Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?

[Catholic_Dude]

It is because the christians had amended the bible OT and haphazardly inserted the name of ISSAC in place of Ishmael (or even there was no name at all), they wrote the word Issac without thinking any thing. It does not fit there for the only son. Issac was never the only son of Abraham.

It is an undisputed fact that all the Prophets, Scriptures and Messiah came through Isaac’s lineage. Thus to say this was invented by Christians/Jews is weak because clearly Isaac was blessed in a way very very different from Ishmael whom is not heard of for hundreds of years.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

It looks like InJesus and De Maria already covered what I just said in my last few posts.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

May I ask and also correct (nicely please) me for I am “asking” Your statement that …clearly the Scriptures, Prophets and Messiah come through the Jews. But I question the words come through the Jews. Jacob is renamed “Israel” the “apple of God’s” eye right? So Israel his children the 10 tribes of Israel were Israelites were they not. Children of Israel. They were Hebrews like Jesus were they not at that time not Jews but Hebrew Israelites, right or wrong I stand to be corrected. Moses was a Hebrew was he not, was Moses mother not a Hebrew slave to the Egyptions? But do we not all become Israelites for we come now from the seed of Abraham through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior all who believe?

Like I am born in Canada, I am Canadian but I am, French and a Catholic.

Is the name Jew in the OT?

God Bless

Im not quite sure what you are asking. What I mean when I say that the “Scriptures, Prophets, and Messiah (Jesus) came through the Jews” what I am saying is that the the people who came from Isaac’s lineage are the same people whom God told to write the Old Testament Scriptures (Genesis, Exodus, etc) and whom God chose Prophets (Samuel, David, Isaiah, etc) and from David’s family line would come the Messiah (Jesus) and Apostles. These were given to the Jews so that the Jews could learn them and teach the rest of the world (the Gentiles) how to live.

God did not raise up Scriptures, Prophets or a Messiah from Ishmael’s family and lineage, that is an undisputed historical fact.

 

[planten]

There are several different narrations of the Hadith, and they don’t all agree.

The story in the Koran is very brief and incomplete. The more complete account is given in the Bible. See chapters 15 to 18 and 21 to 22 of the book of Genesis.

That sounds doubtful. The Arabs prior to Islam were pagans. They worshiped idols. The Ka’ba was a house of idols, before Mohamed cleared it of its idols and turned it into a house of God. Why would the pagan Arabs celebrate an event associated with the worship of the one God Allah?

zerinus

**It needed reply. The story in Quran is brief. Quran does not describe relations and ages too much and the length of cloth and pillars and to be made of brass or gold and how they should wear it… It is more concerned with real matters of the faith.

The Arabs were pagans before the prophet came. But Abraham and Ishmael were not pagans. They had built the first house of worship in Arabia for the worship of One God. Ishmael was left there for the upkeep of that house (Ka’abah).

Later the generation of Abraham spread all over Arabia and they had taken to idol worship (became pagans). But they still had the traditions intact. That is Hajj and Sacrifice and Circumcision and going around the house of worship. They were doing all that even before the prophet Muhammad arrived. They were very strict on those things.

All of Arabia believed in those religious rites but each tribe had own god. But Hajj was common and so was the house. They all knew themselves to be children of Abarham and Ishmael.

I hope I have answered the questions. If we look at the history of the children of Jacob ( as described in the OT), we see how many times thy reverted back to worship of idols. It happens like that. Please remember that all the prophets of God came in the children of ISRAEL (Jacob). No prophet ever came in the children of Ishamel. That was a long time without guidance. Muhammad arrived in the 50th generation after Abraham.**

 

[Valke2]

There’s a nice Midrash in the Talmud about this. I’m quoting from memory.

God said to Abraham, “Take your son”
Abraham said, “I have two sons”

God said “Your only son”
Abraham said "I have an only son with Hagar and an only son with Sara

God said “the son you love”
Abraham said “I love both”

God said “your son Isaac”

 

[inJESUS]

There’s a nice Midrash in the Talmud about this. I’m quoting from memory.

God said to Abraham, “Take your son”
Abraham said, “I have two sons”

God said “Your only son”
Abraham said "I have an only son with Hagar and an only son with Sara

God said “the son you love”
Abraham said “I love both”

God said “your son Isaac”

 

[planten]

Love, Love, Love,…
H A P P Y N E W Y E A R 2 0 0 8

 

[Catholic_Dude]

There’s a nice Midrash in the Talmud about this. I’m quoting from memory.

