Dialogue with a protestant pastor (need help)

[catholicscot]

The Church is merely God’s agent for believers’ growth and maturity.

ISTM that this argument proceeds from the same kind of mindset that suggests that there was nothing special about the BVM she was just this Jewish girl who’s womb God borrowed for a few months. Indeed, since our Lady is the perfect model for the Church people who undervalue the one nearly always undervalue the other too. As, however, our Lady was and is central to God’s plan of salvation for us so to is the Catholic Church.

The Church is an agent in the same sense that the burning bush was an agent to Moses. That is God could have dispensed with it but He didn’t. We can all play the game of saying that God has so much power that He could do something different if He chose but if He doesn’t choose then out task is to accept His will. If God wanted to dispense with any Church at all then He could just save every individual human individually by infusing all the necessary knowledge and other elements required for salvation directly into each person. If you argue that One Church is not necessary then you are on shaky ground for arguing that any Church is necessary. Indeed even the Bible isn’t necessary since all we would need to do is wait for God to do His stuff.

God, though, is consistent. As we see from the Old Testament He does not simply want to have Godly people in the world He wants to have a People of God. Israel too is a model of the Church in this sense, He wants to transform people such that they are members not only of Him but of each other too. He could have chosen Abraham and His brothers to found a multitude of monotheist tribes who believed more or less the same thing but disliked each other and quarelled interminably. He didn’t. He chose Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and separated them from the world and established a Covenant relationship with them unique in all the world. Despite the unfaithfulness and at times rebellion of this one People of God He remained faithful to them and willed that apart from them salvation would not enter the world (Salvation is of the Jews John 4:22). The OT shows the shadows and types of the New Covenant and the new People of God. The Church is the New Israel and as the Old Israel was one people and at its most perfect when unified under the leadership of Moses and subsequently David (both partial types of Christ, Prophet, Priest and King) then so to the New Israel is at its most perfect when unified under Christ as head.

Nor is it sufficient to say that the Church merely serves the purpose of helping believers into growth and maturity as if without it they would be little immature believers but still pretty much ok. The Old Israel were guardians of the Ark of the Covenant in which the Glory of God dwellt directly and in a special way. They possesed too the Law of Moses a singular set of doctrines which pointed the way to holiness in a way superior to anything else in the world (although still insufficient until fulfilled in Christ) Only Israel had the presence of God in their midst in word and Spirit whatever lights of truth were feebly known to the rest of the world. So it is with the New Israel. In our Tabernacles and through our sacraments God Himself is present with power. In our doctrines is contained without error the singular truth that is necessary for salvation.

There are an infinite number of ways in which God could choose to act but He has for His own good purposes chosen one, and it is a good one. It is our task and our great joy to accept His choice and to coooperate with Him in the great task of the redemption of the world and the saving of souls through the vehicle He has provided for this purpose, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

 

[JRKH]

Ok so as promised ill update you with our conversation. At first I asked him if he himself was once catholic since his initial response seemed to address converting in general, and confirmed he was once Catholic. Then I made a response using some of your suggestions and also my own (name removed by moderator)ut and here’s how he responded. please leave any feed back and suggestions.

Thanks for the update.
His reply runs to the very common themes and indicates that he never truly realized what he had in the Catholic church. That being the case, I think it fair to say that he is indeed closer to Jesus now than he was before.
So - on to his reply.

"I realize that you are very Catholic and you thought the catholic is the only true church in God’s kingdom. This is OK and I respect your opinion.
This is good since he remains a part of the Catholic Church through his trinitarian baptism.

But if you will ready your Vatican II, you will be amazed to read that Jesus is our salvation, never the church.

Wonderful. He has just proven that the Catholic Church believes the same thing he does. So then - why did he leave?

As Christ as the Head of the Church, remember that there are many parts of the body. He is praying not for uniformity but unity, “diversity in unity”. Every churches has its unique calling and functions, the same way each part of the body has its own. You don’t expect ears to become nose, do you?

