Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?

[Valke2]

Would you please present proof of your claim from Jewish Scriptures/Jewish theology?

As far your saying “Isaac’s deed of submitting without protest”; again, in the OT, did Abraham before “sacrificing” him tell Isaac, what he was going to do with him, so that it can be deduced that Isaac did submit to God’s Will without protest? Please show us evidence from the OT.

Thanks

well, I think by the time Isaac was tied down and Abraham had the knife raised over his body, he might have become suspicious. I’ll be happy to give you some scriptual support and commentary later.

 

[De_Maria]

You mean Jews do not believe in what you really believe? Why?

As the Jewish site (that you cite as an evidence to prove a Jewish View) promotes disbelief in Jesus (“The Lamb” of NT), as such Jews don’t even believe in Jesus, then despite their such an extant of disbelif in your Trinitarian G-d, are they (Jews) saved or go to the Hell?

Aren’t you a bit off topic? The discussion is about whether the Bible teaches that Isaac or Ishmael was sacrificed, not about the eternal destiny of Jews.

Focus grasshoppa!

 

[Reuben_J]

Aren’t you a bit off topic? The discussion is about whether the Bible teaches that Isaac or Ishmael was sacrificed, not about the eternal destiny of Jews.

Focus grasshoppa!

Look like she has something to grind there.

 

[planten]

Look like she has something to grind there.

** Looks like the christians are in some kind of trouble having to answer some difficult question. Of course i do not understand head or tail of what is going on here. And I am least worried as to who will prevail (win) in the end. Please keep it up.**

 

[swariffin]

** Looks like the christians are in some kind of trouble having to answer some difficult question. Of course i do not understand head or tail of what is going on here. And I am least worried as to who will prevail (win) in the end. Please keep it up.**

No, we the Christian had a good time answering and proofing that it was Isaac who was being sacrified, not ishmael. Too bad you did not joint us earlier.

 

[Valke2]

Couple of observations on the Isaac/Ishmael thing, after re-reading the account in Torah.

It is clear that Abraham loved Ishmael and viewed him as his son (for obvious reasons). There is a point where God tells him his seed will be a great nation and through it all nations will be blessed. Abraham answers that He is happy to leave all he has to Ishmael, but God says no, Ishmael will father a big nation, but you will best be remembered through your future son, Isaac.

From a reading of Torah, there’s no evidence that Ishmael is meant to be the father of all Islam/muslims. Rather, God blesses him and makes him the father of the Ishmaelites.

Both Ishmael and Isaac bury Abraham.

When Hagar first flees Sarah, she stops at a place with a well and names it (name escapes me). God tells her to go back to Sarah. Later, Isaac ends up dwelling in the same place. AN implicit acknowledgment that all he has could have been given to Ishmael and that Ishmael was also blessed.

THere is no stigma against Ishmael and quite the opposite is stated and implied.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

From a reading of Torah, there’s no evidence that Ishmael is meant to be the father of all Islam/muslims. Rather, God blesses him and makes him the father of the Ishmaelites.

Ishmael was blessed to be a great nation too. The only identifiable great nation in that region, other than Jews, are Arabs and they are mostly Muslim I think.

 

[Valke2]

Ishmael was blessed to be a great nation too. The only identifiable great nation in that region, other than Jews, are Arabs and they are mostly Muslim I think.

Yes, he was blessed to be a great nation. THe nation of Ishmaelites. Gen. 21:13 is the blessing. Then we look to Gen. 25:13-18 for the genelogy of the Ishmaelites. That is what we presume, at any rate.

The records of Ishmael (Gen 25:13-18):

"And these are the records of Ishmael, son of Abraham, to whom Hagar, the Egyptian, Sarah’s maid, gave birth for Abraham: And these are the names of Ishmael’s sons, by their names, according to their records: Ishmael’s firstborn was Nebaioth, and Kedar and Adbeel and Mibsam and Mishma and Dumah and Massa, Hadar and Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedmah. These are they, Ishmael’s sons, and these are their names in their settlements and in their encampments, twelve chieftians by their clans. And these are the years of Ishmael’s life…

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Yes, he was blessed to be a great nation. THe nation of Ishmaelites. Gen. 21:13 is the blessing. Then we look to Gen. 25:13-18 for the genelogy of the Ishmaelites. That is what we presume, at any rate.

The records of Ishmael (Gen 25:13-18):

"And these are the records of Ishmael, son of Abraham, to whom Hagar, the Egyptian, Sarah’s maid, gave birth for Abraham: And these are the names of Ishmael’s sons, by their names, according to their records: Ishmael’s firstborn was Nebaioth, and Kedar and Adbeel and Mibsam and Mishma and Dumah and Massa, Hadar and Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedmah. These are they, Ishmael’s sons, and these are their names in their settlements and in their encampments, twelve chieftians by their clans. And these are the years of Ishmael’s life…

Who are Ishmaelites now if there is a blessing that carries on like that of Isaac’s.

 

[Valke2]

Who are Ishmaelites now if there is a blessing that carries on like that of Isaac’s.

Don’t know. The Ishmalites are last heard from in the story of Joseph. I’m not sure the blessing of Ishmael contemplated the “big nation” from his seed being eternal. Ultimately, we learn that all nations of the world will be blessed through the Abrham, Isaac, Jacob covenants. The blessing of all nations is reinforced in the covenant with Abraham, God’s promise to Isaac and God’s promise to Jacob (during the dream of the ladder).

