Diane Sawyer, ABC, & "Pope Joan"

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Yeah, I don’t think Diane like the Church much. But I think this was really just another attempt to justify female priests, not so much an attack.

The story of the popess is important in occult theory. People like Crowley and Blavatsky believed this story.
 
tiny'(name removed by moderator)my:
Yeah, I don’t think Diane like the Church much. But I think this was really just another attempt to justify female priests, not so much an attack.
It’s actually the same thing. They attack us because we oppose abortion, don’t have female priests, and don’t sanctify gay marriages.
We have nothing against Catholics. We just want them to abandon their beliefs and adopt ours.
Diocletian couldn’t have said it better.
tiny'(name removed by moderator)my:
The story of the popess is important in occult theory. People like Crowley and Blavatsky believed this story.
Which tells us something about the mentality of the other people who believe it.
 
I watched it for a minute before switching back to the Stars game. I think Diane Sawyer sold her boss on this bogus story so she could travel. Hehehe. Sorry for the sarcasm but the “mainstream” media wear me out.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!:blessyou:
 
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Fidelis:
They took evident glee in mocking the traditions and teachings of the Church and belittling and smirking at the Vatican responses to their childish inquiries.

On the ABC site they had a preview clip of the program where they threw out all these juicy tid-bits. When the news anchor asked the “reporter” what the Vatican response was to some of these questions, she rolled her eyes back so far in her head that I thought they’d pop out. Her sarcastic and cynical tone was typical of the program (or as much as I could stand to watch). The whole tone of the show was “Well, of course there is not enough evidence to conclusively say there was or was not a “Pope Joan” but since the Catholic Church is so secretive and hopelessly backward and women-hating, it probably is true. And even if it isn’t, aren’t these Catholics and their traditions so silly?”

In other words, same old same old by the Church-hating MSM.
You forgot their other accusation to cover their weak reporting:
the reason there is poor documentation is that the mean Catholic Church destroyed it all.

Phil
 
My favorite part had to do with the potty chair.

So this author says that there was a custom to have someone feel up thru the hole in the chair to ascertain that the pope was a man…:rolleyes:

Did anyone notice that at the end, they show cartoons of this “rite” that were created and circulated by Protestants?

Put 2 and 2 together!

😛
 
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FrankR:
ABC must have run out of things to do, usually they don’t start attacking the church until right around Easter.

Shame on ABC for choosing to air programming like this.
I agree. I’ve been ABC-o-phobe for years.
 
Daughter inlaw to be just walked into the room and asked me if I had ever heard of pope Joan??? :banghead:
As I spun around in my chair
(Husbands Response: OHHH Great! now you’ve done it, she’s going to go on about this for hours)
Where do they get this stuff? And Why?

Oh yeh, Suffered through some history programs myself. :eek:
Who are these guy’s they get that appear to be priest but don’t teach anything like the church? :confused:
I was wondering if the history channel shows are sponsered by certain religious groups and if that’s why they are so biased or what?

Put on your apologetic gloves & hats on cuz here we go again :rolleyes:

MM
 
I posted earlier while I was only a few minutes into the show. Now that I’ve seen the whole thing, I have to say it just struck me as sensationalistic (Edited). And as for Diane, blech! Give me a break. She’s so mocking of everything. I think I may have to spare myself from such shows in the future. Being new to Catholicism (RCIA) I am getting some of my first tastes of bias toward the Church and people trying to make it look bad.

Amie
 
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BeluvdLily:
. . . .it just struck me as sensationalistic (Edited).
I decribe these ABC shows as sensationalistic (Edited) too.
And as for Diane, blech!
Diane lost all credibility w/ me 15 or 20 years ago when she and ABC “went after” a NC based grocery chain about selling bad meat. ABC claimed that the stores rinsed spoiled meat in bleach.

While picketing the local ABC affilliate, one of the store’s employees carried a sign that read “We save our bleach for Diane’s roots!!”
 