This is fine until you start to look into the details. “diversity in unity” might make a nice bumper sticker but it is not what is taught in NT Scripture. Here are some quotes on the type of unity the Holy Spirit calls for:
John 17:20-21
20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Rom 15:5-6
5 May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus, 6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 1:10
I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

2 Cor 13:11
Finally, brothers, rejoice. Aim for restoration, comfort one another, agree with one another, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.

Php 1:27
Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel,

1 Pet 3:8
Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.
Can he honestly say that the plethora of protestant and non-denominational communities fulfill the prayer of Christ or the exhortations of the evangelists?

I’ve had many conversations with protestants on this subject and the more you delve into it the more “unbiblical” the protestant outlook becomes.

The early Church, when it had issues, came together in council to resolve the matter (Acts 15). This was done in accord with the instructions of Jesus in Mt 18:15-18.
The Catholic Church has continued to come together in council - large and small, universal and regional - as per Scripture, to resolve issues and to seek the unity called for in Scripture.

So ask your friend to name the councils of the early reformers…you know, the ones where Calvin and Luther and Zwingli and the other Sola Scriptura types, got together (per Scripture) and resolved the differences between them?
Where are the protestant councils designed to achieve this new style of unity???

cont…

 

[JRKH]

Like a mountain peak experience, all of us climbing our way up only to meet each other at the top…with only one catch…the mountain is located on the foundation of Jesus Christ Himself. Let us not all put the cart before the horse… let me explain.

I don’t really see anything here to disagree with.

I am not separating the Head from the Body as I am only focusing you on the real Source of salvation. The Church is merely God’s agent for believers’ growth and maturity.

A perfectly Catholic way to look at it.

Ekklesia is not a building or an individual Christian claiming that he is the church but “people separated out of the world” to represent Him in ways so that others will be drawn to Him. It is a gathering (as you rightly said, community) that come together in submission to Christ’s Lordship.

Agreed - again - very Catholic.

But the church is never biblically created to be the Source of salvation, only Jesus…we only point and direct people to Him.

If this is true - then how could Jesus say to his disciples to “listen to the Church” on pain of being expelled from the community? (Mt 18:17) How could he say that the Church has the authority to bind and loose whatever?
We do not deny that Jesus is the source of salvation. As he himself points out…this is what Vatican II states.
However - he is missing the point of the Church as Christ guided authority - something that is quite biblical.
Does he realize that Jesus uses the word “church (ekklesia)” just twice in the Gospels? both times in Matthew and both times it is associated with the granting of authority - to bind and loose whatever.

And I am not a prodigal… who used to be a drug addict, alcoholic, womanizer…(what can you expect from a son of night club owner whose businesses were night clubs until everyone in the family met Jesus?). Now tell me, who changed and transformed our ways and experienced true peace and joy in God? Satan?..nah… Remember in the Bible, the prodigal messed up his life so badly. Did I mess up my life? Absolutely no! All others could testify what and how much Jesus has done for us. This is reality… this is the truth… this is God. Let us not all put God in our little box of religion and understanding because God is greater than all. Why not tell me your own story of transformation? Remember again what I said, many people are beholden to their religion and church practices & dogmas that when the real Jesus passes by, they wouldn’t even recognize Him. Ask this to the disciples who were rowing the boat to safety… Stay focused on Jesus! And this Jesus will the power supply that gets the church truly energized and empowered. Let’s not put the cart before the horse…

Again there is little here to dispute. I am most gratified that the Holy Spirit has worked such wonders in his life. Yet we can offer similar testimony from those in the Catholic church as well.
I mean - - He did not need to leave the Catholic Church to find this.

There really isn’t a whole lot more to say. He obviously has a very good spiritual life. However, he is also laboring under a very wrong understanding of “church” or “ekklesia” as called for in Scripture.

To the above quotes on unity we can add Mt 16:15-20 along with Mt 18:15-18 and Acts 15 as both granting authority and also authority in action. All of these things point to a profound unity with visible and universal teaching authority.
Ask him to show you, from scripture, the equally compelling biblical evidence to his view. The locally independent, bible only, “diversity in unity” view where different church groups can teach differing and even contradictory things from Scripture.

I’ve yet to have one take up that challenge.

Peace
James

 

[johnnyc176]

Jesus and His Church, the Catholic Church, are One and the Same.

