Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?

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Valke2 said:
A Midrash is a story, the purpose for which is not to be factual in the telling, but to make a point to highlight something about Judaism. The point of this one being that Abraham loved and cherished both children.
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Thanks for the explanation.
 
zerinus said:
In the Koran by the “people of the book” is meant the Jews and Christians (and Moslems). “The book” here refers to the volumes of scripture that each was given, the OT for Jews, NT for Christians (and Koran for Moslems).

zerinus
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**That is correct. Quran does not call the Christians and Jews as kaafirs or Mushrik. It calls them respectably, in a different category, i.e. People of the Book, which means the people who had been given a book.

The christians do not believe that Quran is a revealed book. That could create many problems. While we agree that Jesus was given a book, the christians normally do not believe that muhammad was given a book from God.

The problems:
Disbelief in Jesus and Mary and possibly Moses too. We believe in John the baptist and Jesus only because the quran has told us about them. If Quran is wrong then there is no Jesus and Mary and JTB and Moses for us at least. What do you say?? Shall we deny them outright?? On your advice?? We may never discuss anything related to Jesus.**
 
Planten,
Can you PLEASE fix the size of your font, it hurts my eyes 🤓, and im sure im not the only one who thinks so.
Thanks
 
Yes Planten,

Please fix the size of our fonts. I am contacting FBI and CIA for your address now, so I can charge you for the cost of my new glasses, including VAT.😃 😃 Just Kidding:D .
 
Daniel_Marsh said:
Luke 20:37
Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Jesus clearly beleived it was Isaac, not Ishmael.
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D M, Jesus never believed that it was Issac who was sacrificed. Can you show me any proof please?/ Did Jesus himself say any such thing?? please produce the words of Jesus. Thanks
 
planten said:
**That is correct. Quran does not call the Christians and Jews as kaafirs or Mushrik. It calls them respectably, in a different category, i.e. People of the Book, which means the people who had been given a book.

The christians do not believe that Quran is a revealed book. That could create many problems. While we agree that Jesus was given a book, the christians normally do not believe that muhammad was given a book from God.

The problems:
Disbelief in Jesus and Mary and possibly Moses too. We believe in John the baptist and Jesus only because the quran has told us about them. If Quran is wrong then there is no Jesus and Mary and JTB and Moses for us at least. What do you say?? Shall we deny them outright?? On your advice?? We may never discuss anything related to Jesus.**
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The Koran is a good book. It may have even been (in its original form) an inspired book. But in its current form, the contradictions between it and Christian theology are extremely serious. I mean EXTREMELY serious. I don’t think that the Moslems realize just how serious it is, because they have little appreciation of Christian doctrine. The doctrines of the divinity of Jesus Christ, that He was the son of God, that He died and was resurrected, and that He atoned for the sins of the world are ABSOLUTELY central to the Christian religion. Without them Christianity is destroyed. As long as the Koran denies these things, there can be no theological reconciliation between Christianity and Islam. But I don’t dispute that Islam is a great world religion, and has had a great history behind it, and we can learn a lot from each other’s cultural heritage and history.

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
The Koran is a good book. It may have even been (in its original form) an inspired book. But in its current form, the contradictions between it and Christian theology are extremely serious. I mean EXTREMELY serious. I don’t think that the Moslems realize just how serious it is, because they have little appreciation of Christian doctrine. The doctrines of the divinity of Jesus Christ, that He was the son of God, that He died and was resurrected, and that He atoned for the sins of the world are ABSOLUTELY central to the Christian religion. Without them Christianity is destroyed. As long as the Koran denies these things, there can be no theological reconciliation between Christianity and Islam. But I don’t dispute that Islam is a great world religion, and has had a great history behind it, and we can learn a lot from each other’s cultural heritage and history.

zerinus
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It is good of you to think like that. But religion is not just making some one God or dying and getting up. It is also not to forgive and forget the sins of people or to make every one a sinner.

I do not know much but I expect that the Jews also do not believe in any of the things that you have just pointed out as the main pillars of christianity. i.e. Trinity, resurrection etc. I don’t know what the Jews say about the original sin and every born person being a sinner.

Religion is much more than that. It is more to do with spiritual matters. Religion is coming from very long time from the Jewish people. It did not originate with christianity. It is a continous process. It cannot suddenly change colors and reverse everything. We have no problem in believing that Jesus was a prophet of God, that he was given bible. All prophets are truthful and every nation had a prophet/ messenger from God.
 
Planten,
it does not matter what Jews now believe in that opposes Christianity since they do not believe in Jesus and exactly called his teachings blashphemy. Jesus fulfills the previous scriptures so yes it is a process fulfilled, what did Muhammad fulfill according to both OT and NT? nothing, he opposed both.

As to being born sinner and the points you raised, dont you think its better to understand them first?

regarding making someone else, no, we do not make the word of God God, because the word of God is God before we even exist.
 
inJESUS said:
Planten,
it does not matter what Jews now believe in that opposes Christianity since they do not believe in Jesus and exactly called his teachings blashphemy. Jesus fulfills the previous scriptures so yes it is a process fulfilled, what did Muhammad fulfill according to both OT and NT? nothing, he opposed both.

