Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?

[inJESUS]

This is a HUGE corruption in the Bible if you are correct, but why was such a huge corruption not clearly corrected?

isn’t it strange that the mission of the author of the Quran is to “correct” and “clear doubts”?

what did the author clarify about this huge and serious corruption? nothing, he made it a bigger confusion that resulted in Muslim scholars refuting each others while all claiming to have heard it from Muhammad.

what did the author of Quran clarify about the crucifixion? nothing, he made it a bigger , if not the biggest confusion that resulted in a thousand theory none of which makes sense and ironically the author said “those who are full in doubt”, when the clear fact is that the ones full in doubt about it have always been the Muslims!

what did the author of the Quran clarify about the Trinity belief? nothing , he made it a bigger confusion that resulted in Muslims believing we worship Mary and 3 gods.

what did the author of Quran clarify about the title son of God in Christianity? nothing, he made it a bigger confusion that resulted in Muslims believing that God had a woman and therefore had a physical son.

All in all, the author of the Quran did anything but clarify things because he himself did not undrstand them so how can he clarify them? and the result is Muslims not undrstanding them as well, in addition to confusion that is why when they put their answers about our belief on our forum, you can’t help but raise both of your eyebrows, all while claiming that their knowledge of our belief was said literally by an all-knowing deity, who, obviously, knows nothing of what we really believe in that is why his refutations make no sense as we do not believe in them in the first place.

 

[hamba2han]

Here is the hadith again:

Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 583)
Narrated Ibn Abbas:

The first lady to use a girdle was the mother of Ishmael. She used a girdle so that she might hide her tracks from Sarah. Abraham brought her and her son Ishmael while she was suckling him, to a place near the Ka’ba under a tree on the spot of Zam-zam, at the highest place in the mosque. During those days there was nobody in Mecca, nor was there any water. So he made them sit over there and placed near them a leather bag containing some dates, and a small water-skin containing some water, and set out homeward. Ishmael’s mother followed him saying, “O Abraham! Where are you going, leaving us in this valley where there is no person whose company we may enjoy, nor is there anything (to enjoy)?” She repeated that to him many times, but he did not look back at her. Then she asked him, "Has Allah ordered you to do so?" He said, “Yes.” She said, “Then He will not neglect us,”…**The child (i.e. Ishmael) grew up and learnt Arabic from them **and (his virtues) caused them to love and admire him as he grew up, **and when he reached the age of puberty they made him marry a woman from amongst them. **After Ishmael’s mother had died, Abraham came after Ishmael’s marriage in order to see his family that he had left before, but he did not find Ishmael there. When he asked Ishmael’s wife about him, she replied, "He has gone in search of our livelihood.’ …

so Allah ordered Abraham to leave Hajar and his suckling son in order to go back to Sarah…why if he is to sacrifice Ishmael?and when did Ishmael return to be sacrificied if he grew up where he settled and got married before seeing his father?where was Ishmael at the “age of running” as per Quran? he was with his mother, not with Abraham who saw him after he got married.

Christians need to make up their minds here.

If you accept that this hadith is true, then you MUST of course reject the Biblical account whereby Ishmael (pbuh) is already a 16-year old teenager when he was sent away with his mother after supposedly mocking his little brother because this hadith clearly states that Ishmael (pbuh) was just a suckling infant at the time and this completely contradicts the story of the “banishment” according to the Bible.

And if indeed you accept the truth of this hadith and consequently reject the Biblical account, then the issue of whether it was really Ishmael or Isaac (pbut) who was to be sacrificed becomes rather insignificant, does it not?

I mean, if the Bible is not correct in saying that Ishmael (pbuh) was mocking his little brother when in actual fact Isaac (pbuh) was not even born yet at the time of this alleged “banishment”, then what exactly is it that makes you so sure that the covenant was made through Isaac?

Like I have previously pointed out, according to the Bible, the covenant was made at the time the command was given to circumcise male children.

You are selectively citing the Bible, picking what you like and ignoring what you disagree with.