It is an absurd dichotomy to love Christ without the Church; to listen to Christ, but not the Church; to be with Christ at the margins of the Church,” he said. “One cannot do this. It is an absurd dichotomy. Pope Francis

 

[MPat]

"I realize that you are very Catholic and you thought the catholic is the only true church in God’s kingdom. This is OK and I respect your opinion. But if you will ready your Vatican II, you will be amazed to read that Jesus is our salvation, never the church. As Christ as the Head of the Church, remember that there are many parts of the body. He is praying not for uniformity but unity, “diversity in unity”. Every churches has its unique calling and functions, the same way each part of the body has its own. You don’t expect ears to become nose, do you? Like a mountain peak experience, all of us climbing our way up only to meet each other at the top…with only one catch…the mountain is located on the foundation of Jesus Christ Himself. Let us not all put the cart before the horse… let me explain.

That would be very orthodox, if “church” was replaced with “vocation”, “rite”, “religious order”, “parish”… It might be a good idea to show him the diversity in the Catholic Church: for example, Jesuits are not exact copies of Franciscans and Roman rite Catholics are not exact copies of Ukrainian Catholics. Or maybe you could ask him how he is going to deal with differences in doctrine.

I am not separating the Head from the Body as I am only focusing you on the real Source of salvation. The Church is merely God’s agent for believers’ growth and maturity. Ekklesia is not a building or an individual Christian claiming that he is the church but “people separated out of the world” to represent Him in ways so that others will be drawn to Him. It is a gathering (as you rightly said, community) that come together in submission to Christ’s Lordship.

And do Catholics claim that the Church is just a building or a single man…? No…? Then why even talk about that?

But the church is never biblically created to be the Source of slavation, only Jesus…we only point and direct people to Him. (John 14:6, John 3:16). And I am not a prodigal… who used to be a drug addict, alcoholic, womanizer…(what can you expect from a son of night club owner whose businesses were night clubs until everyone in the family met Jesus?). Now tell me, who changed and transformed our ways and experienced true peace and joy in God? Satan?..nah… Remember in the Bible, the prodigal messed up his life so badly. Did I mess up my life? Absolutely no! All others could testify what and how much Jesus has done for us.

So, the reasoning seems to go like this: he was a bad Catholic, he became a better Protestant, therefore, he should not become a Catholic. But does this conclusion follow from the premises? It looks like we can even afford to agree that overall his conversion was an improvement. But even in that case: does it mean that becoming a Catholic once again wouldn’t be a further improvement…? That would be one of the main questions - and he doesn’t seem to address it that much…

 

[johnnyc176]

So, the reasoning seems to go like this: he was a bad Catholic, he became a better Protestant, therefore, he should not become a Catholic.

I believe most Catholics who leave the Church do so not because they don’t know Jesus but because they have a problem with a teaching doctrine of the Church and so in order to justify that they need to separate Jesus from His Church, the Catholic Church. Hence…protestant.

 

[JRKH]

That would be very orthodox, if “church” was replaced with “vocation”, “rite”, “religious order”, “parish”… It might be a good idea to show him the diversity in the Catholic Church: for example, Jesuits are not exact copies of Franciscans and Roman rite Catholics are not exact copies of Ukrainian Catholics. Or maybe you could ask him how he is going to deal with differences in doctrine.

And do Catholics claim that the Church is just a building or a single man…? No…? Then why even talk about that?

So, the reasoning seems to go like this: he was a bad Catholic, he became a better Protestant, therefore, he should not become a Catholic. But does this conclusion follow from the premises? It looks like we can even afford to agree that overall his conversion was an improvement. But even in that case: does it mean that becoming a Catholic once again wouldn’t be a further improvement…? That would be one of the main questions - and he doesn’t seem to address it that much…

Beautifully said.

You’ve hit the nail on the head. He doesn’t really address the main question which is why he left the practice of Catholicism. Surely nothing in Catholicism prevents one from growing closer to Jesus.