I think the Catholic League response bears posting here for reference:
December 29, 2005
ABC-TV DISCOVERS “POPE JOAN”
Tonight, ABC’s “Primetime” will air a segment, “On the Trail of Pope Joan,” that raises questions about the possible existence of Pope Joan. Catholic League president Bill Donohue weighed in today:
“ABC has been busy questioning the divinity of Jesus for years, what with its infamous ‘Search for Jesus’ specials. In May of this year, it went back to the well again with a ‘20/20’ episode questioning the resurrection of Jesus. Correspondent Elizabeth Vargas told viewers: ‘Whether the resurrection proclaimed by the disciples was physical, metaphysical, or simply a hallucination—the dreams of grieving followers,’ is not known. In other words, Christians have likely been duped. And tonight we learn that we’ve been duped again—a woman pope ruled in the ninth century.
“Diane Sawyer not only wants us to believe in Pope Joan, she takes us to exact street where she processed. ‘Fact or Fiction’ she exclaims! Indeed, Sawyer tells us that Pope Joan gave birth while processing. Pope Joan, she says, dressed in male garb, but this is not an historical anomaly: Sawyer shows us a picture of a woman dressed as a soldier in the U.S. Civil War and then proclaims, ‘Which brings us back to Joan.’ But of course. Another segue could have been little girls dressed up as GI Joe on Halloween, but that might have unsettled the sure-mouthed Sawyer.
“Sawyer does not interview either Paul Johnson, the world renowned historian and author of ‘The Papacy,’ nor does she interview Eamon Duffy, the brilliant historian from Cambridge and author of the magisterial volume, ‘Saints and Sinners: A History of the Popes.’ Had she done so they would have laughed in her smug face. So who does she rely on? Donna Cross and Mary Malone. Cross wrote a novel about the mythical Pope Joan and has no standing among scholars. Malone is an ex-nun who lost her faith and hates the Catholic Church. ‘I can no longer pray,’ she said in 1996, ‘because of the language, and because it seemed so essential as the core of the tradition that God be male.’
“In other words, ABC’s gospel has no room for Jesus but plenty of room for Pope Joan. We could squeeze more truth from a used-car salesman than we could from these people.”
Cryin’ shame that the poor used car salemen get bashed, but it’s a point taken…

Their citations of valid scholars versus the ones that Sawyer used show some serious bias on ABC’s part (no surprise there right?) this may also be important in our refutations of that bunk.
Pax vobiscum,
 
I don’t know why I didn’t think to check New Advent before about this, but there’s a GREAT ARTICLE on this there that will make people who come off with this stuff look even dumber than they already do.

Popess Joan

VARIATIONS OF THE FABLE

The fable about a female pope, who afterwards bore the name of Johanna (Joan), is first noticed in the middle of the thirteenth century


PROOFS OF ITS MYTHICAL CHARACTER

The principal proofs of the entirely mythical character of the popess are:
  1. Not one contemporaneous historical source among the papal histories knows anything about her; also, no mention is made of her until the middle of the thirteenth century. Now it is incredible that the appearance of a “popess”, if it was an historical fact, would be noticed by none of the numerous historians from the tenth to the thirteenth century.
  2. In the history of the popes, there is no place where this legendary figure will fit in.
Between Leo IV and Benedict III, where Martinus Polonus places her, she cannot be inserted, because Leo IV died 17 July, 855, and immediately after his death Benedict III was elected by the clergy and people of Rome; but owing to the setting up of an antipope, in the person of the deposed Cardinal Anastasius, he was not consecrated until 29 September. Coins exist which bear both the image of Benedict III and of Emperor Lothair, who died 28 September, 855; therefore Benedict must have been recognized as pope before the last-mentioned date. On 7 October, 855, Benedict III issued a charter for the Abbey of Corvey. Hincmar, Archbishop of Reims, informed Nicholas I that a messenger whom he had sent to Leo IV learned on his way of the death of this pope, and therefore handed his petition to Benedict III, who decided it (Hincmar, ep. xl in P.L., CXXXVI, 85). All these witnesses prove the correctness of the dates given in the lives of Leo IV and Benedict III, and there was no interregnum between these two popes, so that at this place there is no room for the alleged popess.

Further, is is even less probable that a popess could be inserted in the list of popes about 1100, between Victor III (1087) and Urban II (1088-99) or Paschal II (1099-1110), as is suggested by the chronicle of Jean de Mailly.

Be sure to read this and you can send it to those folks who might not know the truth.
Pax vobiscum,
 
Church Militant:
I don’t know why I didn’t think to check New Advent before about this, but there’s a GREAT ARTICLE on this there that will make people who come off with this stuff look even dumber than they already do.
Maybe you didn’t think of it because I linked it in the very first post! 😃
 
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Fidelis:
Maybe you didn’t think of it because I linked it in the very first post! 😃
And of course (rocket scientist that I am. :rolleyes: ) I missed that. :rotfl:

A friend just e-mailed me this from Patrick Madrid.

