’m saying (except for the short responses)… Where’s the contemplation.? I would think that praying the prayers of the Mass in English along with the Priest would allow for greater unity (in mind and heart) with the Priest . If you don’t know Latin how can you contemplate the words, say of the Pater Noster as you are praying. Is that dialogue or mimmicking? Just thought I’d ask.

 

[DustinsDad]

As a young server and 20yrs after the People did not dialogue. Perhaps mostly because they didn’t know Latin and didn’t have (couldn’t afford) a Missal. Since I do not speak and at the same time comprehend what I’m saying (except for the short responses)… Where’s the contemplation.? I would think that praying the prayers of the Mass in English along with the Priest would allow for greater unity (in mind and heart) with the Priest . If you don’t know Latin how can you contemplate the words, say of the Pater Noster as you are praying. Is that dialogue or mimmicking? Just thought I’d ask.

As for the Pater Noster, we all (should) know the words of the Our Father - I see no reason why we can’t silently pray our Our Father in union with the priest’s Pater Noster. I just see it as fitting and proper - the priest offers the prayer in the language of the universal church while we pray from the hearts in union with him.

And for the rest of the mass - it’s a matter of good solid catechesis on the mass. We don’t have to know every word and syllable the priest is saying, but we can be taught the different parts of the mass - what they mean, what they signify, offer, and ask for - and pray silently in our own words these same things, uniting them with that of the priest. This can be done without a missal if need be, but there needs to be some catachesis

With time, we can become more familiar with the exact prayers of the mass and be drawn deeper and deeper into it. I’ve been attending the TLM regularly for about two years now - and wouldn’t trade it for the world. Make no mistake - I loved the mass before, but I find it a much more intimate and enriching encounter with Our Lord in the extraordinary form.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[mgy100]

I would like to ask people if they think the laity at a TLM should respond with the server or keep quiet.

Personally, I don’t see why we shouldn’t as it makes us more involved.

I can see this at a low mass especially. Liturgica in Greek, Liturgy means a work of the people, where everyone is involved in the communal prayer. Liturgy is a communal prayer, the greatest prayer. People should respond aloud. Private prayer/devotions are to be done, well, in private. When we are with the community, we are to all pray as one and be active. It is Liturgical Theology 101.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

I can see this at a low mass especially. Liturgica in Greek, Liturgy means a work of the people, where everyone is involved in the communal prayer. Liturgy is a communal prayer, the greatest prayer. People should respond aloud. Private prayer/devotions are to be done, well, in private. When we are with the community, we are to all pray as one and be active. It is Liturgical Theology 101.

“Work of the people” has actually been a horribly unfortunate translation of liturgy as it has given rise to so many misguided ideas on active participation. A far more accurate translation would be “public work,” which if you think about it is not the same thing as work by the people. Just think about what the department of public works accomplishes in the city. How much of that do you take part in? That’s not an argument to say that liturgy is meant to convey something that is done entire for us and not *by *us, but the better translation does give some balancing perspective. It is a work of the community, but that need not mean that it is something requiring the immediate agency of every member of the community.

 

[mgy100]

“Work of the people” has actually been a horribly unfortunate translation of liturgy as it has given rise to so many misguided ideas on active participation. A far more accurate translation would be “public work,” which if you think about it is not the same thing as work by the people. Just think about what the department of public works accomplishes in the city. How much of that do you take part in? That’s not an argument to say that liturgy is meant to convey something that is done entire for us and not *by *us, but the better translation does give some balancing perspective. It is a work of the community, but that need not mean that it is something requiring the immediate agency of every member of the community.

I didn’t condone anything negative. I was merely stating that the people should be actively involved, correctively involved.
Liturgy is the community of the faithful praying as one.
This includes responses for the people. Don’t worry I’m not advocating Clown masses or children praying the canon.
I’m just saying that the people responding is a positive.

 

[Silver_Thread]

So many speak of dialogue with the experience of the Novus Ordo. If the take the words of VII documents about participation, it called for “actual” not active participation. There’s a difference if you are aware of the situation prior to VII. There was little participation because the people did not have the latin translation before them. In our community, we just couldn’t afford them or they weren’t available or the Pastor didn’t think we needed them. There was no catachesis on the Mass. Pray, Pay and Obey. If we were given the translations then we could have “actually” participated by joining with the Priest in praying the words of the Mass. We have that today in the TLM .When I got my first Missal, I was deeply saddened to realize what I had missed out on all those years. I enjoy the daily Low Mass with no dialogue and I find the High Mass the highlight of my week and do occassionally join in with the Choir.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

I didn’t condone anything negative. I was merely stating that the people should be actively involved, correctively involved.
Liturgy is the community of the faithful praying as one.
This includes responses for the people. Don’t worry I’m not advocating Clown masses or children praying the canon.
I’m just saying that the people responding is a positive.

I wasn’t trying to cast aspersions on your person - I knew from experience that you weren’t pushing bad liturgy - merely trying to counteract the translation you offered, as I think the translation has born rather bad fruit. If I had a dollar for every weirdo I’ve heard raving about how we can better “be Church” with a liturgy that is the “work of the people,” I might be able to afford the therapy those ravings have necessitated.

 

[joelacour]

I did not respond to the poll either. I think most people respond silently. I don’t particularly like the Dialogue Mass, but that does not exclude the congregation from silent participation. I guess as a former altar boy I don’t like somebody intruding on my turf,

I silently (or inaudibly) pray the altar boy’s responses and join (again privately) in the great prayers (Gloria, Creed, Our Father, Last Gospel). Strangley, when I attend an OF Mass, I now silently pray the Confetior before communion. Wierd, huh?