Peace
James

 

[Philthy]

The pastor’s problem, like many non-Catholics, is that they fail to recognize the full significance of the Incarnation. They love Jesus as a spiritual being but have only a historical appreciation of his humanity. Big mistake! In becoming human Christ demonstrated that humanity and divinity were never meant to be separate and through his passion, death and resurrection he redeemed humanity. Christ remains fully human and fully divine. His Spirit is alive and at work through creation - ie each one of us. Not only that, but He established designated human channels to experience his grace: he gave Peter the keys of authority for his Church, he 'breathed" the gift of the holy spirit to the Apostles in order to forgive sins; he sent His Spirit to be with the Apostles so that “whoever hears you hears me”, they - and others - physically wrote Scripture and the visible Church recognized such writings and revealed them to us etc, etc. In each of these cases, his divinity is made present and effected through a human being. The “one, holy, catholic and apostolic” Church is the all encompassing name given to the hierarchy of individuals visibly established, empowered and appointed by Christ to carry on his mission of rescuing lost sheep throughout time. It, like him, is human and divine…and I contend that the well-intentioned pastor fails to comprehend the full significance of that fact.

Blessings!

 

[Shaolen]

Thanks for you help. I’ll let you know as soon as he replies

 

[Shaolen]

Ok I responded with some of your ideas and here’s what he said

"Peace be with you too, my friend.

When we look on our point of convergence, we could all agree that Jesus is the Son of God who came in the flesh to save us and transform us. Our brotherhood REGARDLESS of where we came from is traced from our connection to Jesus unless your view of Jesus is different such as the views of the cultic groups such Jehova’s, mormon, etc. Of course, we believe in Trinity, in the incarnation, in the virgin birth, etc. But our points of divergence could be more on the expressions of our faith based on the differences and uniqueness of “personalities and identities”, the same way as members of a certain family with different personalities. Otherwise, please educate me of the divergence…and you will discover that it is more of the periphery than the core itself…unless our understanding of the periphery and core are different.

The reason I “left” the catholic church has been given to you in my first email (are you listening?)… when I simply followed my Great Shepherd and appointed another sheep pen to make me strong and healthy. I hope you could respect me and others in having that reason as much as I am respecting yours. Nobody has stolen us from your sheep pen because every sheep belongs to the Great Shepherd…He makes the decision, doesn’t He? Can’t we just respect and honor that people apart from and outside your church are changing, being healed, and having joy and peace in their lives that they never had before. Otherwise, you and your church might be guilty of persecuting and excommunicating the blind man whose eyes had been healed by Jesus (John 9). Instead of rejoicing with him, they were all arguing of the rightness of what they believed, not what the positive thing that God has done. When people left your church, they are all branded as prodigals…without investigating further that their lives have been truly blessed and transformed… a different profile from what Jesus has profiled as a prodigal in the Bible. I think, you do have to be very honest enough to say that I and others who left your church are branded as prodigals, don’t you? You are willing to die for the rightness of your religion but has sorely missed out on the real Jesus. Have you been guilty in creating Jesus in your own image? Who is really Jesus to you? Just a mere mental exercise…or the dogmas and practices over Jesus?

Peace be with you again… Please tell me more about what Jesus has done for you, not what the church has done for you…"

 

[JRKH]

Ok I responded with some of your ideas and here’s what he said

He has provided a very excellent reply. I doubt that you can offer him any more than you have. He is obviously very content where he is and is probably best left there for now. God will continue to work in his life and perhaps bring him back home.

Of course having said that - I think that there ARE some things here that can be commented on - although as I say - I doubt if it will have much effect.

When we look on our point of convergence, we could all agree that Jesus is the Son of God who came in the flesh to save us and transform us.

Agreed.

Our brotherhood REGARDLESS of where we came from is traced from our connection to Jesus unless your view of Jesus is different such as the views of the cultic groups such Jehova’s, mormon, etc.

Well - the question could be asked - how does he know that these are “cultic groups”? What authority allows him to say that his understanding of Scripture or his relationship with Christ is superior or more correct than these others?

Of course, we believe in Trinity, in the incarnation, in the virgin birth, etc. But our points of divergence could be more on the expressions of our faith based on the differences and uniqueness of “personalities and identities”, the same way as members of a certain family with different personalities.

Indeed if the issues were only in the expression of the faith - I would wholeheartedly agree with this.