Yes, I do know how Christians feel about the Bible.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

Sorry, I would contribute something about clarity and confusion in this thread,incidentally I posted it into CARM today.

christiandiscussionforums…&postcount=180
christiandiscussionforums…t=81506&page=9
christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showpost.php?p=2261351&postcount=124

Originally Posted by paarsurrey

Hi
The JWs believe that they are the only true Christians, and they are entitled to equal rights and free will as you do.
The Catholics believe that the Protestants are a cult or a heretic denomination; the Catholics you know are the majority denomination and of course they are entitled to equal rights and free will as you do.
I would like that JWs , the Protestants and Catholics etc about 32000plus denomination should unite into One Christendom to end the confusion in the Christianity for peace in the world, not compromising but uniting in truth with peaceful dialogue.
I think you agree with me.
Thanks

originally Posted by RAIDERJO76

Protestants, Catholics, and Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot unite because each is an entirely separate religion and none of them can coexist. Neither Catholicism nor Jehovah’s Witnesses are Christian. They are both apostate and teach completely heretical doctrine; therefore they shouldn’t be considered Christian denominations.

 

[inJESUS]

Christians need to make up their minds here.

If you accept that this hadith is true, then you MUST

 

[inJESUS]

Paar dont you think this is off-topic?

 

[hamba2han]

it is YOUR tradition that opposes your claim that it was Ishmael so the Bible HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO HERE. I believe neither Quran nor tradition but am pointing out that your tradition betrays your claim. Do i really need to explain this?

The Bible has ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING to do with it because it is YOUR Bible that contradicts your claim that it was Isaac (pbuh).

what does this have to do with the sacrifice?

If the Bible is completely wrong in the story of the alleged mocking and subsequent banishment of Ishmael (pbuh), then what, pray tell, does the sacrifice have to do with the covenant?

 

[inJESUS]

The Bible has ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING

to do with it because it is YOUR Bible that contradicts your claim that it was Isaac (pbuh).how so if the Bible says:

Then God said, "YES, BUT YOUR WIFE SARAH WILL BEAR YOU A SON, AND YOU WILL CALL HIM ISAAC. I WILL ESTABLISH MY COVENANT WITH HIM AS AN EVERLASTING COVENANT FOR HIS DESCENDANTS AFTER HIM.

where is the contradiction in these plain words?

If the Bible is completely wrong in the story of the alleged mocking and subsequent banishment of Ishmael (pbuh), then what, pray tell, does the sacrifice have to do with the covenant?

 

[inJESUS]

I repeat again:

it is YOUR tradition that opposes your claim that it was Ishmael so the Bible HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO HERE. I believe neither Quran nor tradition but am pointing out that your tradition betrays your claim. Your tradition is clear that Ishmael was NOT with Abraham at “the age of running” but was exiled long time before not to see Abraham until he got married for the second time even.

The Bible clearly says the covenant is with Isaac.

So you can neither claim the Bible does not say it, nor are you answering your own tradition.

 

[Jesusisgod]

Christians need to make up their minds here.

If you accept that this hadith is true, then you MUST of course reject the Biblical account whereby Ishmael (pbuh) is already a 16-year old teenager when he was sent away with his mother after supposedly mocking his little brother because this hadith clearly states that Ishmael (pbuh) was just a suckling infant at the time and this completely contradicts the story of the “banishment” according to the Bible.

And if indeed you accept the truth of this hadith and consequently reject the Biblical account, then the issue of whether it was really Ishmael or Isaac (pbut) who was to be sacrificed becomes rather insignificant, does it not?

I mean, if the Bible is not correct in saying that Ishmael (pbuh) was mocking his little brother when in actual fact Isaac (pbuh) was not even born yet at the time of this alleged “banishment”, then what exactly is it that makes you so sure that the covenant was made through Isaac?

Like I have previously pointed out, according to the Bible, the covenant was made at the time the command was given to circumcise male children.

Yes, I do know how Christians feel about the Bible.

Anybody who accepts any islamic hadith as reliable except in its record of the shames of muhammad is a lunatic.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Yes, I do know how Christians feel about the Bible.

That doesnt answer my claims. Christians think of the Bible very highly, so much so that we cant over look the glaring selective citations of the Bible you post as “evidence”.

The Bible stands alone in regards to its historical witness and its detail.

 

[swariffin]

Actually the Quran doesn’t even say Ishmael either… all it says is that Abraham was told to sacrifice his son, but it never mentions the son’s name. That this son was Ishmael rather than Isaac developed purely out of Muslim oral tradition.

EDIT: sorry, looks like this was cleared up already.

Dear Exoflare and InJesus,

Thank you for your clarifications. So, the muslims believe in conspiracy theory of the OT which cannot be proven? I think this is a very fundamental issue. I wish that our Muslim brothers can come out with veriyable proof, not self-claim proof or just a mere accusations. It seems even the writer of Quran did not dare to explicitly wrote Ishmael instead of Isaac.

