Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?

[FaithofAbraham]

There is nothing about the sacrifice matter in the bible NT.

Sure there is.

Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

While the sons of Jacob through maidservants are being blessed, the son of Abraham through maid is denied anything and there is so much teaching against that man of God (Ishmael) that he is not even counted as a legitimate son of his father. Due to that I do not believe the bible to be holy.

That’s not true either.

Genesis 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

The first and foremost job of a religion is to be just and honest. Where is justice and honesty in those bibles? Let the neutral minds decide.

Genesis is the only thing that really gives credence to Ishmael being saved by Zamzam, too.

Revelation describes a cube-shaped dwelling of God in eternity, New Jerusalem, with Jesus as the rejected cornerstone from Heaven, and River of Life running through it.

Revelation 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

So the Kabba, the Black Stone, and the Well of Zamzam that saved Ishmael are only there as a sign for Muslims to accept the Bible as truth and the New Covenant of Jesus which saves the life of Ishmael and gives him everlasting life, the only things that really can make him a Great Nation with blessings.

Genesis 21:19 And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.

Quran 3:3 He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

 

[Valke2]

**It is not a story of winning or losing something. The whole attitude of the christians goes against the Muslims and the humanity. It is true that the Jews say it was Issac. The Muslims say it was Ishmael. So leave it at that. Leave the christians out of this matter. They are niether here nor there. There is nothing about the sacrifice matter in the bible NT. Not more than a word of some person.

About the OT, it is not a holy book. In that there is blessing through teachery and biased writings against some people, cannot be a holy book. While the sons of Jacob through maidservants are being blessed, the son of Abraham through maid is denied anything and there is so much teaching against that man of God (Ishmael) that he is not even counted as a legitimate son of his father. Due to that I do not believe the bible to be holy.

The first and foremost job of a religion is to be just and honest. Where is justice and honesty in those bibles? Let the neutral minds decide.**

I don’t see how you can’t view the Bible as just and honest. If it weren’t than the patriarchs would be without flaws. Jacob would not be shown to be a liar and a deciever in order to get his father’s blessing. Rachel, a matriarch, would not have been shown to have stolen her father’s idols/ancesteral stones (for which she is inadvertently cursed by Jacob). Esau would not have been shown as a forgiving brother and loving son.

It is beyond crystal clear that the Torah doesn’t cover up any of the warts of the protaginists. As I have stated in other posts, Ishmael is not slandered. On the contrary, Abraham acknowledges him as his son, clearly loves him, and at one point even asks God to bestow the blessing through Ishmael’s seed, which God declines. Moreover, Ishmael buries Abraham toghether with Isaac. Also, Isaac ends up staying at teh same place that Ishmael previously built a well, an implicit acknowledgment of Ishmael’s importance and all that Ishmale should have received, but didn’t.

As to first and second born, I’ve posted my thoughts on this and it is clear that the Bible teaches that what one might expect as a birth right is by no means certain.

I want to add one other observation I discovered today about 1st vs 2nd sons. The lesson that the first does not always get what the 1st thinks he’s entitled to is shown to us again and again in Genesis. The final lesson, I think, might be in the story of Tamar. Tamar’s husband dies, his brother doesn’t want her children to inherit his share, so he spills his seed on the ground, and God kills him. Judah, Tamar’s father-in-law, cheats her out of marriage to his third son (thinking that Tamar has some bad mojo going on). Tamar tricks Judah into sleeping with her. She becomes pregnant with twins.

During the birth, an arm pokes out and the midwife ties a string to it. THen it goes back in and the second baby comes out first! What clearer way to muddy the waters between the first and second born?

 

[holdencaulfield]

this is not correct.

Correct me if I’m wrong isn’t Isaac the son of Abraham and Sarah?

“Abraham gave the name Isaac to the son Sarah bore him.” (Genesis 21:3)

“for that slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac.” (Genesis 21:10)

 

[planten]

Quote:
Originally Posted by holdencaulfield
Ishmael isn’t even a legitimate son of Abraham.

this is not correct.