Otherwise, please educate me of the divergence…and you will discover that it is more of the periphery than the core itself…unless our understanding of the periphery and core are different.

Here you have hit the crux of the matter. There can be little doubt that there are differing views on what constitutes “core” and “periphery”.
The protestant cry is that “we agree on the essentials” - but just what are those essentials? Different groups will have different lists. So how do we tell what is “core”.

I think we can agree that anything that touches upon ones salvation needs to be thought of as “core”. Yet even in this, there is division and contradiction among protestant communions.
Can one read John 6 and think that this is a peripheral issue - one that there can be disagreement on? Yet there IS disagreement among the protestant communions over this.
Baptism is another matter that directly touches upon salvation - yet there is a wide range of teaching on the matter.

Yes - - Maybe we disagree on what constitutes core and periphery. And how can we have the kind of unity called for in Scriptures when such disagreement exists among sincere believers?

The reason I “left” the catholic church has been given to you in my first email (are you listening?)… when I simply followed my Great Shepherd and appointed another sheep pen to make me strong and healthy. I hope you could respect me and others in having that reason as much as I am respecting yours.

Yes I can respect that.

Nobody has stolen us from your sheep pen because every sheep belongs to the Great Shepherd…He makes the decision, doesn’t He? Can’t we just respect and honor that people apart from and outside your church are changing, being healed, and having joy and peace in their lives that they never had before.

Yes we can respect each other…and yet this does not mean that we don’t try to ask questions and seek after deeper truths.
Also - we must remember that not all who cry “Lord Lord” will enter the kingdom. So sincere Christians can legitimately worry that a brother has chosen a wrong path or perhaps missed something that could be of benefit to them.

Otherwise, you and your church might be guilty of persecuting and excommunicating the blind man whose eyes had been healed by Jesus (John 9). Instead of rejoicing with him, they were all arguing of the rightness of what they believed, not what the positive thing that God has done. When people left your church, they are all branded as prodigals…without investigating further that their lives have been truly blessed and transformed… a different profile from what Jesus has profiled as a prodigal in the Bible. I think, you do have to be very honest enough to say that I and others who left your church are branded as prodigals, don’t you?

I apologize if the prodigal has left a bad taste. That is just how we look at it. And a prodigal doesn’t have to exactly fit the profile of the parable. A prodigal is simply one that has gone off.

(cont)

 

[JRKH]

You are willing to die for the rightness of your religion but has sorely missed out on the real Jesus. Have you been guilty in creating Jesus in your own image? Who is really Jesus to you? Just a mere mental exercise…or the dogmas and practices over Jesus?
Peace be with you again… Please tell me more about what Jesus has done for you, not what the church has done for you…"

It’s difficult to separate what Christ has done for me and what the Church has done - since they are so interconnected.
But I will offer this.
Christ stuck with me through some horrible times in my life when I was totally ignoring him.
He gently brought me home to the Church.
He sustained me - even spoke to me directly in encouragement - during my wife’s long illness.
He continues to sustain me now that she has gone home to Him.
He has forgiven me some pretty horrific sins and has afforded me opportunities to make amends.
He has given me a peace and a strength that I did not know before…and without which I would never have been able to care for His beautiful daughter - who was my wife.
And perhaps most important of all -
He feeds me weekly with His very own body and blood…not a symbol but the real thing. An event so profound that it can bring me to tears.
With all that He has given me - - and especially the most Holy Eucharist - - I could never go to another “sheep-pen” for I know that within the Catholic Church the Lord can put me wherever he needs me to be to grow stronger.

Shaolen,
Seems that I got rather personal there - don’t know that there is a lot you can use…but maybe there is…

Peace
James

 

[fred_conty]

MPat in #3 post said,

That might mean that his position is mostly based on feelings and not on actual reasoning. Thus, while finding contradictions is likely to be easy, getting him to notice them and care about them might be harder…

That’s not to say he hasn’t given his reasons, but it sounds more like what MPat described.

