Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?

[MugenOne]

This is desperate De Maria!! Hagar was a ligetamate wife as sarah was . ihsmael was a ligitimate son as Isac was .
No, Hagar was not Abraham’s wife. She’s a bondwoman and didn’t have much freedom as Sarah. You guys are twisting history to fit your religion.

By your flawed logic, half the sons of israel are not real sons of Jacob!!!

You are just bieng desperate.

Any way . Point is made . Only son is only son . It can happen to the eldest son only , which is Ishmael. which is refferred to as a son in gazillion times in the bible .

bye

 

[MugenOne]

No, Hagar was not Abraham’s wife. She’s a bondwoman and didn’t have much freedom as Sarah. You guys are twisting history to fit your religion.

This is desperate De Maria!! Hagar was a ligetamate wife as sarah was . ihsmael was a ligitimate son as Isac was .
No, Hagar was not Abraham’s wife. She’s a bondwoman and didn’t have much freedom as Sarah. You guys are twisting history to fit your religion.

By your flawed logic, half the sons of israel are not real sons of Jacob!!!

You are just bieng desperate.

Any way . Point is made . Only son is only son . It can happen to the eldest son only , which is Ishmael. which is refferred to as a son in gazillion times in the bible .

bye

 

[inJESUS]

inJESUS;3135791:

all what you posted abopve doesnt refute any of what i said. You are stating that some companions stated it was Isaac . Yes we all know that . The fact is the only authenticated hadeeth going to the prophet behind the matter remains the one that i have pasted. the rest are just opinions of the companions or non authenticated hadeeth. Every body knows that al tabaris is one big history book that includes everything , with no authenrtiucation behind it.

yes and my point is not to show it was Isaac. We already know it, the Word of God says it.

I am only showing what a big confusion in Islam it is, when Muhammad was specifically sent to clear doubts…it’s not very accurate to give a definite answer when scholars and companions argued about it…even Ibn Al Khattab and Masud got it wrong it seems…Masud being one of Muhammads scribes.

where is the hadith you quoted taken from please? because the one i was talking about is Bukhari…

 

[inJESUS]

according to the bible it doesnt say anything abiout promised son , it just says a son!! you are adding to the verses what it doesnt contain . Ishmael is the son of abraham period . Thus he is the only son that is mentioned in teh sacrifiece. simple and pure logic .

no body is arguing that Ishmael is the only son from HAGAR. The only son talked about in your vrses has his name written down ISAAC. People who corrupt scriptures are not that stupd, are they?

 

[inJESUS]

This is desperate De Maria!! Hagar was a ligetamate wife as sarah was . ihsmael was a ligitimate son as Isac was .

yes Ishmael was legitimate but Hagar was NO wife. Even after giving birth she was adressed as sarah’s maidservant, never given the statue of a wife. So it is not a desperate interpretation . It is a correct interpretation given from the Bible in clear words, and can be understood better in light of the customs of those days.

 

[planten]

No, Hagar was not Abraham’s wife. She’s a bondwoman and didn’t have much freedom as Sarah. You guys are twisting history to fit your religion.

**Please note that Ishamel is mentioned as the son of Abraham in the bible. Whatever type of son he was. He was the son of Abraham. Abraham was 86 years old when Ishmael was born. So for about next thirteen years, Ishamel was the only son of Abraham or not?? Please reply.

He was also the beloved son of Abraham. Sarai had failed to produce a child for Abraham. In her desperation and to help her husband, sarai offered her maid servant to Abraham as a wife. There is a war of words going on for nothing to alter the word "wife’ now. Why?? It is there in the bible.

Abraham or Sarai for that matter would not do anything illegal. Abraham was legally approaching Hagar. Please consider all these things that Ishmael was the only son of Abraham for about 14 years. Admit that and we shall bring you around to seeing some more truths in this episode. If you keep denying everything that is given to you then it will become an exercise.in futility.

God was happy with Abraham and promised him lot of land. He had no son. He really had no son. You cannot say that he had Ishmael. He had no son at all and he prayed to God to grant him a son. God accepted his prayer and gave him the good news of the birth of a son. That was the first son, Ishmael.

Then God tested Abraham about sacrificing his son (by a dream), not in clear words as it is in bible. Abraham offered his only son Ishmael for sacrifice. God was all the more pleased with Abraham and then wanted to reward Abraham. It is clearly written in Quran.

But because you do not believe in Quran at all. Then it is useless to discuss with you. That reward was the good news of the birth of Issac. So please remember that Issac was not even born at the time of sacrifice in Makkah area (place called Marwah, that is near to safa and Marwah).