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Don’t know. The Ishmalites are last heard from in the story of Joseph. I’m not sure the blessing of Ishmael contemplated the “big nation” from his seed being eternal. Ultimately, we learn that all nations of the world will be blessed through the Abrham, Isaac, Jacob covenants. The blessing of all nations is reinforced in the covenant with Abraham, God’s promise to Isaac and God’s promise to Jacob (during the dream of the ladder).

I’m betting they are Arabs and Islam which doesn’t reject Jesus completely, that’s what still makes them a great nation.

 

[planten]

I’m betting they are Arabs and Islam which doesn’t reject Jesus completely, that’s what still makes them a great nation.

**Yes, Muslims are better off. They believed in Abraham, Issac, jacob and his children, Moses a.s. and the prophets of the israelis, David, Soloman, zakariyah, John the baptist, Jesus. This is the teaching of Muhammad.

We Muslims did not miss any prophet of the Jewish line and in addition we believed in JTB and Jesus. All Thanks and praise be (is due) to Allah.**

 

[swariffin]

**Yes, Muslims are better off. They believed in Abraham, Issac, jacob and his children, Moses a.s. and the prophets of the israelis, David, Soloman, zakariyah, John the baptist, Jesus. This is the teaching of Muhammad.

We Muslims did not miss any prophet of the Jewish line and in addition we believed in JTB and Jesus. All Thanks and praise be (is due) to Allah.**

And yet you believe that Moses made no mistake, which in fact he did, and get punished. Be careful, otherwise you may do the same mistake that Moses did and get punished too.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

**Yes, Muslims are better off. They believed in Abraham, Issac, jacob and his children, Moses a.s. and the prophets of the israelis, David, Soloman, zakariyah, John the baptist, Jesus. This is the teaching of Muhammad.

We Muslims did not miss any prophet of the Jewish line and in addition we believed in JTB and Jesus. All Thanks and praise be (is due) to Allah.**

I’m not saying Muslims are better than Christians, Christianity and Islam both have deep flaws. But Islam doesn’t deny Jesus entirely so for that it is blessed.

 

[Valke2]

I’m not saying Muslims are better than Christians, Christianity and Islam both have deep flaws. But Islam doesn’t deny Jesus entirely so for that it is blessed.

By that logic, Judaism must also be blessed, as it does not reject many of the teachings of Christianity, as many of such teachings were based on and an interpetation of Torah. More accurately, IMO, Christianity and Isalm are blessed because they do not reject completely the teachings of Judaism and, as Hashem promised, all nations were to be blessed through the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

By that logic, Judaism must also be blessed, as it does not reject many of the teachings of Christianity, as many of such teachings were based on and an interpetation of Torah. More accurately, IMO, Christianity and Isalm are blessed because they do not reject completely the teachings of Judaism and, as Hashem promised, all nations were to be blessed through the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

I think a lot of Jews can be blessed. But Judaism in general says Jews can do whatever they want – not observe Torah, not believe in God, etc. – long as they don’t believe in Jesus.

While Christianity and Islam have more pro-Christ/pro-God ground rules, you have to at least believe in God and Jesus as Messiah, though views of Jesus are different in each.

So obviously I am thinking modern Judaism is maybe not blessed at all but pretty cursed for its position, not so much about Jesus, but about the basic need for belief in God.

 

[planten]

And yet you believe that Moses made no mistake, which in fact he did, and get punished. Be careful, otherwise you may do the same mistake that Moses did and get punished too.

**
I honestly believe that moses did not sin. Mistake is a minor matter. I believe that most of the prophets are blamed for one thing or the other in bible, even intercourse with daughters and with daughter in law. There must be some agenda to fulfil.

We do not believe in those bad things. They are not mentioned in the Quran,

I will be interested in knowing the sin of Moses, please.**

 

[FaithofAbraham]

**

I will be interested in knowing the sin of Moses, please.**

Numbers 20:8 Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.

Numbers 20:11 And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also.

Numbers 20:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

 

[planten]

Numbers 20:8 Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.

Numbers 20:11 And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also.

Numbers 20:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

**I do not see any mistake by Moses. Why he was told to take the rod? Was he to speak by the rod? He took the rod to smite the rock. It is in the Quran that Allah told moses to hit the rock with his staff (rod). The words of the bible have been changed somehow.

If the water was to come out by speaking to the rock then why did it come out by smiting the rock? Water should not have come out. Because water came out by smiting the rock, it means Moses did the right thing.

There is no mistake. Water was required, that was made available. It is not such a big mistake that God told moses to speak to the rock and he did not do it. Is it such a crime?

The verse 20:12 is quite out of place. I can show from other pages of the bible that the people of Moses refused to enter the promised land. That is why they were told that they will not enter the land. But their next generation will enter the promised land. That is written in the Quran too.

It was not the fault of MOSES at all. Can any one imagine that God will punish an entire nation for a small matter of Moses a.s. I believe that it is the bad work of the christians who want to prove that all prophets were sinners. That is why some such stories have been invented.**

 

[Valke2]

I think a lot of Jews can be blessed. But Judaism in general says Jews can do whatever they want – not observe Torah, not believe in God, etc. – long as they don’t believe in Jesus.

well, of course that’s not true.