I am thankful to inJESUS about his post no. 275 in which he disagreed with holdencaulfield about Ishmael not being the legitimate son of Abraham. He said " this is not correct."

That should be the spirit to tell the truth and to stand by the truth and to use one’s concsience in the right way. Whether it benefits th person and his group or it does not serve the purpose, that does not matter. It is necessary to use our senses for the sake of truth.

If one will not do that then his/her senses will become dead and useless. That will be a miserable life. If I find something sensible about Jesus or christianity I readily accept it without delay. I will support it. Thanks to inJESUS again and he should please elaborate this matter of legitimate son in more detail. Just one short sentence may not be enough.

I do not want that inJESUS should say something which is not in the bible OT. Let it be from the bible OT. It should simply be about the legitimate or illegitimate son topic only. Thanks. Let the other friends also give their opinion about the way Ishmael was concieved and tell whether he was the legitimate son of Abraham or not.

 

[swariffin]

Dear Planten,

It is clear that Abraham loves Ishmael too, even God will not let Ishmael to die. Indeed Ishmael was Abraham’s son biologically. So, at de facto, Ishmael was the son of Abraham. But, as the status of Hagar (Ishmael’s mother) was never legally married by Abraham in accordance to their tradition at that time, then on de jure, Ishmael was not a legitimate son. The tradition at that time allows a women slave to be used as a special purpose vehicle to get offsprings or even just to sleep with. Of course, such practice is no longer valid in our current civilization.

 

[planten]

Dear Planten,

It is clear that Abraham loves Ishmael too, even God will not let Ishmael to die. Indeed Ishmael was Abraham’s son biologically. So, at de facto, Ishmael was the son of Abraham. But, as the status of Hagar (Ishmael’s mother) was never legally married by Abraham in accordance to their tradition at that time, then on de jure, Ishmael was not a legitimate son. The tradition at that time allows a women slave to be used as a special purpose vehicle to get offsprings or even just to sleep with. Of course, such practice is no longer valid in our current civilization.

I am surprised. Ishmael was the son of Abraham. He was not the legitimate son of Abraham. It means Abraham was producing illegitimate children. He was doing something illegitimate, illegal??.

How do you know what were the customs for marriage in those days? You mean that the four children produced by Jacob were illegitimate?? Already, I have thanked one member who did not agree that Ishmael was illegitimate son of Abraham. But I see that it is inherent teaching of the church that Ishmael should not be considered the legitimate son of Abraham.

We will very soon find out which is the legitimate book. You know very well that Sarai did not give Hagar to Abraham to just sleep with her. No. She had failed to produse a child and the man was getting old. In helpless and desperate condition, Sarai offered Hagar to Abraham. That was a legal move. Nothing illegal in that. Please can you not understand? What you are saying is bad. It puts blame on Abraham and sarai too and on the book bible too. On Sarai because she was a witness to the illegal act.

I do not understand the teachings of the bible from the christians.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I am surprised. Ishmael was the son of Abraham. He was not the legitimate son of Abraham. It means Abraham was producing illegitimate children. He was doing something illegitimate, illegal??.

How do you know what were the customs for marriage in those days? You mean that the four children produced by Jacob were illegitimate?? Already, I have thanked one member who did not agree that Ishmael was illegitimate son of Abraham. But I see that it is inherent teaching of the church that Ishmael should not be considered the legitimate son of Abraham.

We will very soon find out which is the legitimate book. You know very well that Sarai did not give Hagar to Abraham to just sleep with her. No. She had failed to produse a child and the man was getting old. In helpless and desperate condition, Sarai offered Hagar to Abraham. That was a legal move. Nothing illegal in that. Please can you not understand? What you are saying is bad. It puts blame on Abraham and sarai too and on the book bible too. On Sarai because she was a witness to the illegal act.

I do not understand the teachings of the bible from the christians.

Just ignore all that. Isaac would be the one for Jesus the Messiah to come through, that’s the most important point. Then as Messiah, Jesus can gather Ishmael and all the Gentiles to God to share in Abraham’s covenant.

Muslims will never get the big picture unless they read the Bible to understand what Messiah is all about, Messiah is the one who gives Ishmael a drink from the River of Life to save him, which is symbolized by Zamzam in the prophecy.

