Did a pope make a deal with Hitler?

[Sailor_Kenshin]

The next showing is early Thursday morning. ewtn.com/tv/NA_2010_Oct_17_week.asp

Thanks for posting the link. Is it up on Youtube as well?

 

[sedonaman]

Thanks for posting the link. Is it up on Youtube as well?

You’ll have to check. It’s an hour long.

 

[SemperReformada]

I was listening to a Hitchen’s debate, and he mentioned something about a Pope cutting a deal with Hitler. Does anyone know anything about this?

Yes, the Pope did in fact sign a concordat w/ Nazi Germany in 1933. I am sure you can google this and read the text for yourself. I believe it’s called the Reichskonkordat.

Wise or unwise it’s a historical fact.

From what I remember of the text there is nothing shocking. I believe there is a paragraph that requires bishops, before taking charge of their dioces, to swear loyalty to the German government but I don’t think anyone should read that as requiring the bishops to support the many evils of Nazi Germany.

 

[SemperReformada]

Looks like someone already beat me to it but the text of the concordat between the Vatican and Germany (pre WWII) can be found at>

newadvent.org/library/docs_ss33co.htm

 

[buffalo]

A Hand of Peace: Pope Pius XII and the Holocaust

 

[buffalo]

The pope spent his inheritance helping 3000 Jews. Convents and parishes were opened in Rome to secretly house them to protect them.

When the Pope died Israel sent emissaries.

Pope Pius XII was a hero and Jews know it.

 

[SemperReformada]

The pope spent his inheritance helping 3000 Jews. Convents and parishes were opened in Rome to secretly house them to protect them.

When the Pope died Israel sent emissaries.

Pope Pius XII was a hero and Jews know it.

Did you know that the Pope was praised by many, many Jews at the end of WWII? It’s been several years but I have read two or three books on this subject and it seems to me the Pope chose a course of action that was reasonable and did much good.

Sure he could have done more or done things differently but unaided by 20/20 hindsight he seems to have done pretty well…all things considered.

 

[Mikaele]

Didn’t the main rabbi in Rome become a Catholic after the war?

 

[streetpreacher]

Ok, seeing this as a really bad contract, this one has too many strings attached. The rest of what’s discussed seems agreeable enough, but at what cost!!! Here are some that stood out, I’d never put my initials or signature with these stipulations:

Signing over of ones mind:

Article 3

In order to foster good relations between the Holy See and the German Reich, an Apostolic Nuncio will reside in the capital of the German Reich and an Ambassador of the German Reich at the Holy See, as heretofore.

Signing over of ones body:

Article 16

Before bishops take possession of their dioceses they are to take an oath of fealty either to the Reich Representative of the State concerned, or to the President of the Reich, according to the following formula: “Before God and on the Holy Gospels I swear and promise as becomes a bishop, loyalty to the German Reich and to the State of . . . I swear and promise to honor the legally constituted Government and to cause the clergy of my diocese to honor it. In the performance of my spiritual office and in my solicitude for the welfare and the interests of the German Reich, I will endeavor to avoid all detrimental acts which might endanger it.”

Signing over of ones soul:

Article 30

On Sundays and Holy days, special prayers, conforming to the Liturgy, will be offered during the principal Mass for the welfare of the German Reich and its people in all episcopal, parish and conventual churches and chapels of the German Reich.

 

[StTommyMore]

Ok, seeing this as a really bad contract, this one has too many strings attached. The rest of what’s discussed seems agreeable enough, but at what cost!!! Here are some that stood out, I’d never put my initials or signature with these stipulations:

Signing over of ones mind:

Article 3

In order to foster good relations between the Holy See and the German Reich, an Apostolic Nuncio will reside in the capital of the German Reich and an Ambassador of the German Reich at the Holy See, as heretofore.

Signing over of ones body:

Article 16

Before bishops take possession of their dioceses they are to take an oath of fealty either to the Reich Representative of the State concerned, or to the President of the Reich, according to the following formula: “Before God and on the Holy Gospels I swear and promise as becomes a bishop, loyalty to the German Reich and to the State of . . . I swear and promise to honor the legally constituted Government and to cause the clergy of my diocese to honor it. In the performance of my spiritual office and in my solicitude for the welfare and the interests of the German Reich, I will endeavor to avoid all detrimental acts which might endanger it.”