On the one hand you are all using Hadith to prove that the sacrifice was that of Issac. At the same time you do not believe in the Quran (Ch. 37, Verses 83 to 112). Quran is more superior compared to Hadith. It is the speech of God.**

 

[planten]

Originally Posted by MugenOne
No, Hagar was not Abraham’s wife. She’s a bondwoman and didn’t have much freedom as Sarah. You guys are twisting history to fit your religion.

**I forgot to reply to the problem raised by MugenOne. Sarai offered Hagar to Abraham as a wife. What could be better than a wife offering another lady to her husband as a wife. Nothing could be better and more legal. When Hagar was offered to Abraham as a wife then Hagar had the knowledge and every right and freedom.

Also please see that the children of Jacob from maidservants are inheriting everything.**

 

[De_Maria]

**I forgot to reply to the problem raised by MugenOne. Sarai offered Hagar to Abraham as a wife. What could be better than a wife offering another lady to her husband as a wife. Nothing could be better and more legal. **

That is true. But Abraham repudiated her (i.e. gave her back).

Genesis 16 *3 She took Agar the Egyptian her handmaid, ten years after they first dwelt in the land of Chanaan, and gave her to her husband to wife. **4 And he went in to her. But she, perceiving that she was with child, despised her mistress. **5 And Sarai said to Abram: Thou dost unjustly with me: I gave my handmaid into thy bosom, and she perceiving herself to be with child, despiseth me. The Lord judge between me and thee. *
*6 And Abram made answer, and said to her: ***Behold thy handmaid is in thy own hand, use her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai afflicted her, she ran away. **

**

When Hagar was offered to Abraham as a wife then Hagar had the knowledge and every right and freedom.

**

Apparently not.

*6 And Abram made answer, and said to her: ***Behold thy handmaid is in thy own hand, use her as it pleaseth thee. **
**

Also please see that the children of Jacob from maidservants are inheriting everything.

**

But God disposes and God determined what the child of Hagar would inherit:

17: 20 And as for Ismael I have also heard thee. Behold, I will bless him, and increase, and multiply him exceedingly: he shall beget twelve chiefs, and I will make him a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sara shall bring forth to thee at this time in the next year. 22 And when he had left off speaking with him, God went up from Abraham.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[planter654]

And the Quran says it was Ishmael. Well, the Arabian agree that Ishmael is the Father of the Arabian. So, they don’t want to associate Hagar which is Ishmael mother, was a woman servant of Abraham. Logically makes sense for them saying so. Who wants to admit that his/her ancestor was a servant anyway? But, it does twisted the proof from the earlier manuscript which came thousands of years prior to the Quran (the book of Genesis, I mean).

May I ask, was not Abraham not a served of God? Moses, Jesus or am I miss understanding your statement, if I am I am sorry. Just confused with your statement.

Thanks God Bless

 

[De_Maria]

**Please note that Ishamel is mentioned as the son of Abraham in the bible. Whatever type of son he was. He was the son of Abraham. Abraham was 86 years old when Ishmael was born. So for about next thirteen years, Ishamel was the only son of Abraham or not?? Please reply.

He was also the beloved son of Abraham. Sarai had failed to produce a child for Abraham. In her desperation and to help her husband, sarai offered her maid servant to Abraham as a wife. There is a war of words going on for nothing to alter the word "wife’ now. Why?? It is there in the bible.

Abraham or Sarai for that matter would not do anything illegal. Abraham was legally approaching Hagar. Please consider all these things that Ishmael was the only son of Abraham for about 14 years. Admit that and we shall bring you around to seeing some more truths in this episode. If you keep denying everything that is given to you then it will become an exercise.in futility.

God was happy with Abraham and promised him lot of land. He had no son. He really had no son. You cannot say that he had Ishmael. He had no son at all and he prayed to God to grant him a son. God accepted his prayer and gave him the good news of the birth of a son. That was the first son, Ishmael.

Then God tested Abraham about sacrificing his son (by a dream), not in clear words as it is in bible. Abraham offered his only son Ishmael for sacrifice. God was all the more pleased with Abraham and then wanted to reward Abraham. It is clearly written in Quran.

But because you do not believe in Quran at all. Then it is useless to discuss with you. That reward was the good news of the birth of Issac. So please remember that Issac was not even born at the time of sacrifice in Makkah area (place called Marwah, that is near to safa and Marwah).

On the one hand you are all using Hadith to prove that the sacrifice was that of Issac. At the same time you do not believe in the Quran (Ch. 37, Verses 83 to 112). Quran is more superior compared to Hadith. It is the speech of God.**

As you and Hamba have admitted, the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures are not corrupt. So t is either the Quran or the Islamic understanding of the Quran which is corrupt.

Now it is clear from Scripture that Abraham was instructed to sacrifice Isaac:

Genesis 22
2 He said to him: Take thy only begotten son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and go into the land of vision: and there thou shalt offer him for an holocaust upon one of the mountains which I will show thee.