 

[Reuben_J]

…
Messiah is the one who gives Ishmael a drink from the River of Life to save him, which is symbolized by Zamzam in the prophecy.

Again, this is pure conjecture and speculation on your part. Just your personal opinion not back by any shred of evidence. I don’t know how you can keep on saying things like this. Perhaps it makes you feel good, but believe me, nobody is going to listen to all that trash.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Again, this is pure conjecture and speculation on your part. Just your personal opinion not back by any shred of evidence. I don’t know how you can keep on saying things like this. Perhaps it makes you feel good, but believe me, nobody is going to listen to all that trash.

God saves Ishmael here:

Genesis 21:19 And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.

Jesus saves Ishmael here:

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

What’s trash about Jesus being the salvation of Ishmael? That sounds really hateful like you want Ishmael to go to Hell.

 

[planten]

Messiah is the one who gives Ishmael a drink from the River of Life to save him, which is symbolized by Zamzam in the prophecy.

We Muslims believe that Jesus is the Promised Messiah for the Jews. So that should be enough. Now talking about jesus giving the drink from zamzam to Ishmael to save him, may I ask where was Jesus then at the time of Ishmael?

My first question is about the legitimacy of ishmael and the legitimacy of the four sons of Jacob.

It is true that messiah was for the Jews and he was to come from the line of issac. We believe that too. That Jesus was the last prophet in the line of the many Israeli prophets. So it is alright. We believe that the Messiah was from the line of Issac and not from the line of Ishmael.

But the problem with the bible OT is that it is not on the right lines when discussing the relations. It is biased and unjust. Therefore not a holy book in as much as such bad things are written in it. Calling ishmael illegitimate, I would like to know if there is such a verse in the bible OT. I am sure that it is not there. So how can any one utter such a bad word thereby accusing the great man of God Abraham and sarai of misdeeds. Think over.

I would request the fellows to look up in the book if there is clear statement that Ishamel was illegal birth. If there is no such thing in your bible then do not utter such words. They are highly objectionable. It means that you are inventing your own CANON and pointing it at the Muslims and firing it.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

We Muslims believe that Jesus is the Promised Messiah for the Jews. So that should be enough. Now talking about jesus giving the drink from zamzam to Ishmael to save him, may I ask where was Jesus then at the time of Ishmael?

It was prophecy for the future salvation, God was literally there with Ishmael.

The promised Messiah for the Jews is Messiah for the whole world in all of Jewish prophecy, there isn’t another Messiah for Gentiles.

 

[swariffin]

I am surprised. Ishmael was the son of Abraham. He was not the legitimate son of Abraham. It means Abraham was producing illegitimate children. He was doing something illegitimate, illegal??.

How do you know what were the customs for marriage in those days? You mean that the four children produced by Jacob were illegitimate?? Already, I have thanked one member who did not agree that Ishmael was illegitimate son of Abraham. But I see that it is inherent teaching of the church that Ishmael should not be considered the legitimate son of Abraham.

We will very soon find out which is the legitimate book. You know very well that Sarai did not give Hagar to Abraham to just sleep with her. No. She had failed to produse a child and the man was getting old. In helpless and desperate condition, Sarai offered Hagar to Abraham. That was a legal move. Nothing illegal in that. Please can you not understand? What you are saying is bad. It puts blame on Abraham and sarai too and on the book bible too. On Sarai because she was a witness to the illegal act.

I do not understand the teachings of the bible from the christians.

Take it easy please, brother. I made my point because in Gen 16:2. It was Sara who gave her women slave to Abraham. Nothing in the bible say that Abraham married Hagar legally (according to their law and custom off course, not according to the law of the US). Legal move is OK but it did not constitute a legal marriage.

Abraham had other children (6 of them) from Kethurah. But, in Genesis 25:1 it was clearly stated that Abraham married Kethurah.

By saying illegitimate son, it does not mean that Ishmael is Haram. Please don’t have that kind of impression. I do believe based on the bible that Ishmael was not a de jure son of Abraham, but I am not saying, and I don’t have any impression that Ishmael was Haram (such as a child born out of a prostitute from her prostitution practices). Illegalilty I mean, is illegitimate on de jure basis based on human common tradition during Abraham time. It does not mean illegitimate in the eye of God at all.