 

[swariffin]

There is a key element in this story of Abraham’s (pbuh) obedience to God in sacrificing his only son which can easily answer the question of which son was to be sacrificed i.e. that of God’s command for all male children to be circumcised.

Genesis 17:10 "This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised."

Genesis 17:13 "He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant."

And according to the Bible, how old was Abraham (pbuh) when he was circumcised?

Genesis 17:24 "Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin."

That makes Abraham’s son Ishmael 13, how old is Isaac at this time? Genesis 21:5 "Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him."

This means that during the circumcision/sacrifice, Abraham’s only “begotten” son is Ishmael and not Isaac as the Bible says.

The covenant therefore was made with Abraham and Ishmael.

The real problem here is that Christians and Jews do not believe (or more specifically, do not want to believe) what is so clearly written in their own Bible.

And no matter how much they try to twist and turn the issue, they just cannot turn away from what the Bible is telling them about the precise moment in time when the covenant was made…

There is really no conflict between the Bible and the Qur’an and the only places where there exists variances between these two sciptures is when the Bible actually contradicts itself as can be seen in the story of Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all).

Dear Hamba2han,

We believe the bible, because we (at least some of us) have read the bible entirely, not just a verse by a verse. We have studied the bible entirely (at least some of us, especially those scholar-priests). Eventhough the bible is not a history/science book, we checked what was written against what science has discovered. All interpretations of a verse is checked against interpretations of other verses. Since your Quran came later, and claim to correct what was wrong with the bible, what proof do you bring? Just the Quran, itself? Hey, what about the Satanic Verses by Salman Rusdhie? His works came later than the Quran, and the proof he brought was the Book itself right? Should we believe in the later version of the Quran which came from Salman Rusdhie?

 

[planten]

It would be a factor in viewing it as a test of faith for Abraham. If Abraham believed Isaac was his only surviving son, then, as far as testing his faith, it is not relevant if he actually had another surviving son.

This discussion can be useful only if the status of Ishamel is decided first. Was Ishamel the son of Abraham? The son is always referred to the father, not to the mother. please let us know, as per bible OT, was Ishmael the son of Abraham or not?

 

[Valke2]

This discussion can be useful only if the status of Ishamel is decided first. Was Ishamel the son of Abraham? The son is always referred to the father, not to the mother. please let us know, as per bible OT, was Ishmael the son of Abraham or not?

Ishmael was, I believe, the son of Abraham. There were various ways a child of a women who was not the legal wife would nevertheless be the legitimate child of the father.

 

[inJESUS]

Dear Exoflare and InJesus,

Thank you for your clarifications. So, the muslims believe in conspiracy theory of the OT which cannot be proven?

2 points here :

1- it is not Muslims…it is some Muslims, as i have showed many of the best scholars believe it was Isaac

2- yes those who believe it was Ishmael cannot do better than claiming, as usual, the Bible is corrupt…do they have an option? but the OT, NT and both Jewish and Christian traditions show they are, as usual, wrong and base their arguments on nothing but claims.

 

[planten]

Ishmael was, I believe, the son of Abraham. There were various ways a child of a women who was not the legal wife would nevertheless be the legitimate child of the father.

**Thanks for your fairmind. You have admitted that Ishmael was the son of Abraham even though not from the first wife. Abraham had a second wife (Hagar) and a third (Keturah) one too. So Ishmael was the legitimate son of Abraham. He was also the first born son. he was also the only son for thirteen years. I hope this will be admitted.

Sarai gave Hagar to Abraham as wife (Gen. 16). We see some sons born to Jacob through maids. Your sentence about the legitimacy of sons is, I hope, world wide, all encompassing.?? **

 

[planten]

**
The bible says that it was Issac who was sacrificed. Quran does not say so. The Quran does not name Ishamel too. But the sequence of events is very clear in the Quran chapter 37 verses 83 to 112 shown below: (Noble Quran Translation)

