Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?

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planten said:
I do not see any mistake by Moses. Why he was told to take the rod? Was he to speak by the rod? He took the rod to smite the rock. It is in the Quran that Allah told moses to hit the rock with his staff (rod). The words of the bible have been changed somehow.

If the water was to come out by speaking to the rock then why did it come out by smiting the rock? Water should not have come out. Because water came out by smiting the rock, it means Moses did the right thing.

There is no mistake. Water was required, that was made available. It is not such a big mistake that God told moses to speak to the rock and he did not do it. Is it such a crime?
The verse 20:12 is quite out of place. I can show from other pages of the bible that the people of Moses refused to enter the promised land. That is why they were told that they will not enter the land. But their next generation will enter the promised land. That is written in the Quran too.

It was not the fault of MOSES at all. Can any one imagine that God will punish an entire nation for a small matter of Moses a.s. I believe that it is the bad work of the christians who want to prove that all prophets were sinners. That is why some such stories have been invented.
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Dear Planten,

Do you believe that Muhammad commited no sin? Phophets are also human. Prophets can not convey messages other that what is coming from God. When a prophet made a mistake, there will be a consequence to that. The story of Moses were originally come from the Jews anyway. The sin of Moses was making people think that Moses was the one who provided water. It was God who did that through Moses. Therefore, the sin of Moses did was robbing God’s right to be thanked to by the people.

I don’t understand your logic in the sentences I bolded. Necessity to maintain/defend life does not mean that you can disobey the law of God. That is the mistake that some irresponsible muslims did in many suicide bombings, i.e Robbing the right of God. How can you be submissive to God, but you take your own way when you are doing something? Off course, we the christian believe that eventhough God punished Moses by not been able to enter the promised land here on earth, God forgives and allows Moses to enter the promised land on heaven.

I question why you think the bible has changed somehow. Your Quran came from Uthman instead of Muhammad, and Uthman burned the original proof. Humanly speaking it was a destruction of evidence.
 
The error in your post, like so many of your posts, is believing that because there are Jews who do not believe in God, Judaism permits everything. There are Jews who don’t keep kosher but they can still be part of a minyan. This is in spite of the fact that they are not keeping all the comandments, not because of it.

Ultimately, we cannot define God. Judaism recognizes this simple fact and therefore no Jew is asked to explain their belief in God.

BTW, according to the 13 principles of Rambam, there is no way to be a Jew and not believe in God. However, it is the deeds of the Jew that we generally look at to see if they are a practicing Jew, not the beliefs.

Atheists are not denying God, some of our most prominent Rabbis have said. THey are denying one of our many images of GOd. Any definition of God can be considered a form of idolatry. SO Atheism can be viewed as positivily affecting religion by helping to earase our false image of what GOd is.
 
Valke2 said:
The error in your post, like so many of your posts, is believing that because there are Jews who do not believe in God, Judaism permits everything. There are Jews who don’t keep kosher but they can still be part of a minyan. This is in spite of the fact that they are not keeping all the comandments, not because of it.
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There are a lot of atheist Jews, that’s what Humanistic Judaism is all about.
Valke2 said:
Ultimately, we cannot define God. Judaism recognizes this simple fact and therefore no Jew is asked to explain their belief in God.
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So if I wanted to convert to Orthodox Judaism no one would ask me if I thought Jesus is God or Messiah, it just wouldn’t come up? Could I convert if I believed either if it did come up? Jews I know say you can’t.

In the same way can you convert to Judaism if you say you don’t believe in God? Jews I know have said you can, all you do is say you think God is whatever power there may be controlling the universe then you get into the club.
Valke2 said:
BTW, according to the 13 principles of Rambam, there is no way to be a Jew and not believe in God. However, it is the deeds of the Jew that we generally look at to see if they are a practicing Jew, not the beliefs.

Atheists are not denying God, some of our most prominent Rabbis have said. THey are denying one of our many images of GOd. Any definition of God can be considered a form of idolatry. SO Atheism can be viewed as positivily affecting religion by helping to earase our false image of what GOd is.
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Can a Jew who says “God does not exist” be part of a minyan?

Can a Jew who says “Jesus is God” be part of a minyan?

In my experience Jews have said yes and no respectively. What is your experience?
 
FaithofAbraham said:
There are a lot of atheist Jews, that’s what Humanistic Judaism is all about.