 

[Shaolen]

It’s difficult to separate what Christ has done for me and what the Church has done - since they are so interconnected.
But I will offer this.
Christ stuck with me through some horrible times in my life when I was totally ignoring him.
He gently brought me home to the Church.
He sustained me - even spoke to me directly in encouragement - during my wife’s long illness.
He continues to sustain me now that she has gone home to Him.
He has forgiven me some pretty horrific sins and has afforded me opportunities to make amends.
He has given me a peace and a strength that I did not know before…and without which I would never have been able to care for His beautiful daughter - who was my wife.
And perhaps most important of all -
He feeds me weekly with His very own body and blood…not a symbol but the real thing. An event so profound that it can bring me to tears.
With all that He has given me - - and especially the most Holy Eucharist - - I could never go to another “sheep-pen” for I know that within the Catholic Church the Lord can put me wherever he needs me to be to grow stronger.

Shaolen,
Seems that I got rather personal there - don’t know that there is a lot you can use…but maybe there is…

Peace
James

I thank you so much for sharing that! Not sure if I would have anything that could quite match that but ill do my best. Thank you for all your help.

 

[johnnyc176]

Ok I responded with some of your ideas

Here are some very good talks that may help you in any future discussions…

theonetruefaith.tv/index.php?nav=03&content=20

Quite a few that deal with the Church.

 

[Shaolen]

So here’s the latest from him. I feel like I should’ve mentioned since he accused us of making Jesus in our image yet its he who is doing so more by not following all that Jesus asked of us. What do you guys think? It also sounds like he just wants to withdraw from the conversation now.

"I’m so happy for you, brother. Keep growing in Him more and more. Anyway, I didn’t “protest” against any religion including yours to be labeled as “Protestant”. The fight of old is not my fight and I am not bound historically to wage war and carry on this fight to my generation. "Forget the former things, do not dwell in the past. See, I am doing a new thing, have you not perceived it (Isaiah 43:18-19). I am simply who I am by the grace of God. I have discovered Christ apart from a church and you discovered Christ within your church. My story and your story are both unique and special… but each story comes from His Story. Could you accept it the way it was? I accepted yours. "

 

[Kay_Cee]

So here’s the latest from him. I feel like I should’ve mentioned since he accused us of making Jesus in our image yet its he who is doing so more by not following all that Jesus asked of us. What do you guys think? It also sounds like he just wants to withdraw from the conversation now.

"I’m so happy for you, brother. Keep growing in Him more and more. Anyway, I didn’t “protest” against any religion including yours to be labeled as “Protestant”. The fight of old is not my fight and I am not bound historically to wage war and carry on this fight to my generation. "Forget the former things, do not dwell in the past. See, I am doing a new thing, have you not perceived it (Isaiah 43:18-19). I am simply who I am by the grace of God. I have discovered Christ apart from a church and you discovered Christ within your church. My story and your story are both unique and special… but each story comes from His Story. Could you accept it the way it was? I accepted yours. "

I would hope he is more interested in pursuing truth than in just “accepting stories.”

 

[gmanlq]

Hi I asked a protestant (more specifically a “non-denominational” Filipino) church pastor why he left the Catholic church. He answered me from what I gathered is that he truly accepted Christ and now his focus is on Christ and not the church. I need a little help with how to reply. Any ideas? I’ve placed his quote below.

"First of all, thank you so much for your question. The moment a person truly receives the Lord in his life and surrenders himself to Him by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9), something wonderful would have happened. There would be a spiritual shift from focus on the sheep-pen to the Great Shepherd. Remember, that the One crucified on the cross is neither the church nor any human personality, but Christ Himself. No churches could ever say that “come to our church and you will be saved”. (John 14:6; Acts 4:12) Obviously, Jesus is the only Source of salvation. With the salvation we receive, Jesus becomes greater than the church. That’s why He said in the Gospel of John, the sheep listen to His voice. (Honestly, some people know more about the church than Jesus Himself that when He finally passes by, He would be unrecognizable) Church has its important place, of course, she can be an instrument for Christ’s salvation and a nurturing place after salvation, but is never the Source such as an appliance is plugged into the power source.