As to being born sinner and the points you raised, dont you think its better to understand them first?

regarding making someone else, no, we do not make the word of God God, because the word of God is God before we even exist.
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Why it does not matter. It mattered all the time, even when Jesus was preaching. It matters now too. The Jews have a religion and because your religion is emanating from the Jews, because Jesus himself was a Jew, his mother Mary was a Jewess and all disciples (except perhaps John) were Jews. The christionas are keeping attachment with the OT. So it matters very much as how church can take a totally different line from the Jewish religion in the matter of Trinity etc.

In this present topic, I was very interested in finding out if Jesus ever discussed Ishmael or Issac and did he tell who was the sacrificed son of Abraham.

This is a Catholic answers forum. So Catholics should please answer the questions.
 
planten said:
Why it does not matter. It mattered all the time, even when Jesus was preaching.

i will tell you why it does not matter what Jews believe now.
the first Christians were Jews. These Jews, because of Jesus, became Christians and held different beliefs yet there remained a portion of Jews who did not believe in Jesus, and hence they are still Jews.

that’s number 1.

Number 2, Jesus came to reveal about God and His plan and His New Covenant with humanity. If Jews did not even recognize their Messiah, what makes you assume they have complete knowledge of God? without the belief in Jesus, there is no Christianity and Christianity is what Jesus taught, so if Jews do not believe in Jesus, they will not believe that He is the Word incarnate, so they will not focus on the Word of God, but this does not mean that Jews do not believe that the Word of God= God. Jews simply do not believe that Jesus is the incarnate Word of God. It is a chain of belief related to who Jesus is. If they don’t believe in Jesus, of course they won’t believe in the Word that took a human flesh, neither in the New Covenant that replaces the Old one.
It matters now too. The Jews have a religion and because your religion is emanating from the Jews, because Jesus himself was a Jew, his mother Mary was a Jewess and all disciples (except perhaps John) were Jews. The christionas are keeping attachment with the OT. So it matters very much as how church can take a totally different line from the Jewish religion in the matter of Trinity etc.
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no, Jesus did not say " Isaac was the sacrificed son", in the same way He did not say " i was born to a virgin". It is the disciples who taught us this and the disciples were taught and inspired by Jesus.
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Thanks for your illuminating post. At least we know that your god (Jesus) did not tell you that it was Issac who was sacrificed. So you have to make guesses. When your god did not touch that subject then it was better for you to leave it alone. That was another good point not to talk about virginity of Mary.

If Jesus, as you said, did not talk about the virgin birth then it is sure that there was no need to publish that subject too much. How could the disciples teach that subject of virginity when according to you, they learnt it from Jesus and you also say that Jesus did not talk about it.

Jesus never said “I was born to a virgin”, that is what you have written. If he never said it then how did the disciples learn it??
 
there is no direct quotation from Jesus about His birth
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Hi

Did Jesus from the words of his mouth, ever took pride, that he was born of a virgin?

So, it is a usual exaggeration of the “apostels” or not theirs even and just ascribed to them later.

I think that is the case.

Thanks
 
Jesus never said “I was born to a virgin”
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[66:13] And sets forth as an example Mary, the daughter of Imr›n, who guarded her chastity - so We breathed into him of Our Spirit -and she fulfilled the prophecy conveyed to her in the words of her Lord contained in His Books and she was one of the obedient. .

Hi

Quran emphasizes following qualities of Mary in the above verse:
  1. She was a chaste woman.
  2. So she was selected by GodAllahYHWH to receive Word from Him or revelation that is indicated by the words” We breathed into him of Our Spirit”.
  3. This quality is further elaborated” -and she fulfilled the prophecy conveyed to her in the words of her Lord contained in His Books.”
  4. And she was one of the obedient.
So her spiritual qualities are emphasized by Quran in the verses rather the physical ones.

Thanks
 
Okay, maybe not ALL Muslims believe that necessarily, but I’m talking about the ones that do.
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

Did Jesus from the words of his mouth, ever took pride, that he was born of a virgin?
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Jesus was not really a bragger now was he. All we need to know is that he was born of a virgin, which in itself is a miracle. And to us, this miracle proves he is the son of God.
Jesus’s goal was purely to fulfill the scriptures and lead us on the right path, which he has done successfully, not to gloat about being born of a virgin.
 
dolphinlove said:
Jesus was not really a bragger now was he. All we need to know is that he was born of a virgin, which in itself is a miracle. And to us, this miracle proves he is the son of God.
Jesus’s goal was purely to fulfill the scriptures and lead us on the right path, which he has done successfully, not to gloat about being born of a virgin.
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I had asked on these pages about the miracle. Whose miracle was it i.e. the virgin birth of JESUS. What is a miracle? Miracle is related to a prophet of God. Please tell whose miracle was the virgin birth of Jesus?? Thanks.
 
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