God said to Abraham, “Take your son”
Abraham said, “I have two sons”

God said “Your only son”
Abraham said "I have an only son with Hagar and an only son with Sara

God said “the son you love”
Abraham said “I love both”

God said “your son Isaac”

LOL!

 

[De_Maria]

Love, Love, Love,…

   H A P P Y     N E W    Y E A R    2 0 0 8

And to you also.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[meedo]

There’s a nice Midrash in the Talmud about this. I’m quoting from memory.

God said to Abraham, “Take your son”
Abraham said, “I have two sons”

God said “Your only son”
Abraham said "I have an only son with Hagar and an only son with Sara

God said “the son you love”
Abraham said “I love both”

God said “your son Isaac”

Seems to me that this God had no clue what he was doing.

 

[Valke2]

A Midrash is a story, the purpose for which is not to be factual in the telling, but to make a point to highlight something about Judaism. The point of this one being that Abraham loved and cherished both children.

 

[hamba2han]

The Qur’an asks the ‘People of the Book (Scripture)’ quite a few questions and among them are the following which concerns Prophet Abraham (pbuh):

Al-Qur’an, 003.064-071
Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him).
O People of the Scripture! Why will ye argue about Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Have ye then no sense?
Lo! ye are those who argue about that whereof ye have some knowledge: Why then argue ye concerning that whereof ye have no knowledge? Allah knoweth. Ye know not.
Abraham was not a Jew, nor yet a Christian; but he was an upright man who had surrendered (to Allah), and he was not of the idolaters.
Lo! those of mankind who have the best claim to Abraham are those who followed him, and this Prophet and those who believe (with him); and Allah is the Protecting Guardian of the believers.
A party of the People of the Scripture long to make you go astray; and they make none to go astray except themselves, but they perceive not.
O People of the Scripture! Why disbelieve ye in the revelations of Allah, when ye (yourselves) bear witness (to their truth)?
O People of the Scripture! Why confound ye truth with falsehood and knowingly conceal the truth?

 

[De_Maria]

The Qur’an asks the ‘People of the Book (Scripture)’ quite a few questions and among them are the following which concerns Prophet Abraham (pbuh):

First of all, in describing Christians as People of the Book, the Quran errs. We are people of the Word of God, which we pass on in Tradition and Scripture. Apparently either Allah or Mohammed did not know this little detail. Take your pick.

Al-Qur’an, 003.064-071

Say: O People of the Scripture!

**

Ditto as above. We are not People of the Scripture but People of the Word of God. Even People of the Church would have been a better description than that which was used by Mohammed.

Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him).

We don’t need to come to an agreement with Muslims to worship God as God wants to be worshipped. We already do so.

And if we came to an agreement with Muslims in contradiction to the Word of God, we would abandon our Lord and our God, Jesus Christ.

O People of the Scripture! Why will ye argue about Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Have ye then no sense?
Lo! ye are those who argue about that whereof ye have some knowledge: Why then argue ye concerning that whereof ye have no knowledge?

We have the true knowledge of God as revealed by Jesus in the final and most complete Revelation that will ever take place. Any new revelation, such as the one by Mohammed is simply false.

Allah knoweth. Ye know not.
Abraham was not a Jew, nor yet a Christian; but he was an upright man who had surrendered (to Allah), and he was not of the idolaters.

Correct. Mohammed got that right. But he got that from the Hebrews or the Christians of the time. He may even have read it in the Bible but not necessarily so, since the Quran is clear that knowledgeable Christians and Jews existed in that time which may have informed him.

Lo! those of mankind who have the best claim to Abraham are those who followed him, and this Prophet and those who believe (with him); and Allah is the Protecting Guardian of the believers.

That would describe every Hebrew Prophet up to Jesus. No other Revelation came after that. Except visions which confirm the New Testament. And the Quran does not fit that description since it contradicts Jesus Revelation.

A party of the People of the Scripture long to make you go astray; and they make none to go astray except themselves, but they perceive not.
O People of the Scripture! Why disbelieve ye in the revelations of Allah,

We believe the Revelations of Allah (God) in the Old Testament and the New Testament. We disbelieve the alleged revelation of Mohammed in the Quran because:

1. There is no evidence that Mohammed saw anything Supernatural.
2. Mohammed could not confirm his revelation with miracles.
3. Mohammed could not confirm his revelation by foretelling future events.
4. The Quran has too many internal inconsistencies and errors.
5. The Quran contains too many historical, scientific and theological errors.
6. The Quran contradicts the previous Scriptures which it claims to verify.
7. The Quran upholds lying and other moral problems.

when ye (yourselves) bear witness (to their truth)?