Signing over of ones soul:

Article 30

On Sundays and Holy days, special prayers, conforming to the Liturgy, will be offered during the principal Mass for the welfare of the German Reich and its people in all episcopal, parish and conventual churches and chapels of the German Reich.

As far as Article 30 goes, are we not supposed to pray for our leaders, including their conversion?

 

[vladimir998]

The rest of what’s discussed seems agreeable enough, but at what cost!!! Here are some that stood out, I’d never put my initials or signature with these stipulations:.

What you would do is completely unimportant. The pope was responsible for millions. He was trying to protect them. He wanted the Church to survive in Germany so it could continue to minsiter to souls. He knew what the Church had suffered there in the Kulturkampf. No one expected that Hitler would be dramatically worse.

Signing over of ones mind:Article 3 In order to foster good relations between the Holy See and the German Reich, an Apostolic Nuncio will reside in the capital of the German Reich and an Ambassador of the German Reich at the Holy See, as heretofore. :.

Exchanging of ambassadors signs over NO ONE’S MIND. It’s an exchange of ambassadors. All countries do it and we’re talking about two countries here.

Signing over of ones body: Article 16 Before bishops take possession of their dioceses they are to take an oath of fealty either to the Reich Representative of the State concerned, or to the President of the Reich, according to the following formula: “Before God and on the Holy Gospels I swear and promise as becomes a bishop, loyalty to the German Reich and to the State of . . . I swear and promise to honor the legally constituted Government and to cause the clergy of my diocese to honor it. In the performance of my spiritual office and in my solicitude for the welfare and the interests of the German Reich, I will endeavor to avoid all detrimental acts which might endanger it.” :.

Nope. An oath of fealty to the state is not a problem when it is to “the legally constituted Government”. Our soldiers do something similar. In itself it is good and noble. The fact that the Nazis twisted “the legally constituted Government” is an entirely different issue.

Signing over of ones soul: Article 30 On Sundays and Holy days, special prayers, conforming to the Liturgy, will be offered during the principal Mass for the welfare of the German Reich and its people in all episcopal, parish and conventual churches and chapels of the German Reich.

That just means the liturgy would be done as it was in every country. No one’s soul was signed over.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

Worse and more consequential deals were made than the concordat. It could be argued that the concordat gave international legitimacy to the Nazi regime, but it seems to me that the other nations of Europe were not exactly eager to confront Nazism: that international legitimacy would probably have come about one way or another. It is rather regrettable that the Vatican was the first to grant this dignity to the Nazi regime, but by no means unforgivable.

 

[Church_Militant]

Ok, seeing this as a really bad contract, this one has too many strings attached. The rest of what’s discussed seems agreeable enough, but at what cost!!! Here are some that stood out, I’d never put my initials or signature with these stipulations:

Signing over of ones mind:

Article 3

In order to foster good relations between the Holy See and the German Reich, an Apostolic Nuncio will reside in the capital of the German Reich and an Ambassador of the German Reich at the Holy See, as heretofore.

Signing over of ones body:

Article 16

Before bishops take possession of their dioceses they are to take an oath of fealty either to the Reich Representative of the State concerned, or to the President of the Reich, according to the following formula: “Before God and on the Holy Gospels I swear and promise as becomes a bishop, loyalty to the German Reich and to the State of . . . I swear and promise to honor the legally constituted Government and to cause the clergy of my diocese to honor it. In the performance of my spiritual office and in my solicitude for the welfare and the interests of the German Reich, I will endeavor to avoid all detrimental acts which might endanger it.”

Signing over of ones soul:

Article 30

On Sundays and Holy days, special prayers, conforming to the Liturgy, will be offered during the principal Mass for the welfare of the German Reich and its people in all episcopal, parish and conventual churches and chapels of the German Reich.

Matthew 5:44] But I say to you, Love your enemies and** pray **for those who persecute you,

** Lauds for Pope Pius XII and the Catholic Church in WWII**

Albert Einstein on the Catholic Church:

“Only the Catholic Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing the truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised, I now praise unreservedly.”

Dr Joseph Nathan, representing the Hebrew Commission in September 1945.