So if I wanted to convert to Orthodox Judaism no one would ask me if I thought Jesus is God or Messiah, it just wouldn’t come up? Could I convert if I believed either if it did come up? Jews I know say you can’t.
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I don’t believe it would come up. I don’t think one’s belief about God is asked during a conversion process. Whether this is because we assume the belief or for some other reason, I don’t know.
In the same way can you convert to Judaism if you say you don’t believe in God? Jews I know have said you can, all you do is say you think God is whatever power there may be controlling the universe then you get into the club.
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Again, I don’t believe this question would be asked, but the answer would be acceptable. The difference is that it is expressly contrary to Judaism to believe a man is God. However, it is not expreslly contrary to Judiasm to believe a man is Messiah. ANd believing that Jesus is Messiah without believing he is God, should not prevent a conversion. But as I’ve stated, this question wouldn’t come up in the first place.
Can a Jew who says “God does not exist” be part of a minyan?
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Can a Jew who says “Jesus is God” be part of a minyan?
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In my experience Jews have said yes and no respectively. What is your experience?
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In my experience, as with the experience of the vast majority of Jews, I’ve never had a Jew say “I believe Jesus is God,” let’s daven. As far as I know, however, the only requirement for a minyan is that the person is an adult jew (male if you are orthodox).
 
Valke2 said:
I don’t believe it would come up. I don’t think one’s belief about God is asked during a conversion process. Whether this is because we assume the belief or for some other reason, I don’t know.
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So is it don’t ask don’t tell? I thought they put you through the wringer before they let you convert.
Valke2 said:
Again, I don’t believe this question would be asked, but the answer would be acceptable. The difference is that it is expressly contrary to Judaism to believe a man is God. However, it is not expreslly contrary to Judiasm to believe a man is Messiah. ANd believing that Jesus is Messiah without believing he is God, should not prevent a conversion. But as I’ve stated, this question wouldn’t come up in the first place.
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I bet you $100 if I email one of the boys at torah.org and ask if I can convert while believing Jesus is just human Messiah, not God, the answer will still be no.
Valke2 said:
In my experience, as with the experience of the vast majority of Jews, I’ve never had a Jew say “I believe Jesus is God,” let’s daven. As far as I know, however, the only requirement for a minyan is that the person is an adult jew (male if you are orthodox).
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All Jews I’ve ever talked to about it says yes an atheist Jew can count, a Jesus-believing Jew can’t.
 
inJESUS:
I simply asked you a question: “are they (Jews) saved or go to the Hell?” and you answered:
inJESUS said:
none of by business.
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Jesus was a jew and died as a Jew; his disciples were jews and they too died as jews,; and you still think, it is not your business to care about their eternal fate? Are you really a Christ(Jew)-ian?
 
FaithofAbraham said:
I bet you $100 if I email one of the boys at torah.org and ask if I can convert while believing Jesus is just human Messiah, not God, the answer will still be no.
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I’ll bet you $100.00 that if he answered “no”, he would be giving you an answer that is not supported by the halacha. (I wouldn’t actually bet you as gambling is not generally permitted and I’m sure betting on Halacha is frowned upon 🙂 )
 
Here’s a Q&A I found on Torah.org Since almost no one ever asks “If I believe Jesus was the Messiah but not God…” , this was the closest I could get:

Q:Do you cast away Jews who have confessed their receiving and worshipping Jesus as their newly found Lord and Master? What do Jews feel about Jews for Jesus and Messianic Jews?

A: It should first be noted that Jewish law acknowledges the Jewish status of anyone who was born of a Jewish mother or who legally converted, even though he may have joined another faith. He is still legally a Jew, and God hopes eagerly for this errant son to return to the true faith of his forefathers. (Ezekiel 18:31-32).

Judaism regards the belief in a deity other than God as being akin to idolatry. A cursory glance at any part of the Bible will show that Judaism has a very negative attitude towards idolatry, and by extension, to any belief that a human being is a god.

A Jew who has abandoned his people and joined a non-Jewish religion, is called a heretic by Jewish Law and has forfeited his share in the World to Come. Jewish Custom calls upon the parents of this apostate to sit in mourning for a week, as for a child who has passed away. In fact, when Christianity as a religion was young and undistinguishable as a separate religion, the Rabbis inserted a blessing in the liturgy condemning any Jew who was a member of this Christian sect, these ancient “Jews for Jesus”.

God hopes eagerly for this errant son to return to the true faith of his forefathers and thereby reclaim his share in the life of the World to Come.
 