If Abraham then turned around and offered Ishmael, then he disobeyed God. But Abraham is named Abraham because he is righteous and obedient to God, so that is not true.

And Scripture is clear it is Abraham took Isaac as God instructed, not Ishmael

Genesis 22
3 So Abraham rising up in the night, saddled his ***: and took with him two young men, and Isaac his son: and when he had cut wood for the holocaust he went his way to the place which God had commanded him.

And Isaac was old enough at this point to carry the wood and to speak:

Genesis 22

6 And he took the wood for the holocaust, and laid it upon Isaac his son: and he himself carried in his hands fire and a sword. And as they two went on together, 7 Isaac said to his father: My father. And he answered: What wilt thou, son? Behold, saith he, fire and wood: where is the victim for the holocaust?

Sooo, if you keep denying the truth, it is futile.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

…
On the one hand you are all using Hadith to prove that the sacrifice was that of Issac. At the same time you do not believe in the Quran (Ch. 37, Verses 83 to 112). Quran is more superior compared to Hadith. It is the speech of God.

But that is your problem isn’t it? They are both authoritative Islamic documents. Why do you have the hadith if you can’t rely on them?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

… can be understood better in light of the customs of those days.

Another excellent point. Muslims are used to interpreting documents according to their whim. They do not care about the customs of the day. It is obvious from Scripture that Abram did not consider Hagar his wife:

Genesis 16:6 And Abram made answer, and said to her: Behold thy handmaid is in thy own hand, use her as it pleaseth thee.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[planter654]

Thank you and others for clearing this up, from what you have pointed out the Quaran does not say it was Ishmael at all.

Wow, so his birth and mother are not even mentioned yet they put so much emphasis on his life? Clearly the Scritptures, Prophets and Messiah come through the Jews.

hamba2han how can you defend such a view when at most it is speculation?

May I ask and also correct (nicely please) me for I am “asking” Your statement that …clearly the Scriptures, Prophets and Messiah come through the Jews. But I question the words come through the Jews. Jacob is renamed “Israel” the “apple of God’s” eye right? So Israel his children the 10 tribes of Israel were Israelites were they not. Children of Israel. They were Hebrews like Jesus were they not at that time not Jews but Hebrew Israelites, right or wrong I stand to be corrected. Moses was a Hebrew was he not, was Moses mother not a Hebrew slave to the Egyptions? But do we not all become Israelites for we come now from the seed of Abraham through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior all who believe?

Like I am born in Canada, I am Canadian but I am, French and a Catholic.

Is the name Jew in the OT?

God Bless

 

[planter654]

Malek, and today there’s a new book by George Bush. Its called Axisofterror. It says in the book that Abraham’s son Ishmael was a paraplegic and accidentally castrated during his circumcision and therefore unfit to be sacrificed. The descendants of ishmael were in fact born through their butler.

Looks like the Axisofterror also corrected the erroneous Quran. Maybe next year there will be another final book and a last last prophet who has sex with a 3 year old girl instead of muhammad’s 9 year old sex mate.

I really hope you’re not offended. Cos what I’m saying is precisely what you silly muslims are doing.

My point is. Anybody can come up with a stupid book and claim another as false. Who is to know? It is up to the reader to determine who is speaking the truth. Not you, not me to judge who is true or false. But basic-basic common sense tells you that, between the two (Bible or quran), the one that comes first always has the right of refusal/rejection. Plus, going by the evidences of biblical scripture, miracles of its prophets and the comparatively superior character of its prophets. It is not hard to conclude that Islam is pure rubbish.

Good gracious, may someone save your foolishness.

Do you think that is why knowledge about God was done “orally” till after the time of Jesus. Was it not through their experiences that they knew God, he existed and he was a reality? they experienced his blessings, curses and his wrath. Just asking?

What book was it that “God commanded” Jeremias to not write once, but to rewrite it again after it got burnt, but twice than after God commanded Jeremias to tie a string around the book with a stone and throw it in the river??

God Bless

 

[planter654]

Another excellent point. Muslims are used to interpreting documents according to their whim. They do not care about the customs of the day. It is obvious from Scripture that Abram did not consider Hagar his wife:

Genesis 16:6 And Abram made answer, and said to her: Behold thy handmaid is in thy own hand, use her as it pleaseth thee.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Also did not God answer Abraham that he would Bless Hagar also what was the promise gave to Abraham, when Abraham ask God also to Bless Hagar?

God Bless

 

[De_Maria]

May I ask and also correct (nicely please) me for I am “asking” Your statement that …clearly the Scriptures, Prophets and Messiah come through the Jews. But I question the words come through the Jews. …
God Bless

Jesus said so:
John 4 22 You adore that which you know not: we adore that which we know; for salvation is of the Jews.