“We express our heartfelt gratitude to those who protected and saved us during the Nazi-Fascist persecutions. Above all, we acknowledge the Supreme Pontiff [Pope Pius Xll] and the religious men and women who, executing the directives of the Holy Father, recognised the persecuted as their brothers and with great abnegation, hastened to help them, disregarding the terrible dangers to which they were exposed.”

Someone Has Lied to You About Our Pope Pius XII

 

[Church_Militant]

It is rather regrettable that the Vatican was the first to grant this dignity to the Nazi regime, but by no means unforgivable.

I wonder if anyone realizes that Pope Pius XII was probably far more wise than some want to give him credit for.

Seeing as no one else, and no other nation did anywhere near what he facilitated that helped preserve the lives of thousands of Jews right in the midst of a fascist nation allied with Germany, I think saying it was regrettable is inaccurate. Did anyone else do enough to help the Jews? No…even though allied intelligence knew what was going on and sat back and let it happen. Americans were marching in the streets with banners calling it “Europe’s problem” (the whole war)

It seems obvious to me that Pius XII was wise enough to maneuver the Church into the best possible position to do good, knowing, as I’m sure he did that the Reich would never honor any agreements they made. Did the Church honor the Concordat? With lip service perhaps…but we paid a heavy toll in clergy and religious for doing what Pope Pius XII instructed them to quietly carry out.

Read the story of St. Maximilian Kolbe.

Father Maximilian Kolbe

 

[StTommyMore]

Worse and more consequential deals were made than the concordat. It could be argued that the concordat gave international legitimacy to the Nazi regime, but it seems to me that the other nations of Europe were not exactly eager to confront Nazism: that international legitimacy would probably have come about one way or another. It is rather regrettable that the Vatican was the first to grant this dignity to the Nazi regime, but by no means unforgivable.

I hate to break it to you, but Hitler came to power by way of legal means. Hitler was elected chancellor (as per the Wiemar constitution). the Great Depression gave him the cause to declare a state of national emergency and martial law (again, according to their constitution). Woyld you have preferred Nazi armies marching into the Vatican and plundering the artwork and wealth, perhaps being burned to the ground?

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

What you would do is completely unimportant. The pope was responsible for millions. He was trying to protect them. He wanted the Church to survive in Germany so it could continue to minsiter to souls. He knew what the Church had suffered there in the Kulturkampf. No one expected that Hitler would be dramatically worse.

Exchanging of ambassadors signs over NO ONE’S MIND. It’s an exchange of ambassadors. All countries do it and we’re talking about two countries here.

Nope. An oath of fealty to the state is not a problem when it is to “the legally constituted Government”. Our soldiers do something similar. In itself it is good and noble. The fact that the Nazis twisted “the legally constituted Government” is an entirely different issue.

That just means the liturgy would be done as it was in every country. No one’s soul was signed over.

AMEN.

 

[sedonaman]

This whole idea that Pius was “Hitler’s Pope” was the result of a play called The Deputy which was cooked up by the KGB to discredit the moral authority of the Catholic Church. This strikes a chord in those with a predilection to believe something bad before believing something good about someone, especially someone in a position of authority [the default assumption being that authority is being abused]. Or, as Churchill put it, “Falsehood can circle the globe before truth has a chance to put on its pants.”

But think about this: Those who today complain that the Pope didn’t “do enough” to oppose the Nazis are the same ones who criticize the Church for “mixing religion with politics” when it speaks up on social issues. So just exactly how much is “enough” without being too much? Looks like a no-win situation.

 

[NotWorthy]

As to the role of the Pope against Hitler, nothing is a better testament than the forest of trees that Israel planted in honor of the number of Jews that the Pope saved. Israel certainly honors the role of the Pope in World War II.

Here’s the quote:

"No Pope in history has been thanked more heartily by Jews. Upon his death in 1958, several suggested in open letters that a Pope Pius XII forest of 860,000 trees be planted on the hills of Judea in order to fittingly honor the memory of the late Pontiff because the Catholic Church under the pontificate of Pius XII was instrumental in saving the lives of as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands."

• Pinchas E. Lapide, Three Popes and the Jews (1967).

In the Negeb, southeast of Jerusalem, there stands a forest that was planted in acknowledgment of the Jewish lives saved by Pope Pius XII, one tree for every life. The forest has 800,000 trees.

Enough Said!