The Myth of Pope Joan
By Patrick Madrid

POPE FICTION # 19:

In the middle ages, there was a “Pope Joan,” a woman who hid her gender and rose through the ranks of the Church, became a cardinal and was elected pope. No one knew she was a woman until, during a papal procession through the streets of Rome, she went into labor and gave birth to a child. She and the baby were killed on the spot by the mob, enraged at her imposture.

A LOT OF THINGS are said about the alleged “Pope Joan.” Depending on who is telling the story, she was a courageous feminist, a clever opportunist, a brilliant scholar who couldn’t make it as a woman in a man’s world. She is said to have been a wise ruler and an astute theologian, though, oddly, no decree or theological teaching purporting to have come from her has made its way down to our day.

In any case, the fact is, there was no Pope Joan. She exists only as pure legend, but one that makes for a sexy story. And when it comes to sexy stories, you know Hollywood will try its hand at making a blockbuster out of this piece of pope fiction.

New Line Cinema (that’s right, the same good folks who produced The Last Temptation of Christ) has reportedly bought the movie rights to Pope Joan, the best-selling 1996 novel by Donna Woolfolk Cross. Her book is couched as an historical “novel” - embellishing on a grand scale the rather sparse details that have clung to the legend of a brilliant, plain girl who rises to the highest levels in Church service, culminating in her being elected pope by an unsuspecting college of cardinals.

The way the book is written and the way it’s being promoted support my concern that it will be seen by most of its historically ignorant readers, not as a novel, a fiction, but as a real biography of the one woman who “made it to the top.” When the movie comes out, this problem will certainly grow in proportions.

It’s important to remember that even if there had been a female impostor pope, this would just mean that an invalid election had taken place, nothing more. Other invalidly elected claimants to the papal office have come and gone over the centuries, and the fact that a woman made that list would simply mean that a woman made that list, She would not have been pope - no one invalidly elected would be. And nothing in the Church’s teachings about the papacy would be injured or disproved.

But in reality, the Pope Joan story is all sizzle and no steak. The basic outline of the main legend (actually, there have been several competing legends over the centuries) has it that in the ninth or tenth century, a plain but extraordinarily brilliant young woman contrived to enter the university disguised as a man. Her intellect outstripped her male classmates and she shot to the top rank of students. Talk of her prowess in law, science, rhetoric, philosophy and languages was widespread.

In another legend, popularized by several 13th century works such as the Chronicle of Martin Polonus, the Universal Chronicle of Metz and Wonders of the City of Rome, she traveled first to Greece with her boyfriend (why he wanted a girlfriend who disguised herself as a man is unknown), made a name for herself in the university there, then traveled to Rome.

Here all the legends converge into the main one that has come down to our day. Once in Rome, Joan managed to enter religious life (although no legend is able to say which order she entered), was ordained a priest and earned a high reputation as a notary in the papal court.

Eventually, she was noticed by the pope and made a cardinal. You can guess what happens next. She is eventually elected pope, takes the name John, and sets about skillfully ruling the Church, It’s at this point that the most dramatic scenes of the story unfold.

The legends vary as to how Joan’s gender and identity were discovered. One holds that she was granted a vision by God in which she was shown two options for her fate, being discovered and disgraced by the world or roasting in hell for her crime. She chose the former. Another version says she got pregnant by one of her curial advisors and somehow was able to maintain the charade until she gave birth to the baby.

At that point her secret was discovered and she was deposed as pope and sent to a convent to do penance for the rest of her life. According to this legend, the child she bore went on to became the bishop of Ostia, about 30 miles southwest of Rome, and when she died, he had her body buried there. Of course, no evidence exists to support this.

cont’d.
 
The main detail these legends have in common is that Joan was discovered because her hanky panky with a cardinal or secretary resulted in pregnancy, and the childbirth exposed her fraud. The main legend is the most gory on this point. In it, Pope Joan goes into labor while riding in her sede gestiatoria - the portable throne in which popes were carried - as her procession passed the Coliseum on its way from St, Peter’s Basilica to St. John Lateran Cathedral.

The procession halted, the baby was born, and the confused and angry onlookers killed Pope Joan and her baby on the spot. Most accounts say she was killed by stoning, another says she died in childbirth as the mob watching the spectacle shouted and insulted her. Still another says she was dragged to death behind a horse as punishment. Either way, the legends agree that the Romans didn’t appreciate the unpleasant discovery.