 

[Preacher_Vern]

Isaac, How can the Muslims no when they don’t beleve in the word of God anyway.

 

[planten]

Take it easy please, brother. I made my point because in Gen 16:2. It was Sara who gave her women slave to Abraham. Nothing in the bible say that Abraham married Hagar legally (according to their law and custom off course, not according to the law of the US). Legal move is OK but it did not constitute a legal marriage.

Abraham had other children (6 of them) from Kethurah. But, in Genesis 25:1 it was clearly stated that Abraham married Kethurah.

By saying illegitimate son, it does not mean that Ishmael is Haram. Please don’t have that kind of impression. I do believe based on the bible that Ishmael was not a de jure son of Abraham, but I am not saying, and I don’t have any impression that Ishmael was Haram (such as a child born out of a prostitute from her prostitution practices). Illegalilty I mean, is illegitimate on de jure basis based on human common tradition during Abraham time. It does not mean illegitimate in the eye of God at all.

Swariffin, please try to understand. Your post is funny. You seem to know the customs of the time of abraham. You are relying on the English words of the bible OT such as marriage. There was no Canon at that time.

In the last sentence (It is more funny) you say that Ishamel was not illegitimate in the eye of god. But he is still illegitimate in your eyes. What a funny idea you had.

Ishmael is not illegitimate in the eye of God. But in your eyes he is illegitimate. Can you be more knowing than God? I requested you not to utter any word which is not in the bible OT. Do not use deductive, derived words of your own opinion. If bible does not say that Ishamel was illegitimate son of Abraham then you should not use those words by any means. That is a great sin. You are assuming things of great proportions. I know you have a mission behind what you are trying to say. But it will not do. It will bring bad name for the Catholics.

If such a thing is allowed then any one can discuss the illegal birth of Jesus on the forum. Will you like it?? It will be backed by general law and some logic and reasons will be derived to prove that the birth of Jesus was quite illegal. I am only giving you an example. Will you please understand? You are telling me to take it easy. I am quite comfortable and easy. But will you be easy when the illegal birth of Jesus is discussed here now. You will have no way to get out of the problem.

It is better to withdraw your bad words please before it too late.

 

[dolphinlove]

Swariffin, please try to understand. Your post is funny. You seem to know the customs of the time of abraham. You are relying on the English words of the bible OT such as marriage. There was no Canon at that time.

In the last sentence (It is more funny) you say that Ishamel was not illegitimate in the eye of god. But he is still illegitimate in your eyes. What a funny idea you had.

Ishmael is not illegitimate in the eye of God. But in your eyes he is illegitimate. Can you be more knowing than God? I requested you not to utter any word which is not in the bible OT. Do not use deductive, derived words of your own opinion. If bible does not say that Ishamel was illegitimate son of Abraham then you should not use those words by any means. That is a great sin. You are assuming things of great proportions. I know you have a mission behind what you are trying to say. But it will not do. It will bring bad name for the Catholics.

If such a thing is allowed then any one can discuss the illegal birth of Jesus on the forum. Will you like it?? It will be backed by general law and some logic and reasons will be derived to prove that the birth of Jesus was quite illegal. I am only giving you an example. Will you please understand? You are telling me to take it easy. I am quite comfortable and easy. But will you be easy when the illegal birth of Jesus is discussed here now. You will have no way to get out of the problem.

It is better to withdraw your bad words please before it too late.

swariffin withdrawal his bad words???
Sorry buddy, but did you read your post addressing him? Your conduct is not the most pleasant either now is it?

 

[planten]

Originally Posted by swariffin
Take it easy please, brother. I made my point because in Gen 16:2. It was Sara who gave her women slave to Abraham.

It was not Sarah who gave up and offered her maid to Abraham. It was the helpless lady sarai. She was not then Sarah.

Nothing in the bible say that Abraham married Hagar legally (according to their law and custom off course, not according to the law of the US). Legal move is OK but it did not constitute a legal marriage.