Is the name Jew in the OT?

Yes.
Jeremias 44
1 The word that came to Jeremias, concerning all the Jews that dwelt in the land of Egypt, dwelling in Magdal, and in Taphnis, and in Memphis, and in the land of Phatures, saying:

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Do you think that is why knowledge about God was done “orally” till after the time of Jesus.

I think you are in error about this concept. It seems that the Judaic/Christian religion has always had Scripture and tradition hand in hand.

Was it not through their experiences that they knew God, he existed and he was a reality? they experienced his blessings, curses and his wrath. Just asking?

I believe so, but they documented these experiences both in writing and in liturgy and in oral teaching.

What book was it that “God commanded” Jeremias to not write once, but to rewrite it again after it got burnt, but twice than after God commanded Jeremias to tie a string around the book with a stone and throw it in the river??

I don’t know. Maybe you could post what you are talking about and explain what it has to do with the subject of this thread.

God Bless

God bless you as well.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Also did not God answer Abraham that he would Bless Hagar also what was the promise gave to Abraham, when Abraham ask God also to Bless Hagar?

God Bless

I suppose anytime a child is blessed, his parents are blessed through that child. But I don’t see a mention of a direct blessing bestowed on Hagar by God. If you do, please produce it.

In the meantime, the subject of this thread is whether it was Isaac or Ishmael who accompanied Abraham to Mount Moriah to be sacrificed. Scripture is clear that it was Isaac. Muslims dispute that because the Quran is silent on the matter.

Since the Muslims on this thread have admitted that the Scriptures are not corrupt, and since the early hadith and early Muslim scholars agree with the Scriptures, then it seems self evident that it was Isaac and not Ishmael whom Abraham brought to Mt. Moriah for the purpose of sacrifice.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[planter654]

Jesus said so:
John 4 22 You adore that which you know not: we adore that which we know; for salvation is of the Jews.

Yes.
Jeremias 44
1 The word that came to Jeremias, concerning all the Jews that dwelt in the land of Egypt, dwelling in Magdal, and in Taphnis, and in Memphis, and in the land of Phatures, saying:

Sincerely,

De Maria

Thank you De Maria for your answer in correcting me I remember about that statement made now our salvation comes from the Jews. sorry typed before I thought. Thank You again. And I was going off topic. Thank You again

God Bless

 

[Catholic_Dude]

There were Jews that reverted to islam and they kept teaching what they knew. They are not scholars . The proof from islam that it was ishmael was a hadeeth from the prophet muhammed that stated clearly that it was ishmael and not isac . Whomever of the Muslims have heared that hadeeth state it was ishmael . Whomever didnt just say what he knows if he was a former jew or christian , which is basicly that it was Isaac. Taht is why some of you will think that early on it was said it was isac and then some one said it was Ishmael . Its a matter of who heared of the tradition that was said by the prophet muhammed and who didnt .

Is there really a historical decree by Mohammed that it was Ishmael?

Why hasnt this been quoted yet? That should settle this issue.

The issue is not central to Islam and has no theology based on it. However it is a matter of truth to be told.

It is a central issue in so far as if it is true that means the Bible and Quran contradict.

eben when you look it from the bible point of view . you will find clearly that it is talking about abrahams only son . **there was no ‘‘Only’’ son except ishmael **. Simply because ishmael was born first .

31: "He said, “Now take your son, your **only **son, whom you love, even Isaac, and go into the land of Moriah. Offer him there for a burnt offering on one of the mountains which I will tell you of.” "

How can you say the “only son” is not Isaac in that verse when it mentions him explicitly?

He is called the “only son” because Ishmael did not have inheritance in Abraham’s property and promises but Isaac did.

38: "He said, “Don’t lay your hand on the boy, neither do anything to him. For now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your **only **son, from me.” "

You cant quote scripture like this and ignore the context, the verses around this quote are explicitly clear it was Isaac.

10: "The angel of Yahweh said to her, "Behold, you are with child, and will bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, because Yahweh has heard your affliction. "

11: "Hagar bore **a son **for Abram. Abram called the name of his son, whom Hagar bore, Ishmael

14: "Abraham took Ishmael his son, all who were born in his house, and all who were bought with his money; every male among the men of Abraham’s house, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the same day, as God had said to him. "

16: "In the same day both Abraham and Ishmael, his son, were circumcised. "

You are jumping around taking single quotes from different chapters. You quoted first from ch 22 in regards to the sacrifice and from chapters 16-17 when you quoted the passages about Ishmael. A lot changed from chapter 16 to chapter 22.

Abraham had an only son once. It was Ishmael.

That is not what the Bible is saying. The “only son” is in reference to Isaac being the only true and rightful heir of Abraham. That is precisely why the Scriptures, Prophets and Messiah came through Isaac’s family line.