1. And, verily, among those who followed his [Nûh’s (Noah)] way (Islâmic Monotheism) was Ibrâhim (Abraham).
2. When he came to his Lord with a pure heart [attached to Allâh Alone and none else, worshipping none but Allâh Alone true Islâmic Monotheism, pure from the filth of polytheism].
3. When he said to his father and to his people: "What is it that which you worship?
4. "Is it a falsehood âliha (gods) other than Allâh that you seek?
5. “Then what do you think about the Lord of the 'Alamîn (mankind, jinns, and all that exists)?”
6. Then he cast a glance at the stars (to deceive them),
7. And he said: “Verily, I am sick (with plague. He did this trick to remain in their temple of idols to destroy them and not to accompany them to the pagan’s feast).”
8. So they turned away from him, and departed (for fear of the disease).
9. Then he turned to their âliha (gods) and said: "Will you not eat (of the offering before you)?
10. “What is the matter with you that you speak not?”
11. Then he turned upon them, striking (them) with (his) right hand.
12. Then they (the worshippers of idols) came, towards him, hastening.
13. He said: "Worship you that which you (yourselves) carve?
14. “While Allâh has created you and what you make!”
15. They said: “Build for him a building (it is said that the building was like a furnace) and throw him into the blazing fire!”
16. So they plotted a plot against him, but We made them the lowest. (losers)
17. And he said (after his rescue from the fire): “Verily, I am going to my Lord. He will guide me!”
    Abraham left his native country]
18. “My Lord! Grant me (offspring) from the righteous.”
    He had no children. He prayed to Allah to grant him a son]
19. So We gave him the glad tidings of a forbearing boy.
    [So Allah gave him the good news of a son. This is the good news of the first son, Ishmael[/COLOR]]
20. And, when he (his son) was old enough to walk with him, he said: “O my son! I have seen in a dream that I am slaughtering you (offer you in sacrifice to Allâh), so look what you think!” He said: “O my father! Do that which you are commanded, Inshâ’ Allâh (if Allâh will), you shall find me of As-Sâbirin (the patient ones, etc.).”

This word patient one is very important. Ishmael is mentioned in the Quran as the patient one. ]
103. Then, when they had both submitted themselves (to the Will of Allâh), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (or on the side of his forehead for slaughtering);
104. And We called out to him: “O Abraham!
105. You have fulfilled the dream (vision)!” Verily! Thus do We reward the Muhsinûn (good-doers - see V.2:112).
106. Verily, that indeed was a manifest trial
107. And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice (i.e. ßÈÔ - a ram);
108. And We left for him (a goodly remembrance) among generations (to come) in later times.
109. Salâmun (peace) be upon Ibrâhim (Abraham)!"
110. Thus indeed do We reward the Muhsinûn (good-doers - see V.2:112).
111. Verily, he was one of Our believing slaves.
112. And We gave him the glad tidings of Ishâque (Isaac) a Prophet from the righteous.

This is the good news of the birth of Issac. Abraham was told that Issac will be a prophet. Abraham was also told about the birth of Jacob from Issac. ]

The sequence is very clear. Abraham went through many trials. He was steadfast. He had to leave his country. Allah promised to give him the big land, that he will inherit the land as far as he can see.
But he felt that it will be no use. He was old and what use could that land be to him. So he prayed to Allah to grant him a son. The prayer was accepted and Sarai had the good heart. Her heart opened up for the sake of her husband. She offered her maid (Hagar) to Abraham as a wife. Allah grnted the first son to Abraham at the age of 86 from that Hagar.

Then there was another trial for Abraham. He was told in a vision to sacrifice his best thing in the way of Allah. He tried to sacrifice some animals but he saw the same vision again a few nights. So he understood the message and got ready to sacrifice his only beloved son of old age (Ishmael). He passed this very hard test also. Allah was all the more pleased with him and so Allah gave him the good news of the birth of Issac.

That is the sequence of events as described in the Quran. Without naming any one, it tells us that it was the first born son who was sacrificed. That was Ishmael. Ishmael was also the promised son, as per verse 101 of Quran and also as per the bible OT. He was the promised son.
**

 

[ralphinal]

This thread is amazing to me. We have the Koran with a certain order and we have the Bible with another. The part that amazes me is the answer from the Muslims. The Bible is very clear that Isaac was the promised son.

Then God said, "YES, BUT YOUR WIFE SARAH WILL BEAR YOU A SON, AND YOU WILL CALL HIM ISAAC. I WILL ESTABLISH MY COVENANT WITH HIM AS AN EVERLASTING COVENANT FOR HIS DESCENDANTS AFTER HIM.

But, I have yet to see the Muslim answer to this. The chronolgy is different in the two books as well. Both sides have a reason to say that they are correct. Perhaps we can change the question.

Does anyone have any proof that Ishmael was the sacrifice that pre-dates the Koran? In other words, was this thought out there before? Genesis is older and an Arabic person wrote the Koran, so why should I not think that he put Ishmael in there for political reasons?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

If you have been following this thread you will see these are the major problems that exist:

1)The Quaran does not mention Ishmael, so where do you get that name if not from the Bible?

2)Muslim scholars say it was Isaac.