What law or canon was there at that time. There were no Padre to conduct the affair of marriage. There were no persons, no people except Abraham and Sarai and Hagar. The rest were all servants who had no say in any matter. So with the two persons only i.e. Abraham and sarai, how could the marriage ceremony be conducted??

By saying illegitimate son, it does not mean that Ishmael is Haram

You are a strange person. If today I say that you are an illegitimate son of your father. What will it mean to any one who hears such a report. They will understand that you are an illegitimate son but still you are not haram child?. What do you say? O.K. As you please.

I do believe based on the bible that Ishmael was not a de jure son of Abraham, but I am not saying, and I don’t have any impression that Ishmael was Haram (such as a child born out of a prostitute from her prostitution practices)

Believe as you like. I feel that you are some kind of lawyer from the time of Abraham and Sarai operating here. Are you?

 

[Valke2]

Genesis makes it perfectly clear that Ishmael is a legitimate son of Abraham. There’s nothing in the language that even attempts to imply otherwise.

 

[swariffin]

What law or canon was there at that time. There were no Padre to conduct the affair of marriage. There were no persons, no people except Abraham and Sarai and Hagar. The rest were all servants who had no say in any matter. So with the two persons only i.e. Abraham and sarai, how could the marriage ceremony be conducted??

You are a strange person. If today I say that you are an illegitimate son of your father. What will it mean to any one who hears such a report. They will understand that you are an illegitimate son but still you are not haram child?. What do you say? O.K. As you please.

Dear Planten,

So, at the time of Abraham you claim that there was no law or custom?? So, if a man sleep with any woman you call it legal marriage?? What the difference between human vs animal then?? If the bible or your quran did not mention a sharia or thorah or any law during Abraham time, it does not mean there was no law. There were kingdoms during Abraham time, do it mean that there was no laws? What a strange believe and logic you have.

Why do you think there was no other person except Abraham, Sarai and Hagar? Hagar was an Egypt slave. So, there was a kingdom called Egypt at that time. Do you think that Abraham, Sarai and Hagar lived in the middle of nowhere?

In the Chinese customs, (Hey the Chinese were there for centuries BC. As the Chinese were not mentioned in the Bible nor the Quran, it does not mean there was no chinese people, right? ) the marriage was done by the couple kneeling and bowing to God (with respect to their believe at that time), kneeling and bowing to a witness/witnesses, kneeling and bowing to each other, and serving tea to a witness/ witnesses. No Padre nor Imam needed. They put banners with Chinese writings in their homes, the walls, and the front door. They put offerings to God in an altar. And yet, it was a legitimate marriage according to the tradition. But still, such simple ceremony was still required. Don’t think ancient marriage ritual must be the same as your current practices.

Illegitimate in the eye of human law is different than illegitimate in the eye of God. God’s mind is not the same as human mind. You made that conclusion because you made God thinking in the way you do. I don’t even say Ishmael is Haram because Abraham and God indeed love him. Genesisn 22:2 The Lord said “Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac”. Ishmael indeed was born before Isaac. Why should God omitted Ishmael?

Illegitimate in the eye of human law does not necessarily be illegitimate in the eye of God. Off course Ishmael was not Haram as compared to the son born by Batsheba from David illegitimate approached to her. In David’s case, it was Haram.

BTW, the early name of Abraham was Abram, as the early name of Sarah was Sarai. The differences of names did not mean different person.

 

[swariffin]

swariffin withdrawal his bad words???
Sorry buddy, but did you read your post addressing him? Your conduct is not the most pleasant either now is it?

Dear Dolphinelove,

I do not feel offended by Planten’s posting. I know Planten was bringing his modern way of thinking into the ancient way of life of Abraham. That’s why he got upset. I don’t blame him at all.

 

[planten]

Genesis makes it perfectly clear that Ishmael is a legitimate son of Abraham. There’s nothing in the language that even attempts to imply otherwise.

but Swariffin does not seem to understand. He thinks that there was some illegal work on the part of Abraham and Sarai. It blames both the husband and the wife to have got produced an illegal child (son).