We bear witness of the truth of the OT and the NT. The Quran contradicts that truth.

O People of the Scripture! Why confound ye truth with falsehood and knowingly conceal the truth?

**
**We don’t. Either Mohammed or Uthman did that. And Muslims have followed their example from then on? Why do Muslims confound themselves and conceal the truth?

Sincerely,

De Maria
**

 

[hamba2han]

First of all, in describing Christians as People of the Book, the Quran errs. We are people of the Word of God, which we pass on in Tradition and Scripture. Apparently either Allah or Mohammed did not know this little detail. Take your pick.

The word ‘Bible’ comes from the Greek ‘biblios, βίβλιος’ which means ‘book’.

Since the Bible is the scripture of Christians and Jews, is it inaccurate then to refer to them as ‘People of the Book’?

We believe the Revelations of Allah (God) in the Old Testament and the New Testament. We disbelieve the alleged revelation of Mohammed in the Quran because:

1. There is no evidence that Mohammed saw anything Supernatural. → (X) False
2. Mohammed could not confirm his revelation with miracles. → (X) False
3. Mohammed could not confirm his revelation by foretelling future events. → (X) False
4. The Quran has too many internal inconsistencies and errors. → (X) False
5. The Quran contains too many historical, scientific and theological errors. → (X) False
6. The Quran contradicts the previous Scriptures which it claims to verify. → (X) False
7. The Quran upholds lying and other moral problems. → (X) False

In other word, your beliefs are based on total falsehoods.

 

[De_Maria]

The word ‘Bible’ comes from the Greek ‘biblios, βίβλιος’ which means ‘book’.

Since the Bible is the scripture of Christians and Jews, is it inaccurate then to refer to them as ‘People of the Book’?

Yes.

**108 **Still, the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book.” Christianity is the religion of the “Word” of God, a word which is “not a written and mute word, but the Word which is incarnate and living”. If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, “open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures.”

Your faith is completely based on YOUR interpretation of the Quran. Therefore, you are People of the Book. We are not. But Mohammed didn’t know that, did he? Or was it Allah that described us incorrectly? Because although there is one subset of Christians that can be described as people of the book, the Protestants. They didn’t yet exist in Mohammed’s time.

1. There is no evidence that Mohammed saw anything Supernatural. → (X) False

Provide the evidence. Who saw the angel besides Mohammed? Who heard Allah speaking to Mohammed?

1. Mohammed could not confirm his revelation with miracles. → (X) False

Again, provide the evidence. Even the Quran says the Mohammed was only a messenger.

1. Mohammed could not confirm his revelation by foretelling future events. → (X) False

Again, provide the evidence. There is no prophecy of Mohammed which can’t be explained by chance or coincidence.

1. The Quran has too many internal inconsistencies and errors. → (X) False

Thats been proven over and over by many on this forum.

1. The Quran contains too many historical, scientific and theological errors. → (X) False

I’ll mention just one. The Quran teaches that the world is flat.

1. The Quran contradicts the previous Scriptures which it claims to verify. → (X) False

Again, there are many, but I’ll mention just one instance. The Quran says that Jesus is not the Son of God.

1. The Quran upholds lying and other moral problems. → (X) False

I believe the doctrine is called Al Qatiyya.

In other word, your beliefs are based on total falsehoods.

**I’m afraid it is your beliefs that are based on complete falsehood.

My beliefs are based on the teachings of Truth Incarnate, Jesus Christ.

I’m looking forward to seeing what proof you provide for your claims that anyone saw the angel or Allah speak to Mohammed when I come back in eight days. God willing of course. In the meantime, I’m sure the gang here can give you a lesson in true evidence, logic and history.

Sincerely,

De Maria
**

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Just so things dont go off topic, the phrase “People of the Book” means Christians and the Bible. There is nothing wrong with that phrase and there should be no dispute on that issue.

 

[inJESUS]

Just so things dont go off topic, the phrase “People of the Book” means Christians and the Bible.

to Muslims, not to Christians …thats DeMaria\s point.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Luke 20:37
Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Jesus clearly beleived it was Isaac, not Ishmael.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

to Muslims, not to Christians …thats DeMaria\s point.

 

[zerinus]

Just so things dont go off topic, the phrase “People of the Book” means Christians and the Bible. There is nothing wrong with that phrase and there should be no dispute on that issue.

In the Koran by the “people of the book” is meant the Jews and Christians (and Moslems). “The book” here refers to the volumes of scripture that each was given, the OT for Jews, NT for Christians (and Koran for Moslems).

zerinus