3)You have no grounds to say the Bible is corrupt, and it is clear the Bible contradicts your claims.

4)The Bible clearly teaches Ishmael was sent off to live apart from Abraham because Isaac was the one and only true heir of the Promise. And though Isaac’s lineage the Prophets, Scriptures and Messiah came.

The bible says that it was Issac who was sacrificed. Quran does not say so. The Quran does not name Ishamel too. But the sequence of events is very clear in the Quran chapter 37 verses 83 to 112 shown below: (Noble Quran Translation)

1. And he said (after his rescue from the fire): “Verily, I am going to my Lord. He will guide me!”
   [Abraham left his native country]
2. “My Lord! Grant me (offspring) from the righteous.”
   He had no children. He prayed to Allah to grant him a son]
3. So We gave him the glad tidings of a forbearing boy.
   [So Allah gave him the good news of a son. This is the good news of the first son, Ishmael]
4. And, when he (his son) was old enough to walk with him, he said: “O my son! I have seen in a dream that I am slaughtering you (offer you in sacrifice to Allâh), so look what you think!” He said: “O my father! Do that which you are commanded, Inshâ’ Allâh (if Allâh will), you shall find me of As-Sâbirin (the patient ones, etc.).”

[This word patient one is very important. Ishmael is mentioned in the Quran as the patient one. ]
103. Then, when they had both submitted themselves (to the Will of Allâh), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (or on the side of his forehead for slaughtering);
104. And We called out to him: “O Abraham!
105. You have fulfilled the dream (vision)!” Verily! Thus do We reward the Muhsinûn (good-doers - see V.2:112).
106. Verily, that indeed was a manifest trial
107. And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice (i.e. ßÈÔ - a ram);
108. And We left for him (a goodly remembrance) among generations (to come) in later times.
109. Salâmun (peace) be upon Ibrâhim (Abraham)!"
110. Thus indeed do We reward the Muhsinûn (good-doers - see V.2:112).
111. Verily, he was one of Our believing slaves.
112. And We gave him the glad tidings of Ishâque (Isaac) a Prophet from the righteous.

This is the good news of the birth of Issac. Abraham was told that Issac will be a prophet. Abraham was also told about the birth of Jacob from Issac. ]

The sequence is very clear. Abraham went through many trials. He was steadfast. He had to leave his country. Allah promised to give him the big land, that he will inherit the land as far as he can see.
But he felt that it will be no use. He was old and what use could that land be to him. So he prayed to Allah to grant him a son. The prayer was accepted and Sarai had the good heart. Her heart opened up for the sake of her husband. She offered her maid (Hagar) to Abraham as a wife. Allah grnted the first son to Abraham at the age of 86 from that Hagar.

Then there was another trial for Abraham. He was told in a vision to sacrifice his best thing in the way of Allah. He tried to sacrifice some animals but he saw the same vision again a few nights. So he understood the message and got ready to sacrifice his only beloved son of old age (Ishmael). He passed this very hard test also. Allah was all the more pleased with him and so Allah gave him the good news of the birth of Issac.

That is the sequence of events as described in the Quran. Without naming any one, it tells us that it was the first born son who was sacrificed. That was Ishmael. Ishmael was also the promised son, as per verse 101 of Quran and also as per the bible OT. He was the promised son.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

This thread is amazing to me. We have the Koran with a certain order and we have the Bible with another. The part that amazes me is the answer from the Muslims. The Bible is very clear that Isaac was the promised son.

But, I have yet to see the Muslim answer to this. The chronolgy is different in the two books as well. Both sides have a reason to say that they are correct. Perhaps we can change the question.

Does anyone have any proof that Ishmael was the sacrifice that pre-dates the Koran? In other words, was this thought out there before? Genesis is older and an Arabic person wrote the Koran, so why should I not think that he put Ishmael in there for political reasons?

The Quaran does list the events in a different order that the Bible, but DOES that mean it was dealing strictly with chronology at that point? In other words just because it was listed “first” does not necessarily mean it was chronologically first. Apparently some (most?) Muslim scholars historically teach it was in reference to Isaac.

Reading it as it stands, I see it saying that the sacrifice did happen chronologically before Isaac was born. And that is a problem.

It is pretty clear to me that this was changed to give Ishmael a more prominent place in salvation history, but the plain fact which I cannot overlook is the fact all the Scriptures, Prophets and Messiah came through Isaac and the Jacob (Israel). Thus the Promises God had in mind for Salvation history could not have been through Ishmael who was off the radar for thousands of years.