Customarily, the shepherd in old times brings out the sheep one by one and check on the condition. Once he discovers the condition, he assigns a sheep pen to where you could become healthier and stronger and will not bring you back to your former sheep pen for fear that the sheep pen the sheep came from is no longer suitable for its health. Apply this truth in our spiritual life. The Great Shepherd makes the decision to which sheep pen each of us is assigned based on the spiritual condition we are all in. His goal is to make us all spiritually healthy, strong, growing, and fulfilled in life.

So to answer your question “why people leave?”, we don’t leave because of our own accord. No sheep-pen owns the sheep, the Great Shepherd is. It would be a divine calling based on the relationship established between the two of you. So this is very personal and special and is never a case of force and brainwashing. He calls you out and you are simply responding to the call. Nothing personal…but simply a spiritual hunger that causes you to follow Him wherever He leads us. This is your spiritual decision, not anyone else. Your spiritual needs are met, your hunger satisfied, and your thirst quenched in the sheep-pen that Jesus has led you."

I would say this to your friend. We should love what Christ loved and hate what Christ hated. He loved God the Father and his mother, the Virgin Mary. He loved people. He hated evil, Satan, lukewarm hearts, and hypocrites. He loved the Holy Spirit and he loved the Church he founded upon Peter. He loved the sacraments so much so that he taught them to the apostles. He commanded them to go out and teach all these things to the entire world. What other church was around at the time of the apostles that tried to teach loving what Christ loved and hating what Christ hated? There is but one answer and that is the Catholic Church.

The Jewish faith lost all credibility when Jesus died on the cross and the temple curtain was torn in two and the seat of Moses broken. Further, the Jewish temple was destroyed a few decades later and Jesus made it quite clear that he was making a new covenant to replace the old one at the last supper. What church was around during the apostolic times that followed this new covenant from Jesus? The only option is the Catholic Church. It is in fact the only church that claims to teach the truth and its history proves it. For example, the Catholic Church still teaches that contraception, abortion, and gay marriage are morally wrong. These teachings can be found in the 1st century and beyond. It’s always taught that and always will. The large majority of other Christian denominations have failed in one or more of just these three areas alone to consistently reflect the truth that they are ALL morally wrong. That is how I would respond.

 

[JRKH]

So here’s the latest from him. I feel like I should’ve mentioned since he accused us of making Jesus in our image yet its he who is doing so more by not following all that Jesus asked of us. What do you guys think? It also sounds like he just wants to withdraw from the conversation now.

"I’m so happy for you, brother. Keep growing in Him more and more. Anyway, I didn’t “protest” against any religion including yours to be labeled as “Protestant”. The fight of old is not my fight and I am not bound historically to wage war and carry on this fight to my generation. "Forget the former things, do not dwell in the past. See, I am doing a new thing, have you not perceived it (Isaiah 43:18-19). I am simply who I am by the grace of God. I have discovered Christ apart from a church and you discovered Christ within your church. My story and your story are both unique and special… but each story comes from His Story. Could you accept it the way it was? I accepted yours. "

Not knowing the whole of the conversation - what you say to him etc. It appears that he may be feeling somewhat “attacked”. It also appears that he is seeking common ground and agreement. He wants you to accept him as a brother in Christ.
Do you?

Some of what he says has merit…Do you acknowledge this?
His desire seems to be to want to simply share the joy of Christ.
Can you do this with him?

Sometimes the best evangelization that we can do is to simply show how happy and fulfilled we are in the Church. Sort of like what he is doing in some of his posts.

If you want this person to be your friend and to be able to discuss these things further over time, then recognize that there are times when the two of you need to simply bask in the light of the Lord together.

Just some thoughts.

Peace
James

 

[Shaolen]

Not knowing the whole of the conversation - what you say to him etc. It appears that he may be feeling somewhat “attacked”. It also appears that he is seeking common ground and agreement. He wants you to accept him as a brother in Christ.
Do you?

Some of what he says has merit…Do you acknowledge this?
His desire seems to be to want to simply share the joy of Christ.
Can you do this with him?

Sometimes the best evangelization that we can do is to simply show how happy and fulfilled we are in the Church. Sort of like what he is doing in some of his posts.

If you want this person to be your friend and to be able to discuss these things further over time, then recognize that there are times when the two of you need to simply bask in the light of the Lord together.

Just some thoughts.

Peace
James

very good insight thank you.