I’ve also posted the question you asked in Torah.org. I’ll post the answer here when it arrives. Should be within a week.
 
karens1234 said:
inJESUS:
I simply asked you a question: “are they (Jews) saved or go to the Hell?” and you answered:

Jesus was a jew and died as a Jew; his disciples were jews and they too died as jews,; and you still think, it is not your business to care about their eternal fate? Are you really a Christ(Jew)-ian?
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caring about their eternal fate is one thing, and deciding it is another thing. I care but its none of my business what will happen to people since God did not appoint me a judge over their fate.
 
FaithofAbraham said:
I bet you $100 if I email one of the boys at torah.org and ask if I can convert while believing Jesus is just human Messiah, not God, the answer will still be no.

yet you always say Jews reject Jesus because we say He is divine.🤷 and i kept telling you no this is not true, and here you are saying what i’ve been saying all along 🤷
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I got the reply. I’m grateful for two things. 1 that I didn’t bet. 2. That after further reflection, I agree with the response:

No. The person referred to as Jesus who lived about 2000 years ago did
not fulfill the prophecies about Moshiach. Therefore, belief in him is
belief in a false prophet, which runs counter to Judaism.

My confusion was in the fact that it is not counter to Judaism to mistakenly believe someone is the Moshiach. For example, Rabbi Akiva believed Bar Kochba was the Moshiach. He was proven wrong. That doesn’t mean he held a belief counter to Judaism.

However, as Judaism has established that Jesus is a false, or if you prefer, failed prophet, it would be counter to Judaism to announce today that one believes Jesus was Moshiach. Just as it would be to announce today that one believed Ben Korchba was Moshiach.
 
Valke2 said:
I got the reply. I’m grateful for two things. 1 that I didn’t bet. 2. That after further reflection, I agree with the response:

No. The person referred to as Jesus who lived about 2000 years ago did
not fulfill the prophecies about Moshiach. Therefore, belief in him is
belief in a false prophet, which runs counter to Judaism.

My confusion was in the fact that it is not counter to Judaism to mistakenly believe someone is the Moshiach. For example, Rabbi Akiva believed Bar Kochba was the Moshiach. He was proven wrong. That doesn’t mean he held a belief counter to Judaism.

However, as Judaism has established that Jesus is a false, or if you prefer, failed prophet, it would be counter to Judaism to announce today that one believes Jesus was Moshiach. Just as it would be to announce today that one believed Ben Korchba was Moshiach.
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Ok thanks. I wish you would have also asked if someone could convert if they believed Rebbe is Messiah, I wonder if you would get a different answer.
 
inJESUS said:
yet you said in previous posts that the divinity of Jesus is the stumbling block to Jews 🤷
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It is one hindrance to a lot of them. Some might be able to see that Jesus could still fulfill Messianic prophecy if he was willingly killed by God, not stopped against his will by man thus failed and discouraged…

…if not for the deity aspect, we’ve all been indoctrinated to see the NT only in that way, with John 1:1 being pounded into our heads like a chant over and over and over again.

A few like me slip past it and find a Jesus that is not mysterious, just plain and simple for the common man, but many others just throw the whole confusing thing out and are done with it.
 
inJESUS said:
yet you said in previous posts that the divinity of Jesus is the stumbling block to Jews 🤷
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“I wonder why Jesus did not reveal this that the Lord thy God is three Gods in one person. We know that Jesus fears no man but tells the truth, nor regardeth any person. Matt 22:16.” — N. Tatakis (a Unitarian leader)
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inJESUS said:
caring about their eternal fate is one thing, and deciding it is another thing. I care but its none of my business what will happen to people since God did not appoint me a judge over their fate.
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So you do care about Jews. But: How and in what sense do you care about Jews? You mean:

You do **care about Jews **thus you want Jews to remain as Jews (in their Judaic/non-Catholic faith/false undertsanding of Old Testament) by still rejecting your Catholic Triune God, as such, keep them (Jews) away from your Catholic God’s mercy/salvation(since your Catholic salvation is due to believing in your Jesus (Catholic God)?

Or, You care about Jews, by inviting/forcing them to accept your Catholic Triune God, as such, bringing them (Jews) into your Catholic God’s mercy/salvation, they can be saved because your Catholic salvation is due to believing in your Jesus (Catholic God)?

Or , Jews can be still saved by your Jesus (Catholic God) despite rejecting Him/or as you understood/believe Him? If so then why there is a need to preach/propogate Catholcism, in the first place, then? Let all Jews (plus all other non-Catholic people) have/remain in their own faiths and yet be saved by your “merciful” catholic God. Why you (Catholics) have to bother yourself to Catholicised people of other faiths?

If this is not the case/scenario, then: "How and in what sense do you care about Jews?
 
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