Several odd historical details gave weight to the legend, including the fact that among the carved busts of the popes in the cathedral of Sienna was one of an unnamed woman, No one knows who created it or how it was put there, but when Pope Clement VIII (reigned 1592 - 1605) discovered it, he ordered it reworked enough to represent Pope Zacharias, whose image had not previously been included in the collection.

This is not surprising, though, given the widespread belief in Europe in the Pope Joan legend during the 13th through 18th centuries. Versions abounded, and many credulous folk, Catholics included, were sincerely convinced that there had indeed been a female pope.

But the facts of history show otherwise. The primary proofs that this is all just a fable are these: First, the earliest point that we can trace the legend to is the mid-13th century, but the legend didn’t really gain wide currency until the late 14th century.

No evidence of any kind exists from the ninth century (when Pope Joan was alleged to have reigned), nor do we see any in the 10th through 12th centuries. None of the annals or acts of the popes that were written between the ninth and 13th centuries (and none after that, either) mention her.

Church historian J. P. Kirsch wrote that "Not one contemporaneous historical source among the papal histories knows anything about her, also, no mention is made of her until the middle of the 13th century. Now it is incredible that the appearance of a ‘popess,’ if it was a historical fact, would be noticed by none of the numerous historians from the 10th to the 13th century.

In the history of the popes, there is no place where this legendary figure will fit in. Between Leo IV and Benedict III, where Martinus Polonus places her, she cannot be inserted . . ."(Article on Pope Joan, Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913).

So where did the legend come from? There are two likely possibilities, The first is that the Roman population became disgusted with the corrupt influence wielded over Pope Sergius (reigned 904-911) by the powerful and wealthy Theodora Theophylact, and more specifically by her young daughter Morozia, a cunning and exceptionally attractive woman. It appears that Morozia was Sergius’ mistress and bore him at least one son (the future Pope John XI).

The fabulously wealthy and prestigious Theophylact family wielded immense power in Rome during the 10th century, even, sadly, over several popes. This is a sorry episode in the history of the Church, one which displayed a decadence and immorality that even popes, at times, could fall prey to - a reminder to us all that men, even the holiest of men, are not invulnerable to temptation and personal weakness. Despite their sins, Christ’s promise that the Church would be protected from error was not, nor has it ever been, broken.

From the details of Sergius III’s pontificate, it seems clear that he was a vain, violent and sensuous man. It’s quite possible that the disgusted faithful took to mocking him or one of his immediate successors because he was perceived to have been under the influence of the Theophylact women.

Some historians trace the legend of a female pope to Morozia, saying the people called her “Pope Joan” to mock the weak popes she controlled, in the same way some American first ladies have been called “president” to mock their perceived weak husbands.

Another possible explanation for the Pope Joan legend lies in the conduct of the much maligned Pope John VIII (reigned 872-882). He appears to have had a very weak personality, even perhaps somewhat effeminate.

Cardinal Baronius, in his Church history Annals, suggests that John VIII’s reputation as effeminate gave rise to the legend. Indeed, it would seem that over time, the common folk added ever more lurid embellishments until the vulgar jokes about the hapless (and certainly male) pope ballooned and metamorphosed into a female “popessa.”

Pax tecum,
 
Church Militant:
And of course (rocket scientist that I am. :rolleyes: ) I missed that. :rotfl:

A friend just e-mailed me this from Patrick Madrid.

The Myth of Pope Joan
By Patrick Madrid

POPE FICTION # 19: Um, :o I posted the link to this article too.
 
Here’s a depressing internet poll from an America On-Line site:

Do you think there was a Pope Joan?
Yes, seems so 61%
No, it’s an urban legend 22%
I can’t decide 17%
Total Votes: 57,250

That’s 78% of people who believe that it’s even a possibility. How many of those are Catholics? We apologists still have our work cut out for us.
 
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Fidelis:
Here’s a depressing internet poll from an America On-Line site:

Do you think there was a Pope Joan?
Yes, seems so 61%
No, it’s an urban legend 22%
I can’t decide 17%
Total Votes: 57,250

That’s 78% of people who believe that it’s even a possibility. How many of those are Catholics? We apologists still have our work cut out for us.
And sandbag jobs by the Mainstream Media don’t make it any easier. If there are Catholics who think we’re not under attack by the MSM, they need to wake up.
 
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