Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?

[swariffin]

but Swariffin does not seem to understand. He thinks that there was some illegal work on the part of Abraham and Sarai. It blames both the husband and the wife to have got produced an illegal child (son).

Dear Planten,

Let change the terminology from illegitimate to unconfirmed. What do you think. I still wonder why do you still insist on the legal status of Ishmael based on human law, while God has confirmed that Ishmael was legitimate in the eye of God? I do believe in the eye of God that Ishmael was indeed a legitimate son. From the bible it is clear that Ishmael had no inheritance right from Abraham. Your Quran does not even mention about Ishmael as far as I follow this thread. BTW, you have not yet respon to my posting.

 

[Reuben_J]

God saves Ishmael here:

Genesis 21:19 And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.

Jesus saves Ishmael here:

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

What’s trash about Jesus being the salvation of Ishmael? That sounds really hateful like you want Ishmael to go to Hell.

You simply concluded that the water was from ZamZam and the cornerstone was Kaabah.

Now please show me where these are mentioned in the Bible. If you are unable to show me, I’ll say what you assume is simply trash. You bash our belief with mere assumption and opinion without concrete argument, how can that be not trash?

Sorry but the verses you quoted do not tell me anything. Unless you speculate! We don’t speculate; buddy, on matters as important as belief.

Sorry if I sound hateful because I don’t hate. But if you’re sensitive about it, perhaps you can start thinking about the words you said about our belief.

Jesus brings salvation to all, not just Ishmael, but to all who believe that he died for our sin. (See John 3:16). And where do you get the idea that Ishmael was ancestor of some tribes?

For your information, the water mentioned by Jesus in Rev. in not literal water (H2O). The water mentioned was about Jesus, his Holy Spirit which gives life.

You are way wrong about the cornerstone being the Kaabah. Where do you get all this? Here where you should see it figuratively, and you didn’t. The Jews didn’t reject the Kaabah. I doubt they even knew where the Kaabah was before the advent of Islam. Therefore it must be something else, Jesus for example, who would become the cornerstone (foundation) of the new covenant.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

You simply concluded that the water was from ZamZam and the cornerstone was Kaabah.

Now please show me where these are mentioned in the Bible. If you are unable to show me, I’ll say what you assume is simply trash. You bash our belief with mere assumption and opinion without concrete argument, how can that be not trash?

Muslims say Zamzam is the well that saved Ishmael, the Black Stone is a gift from Heaven, and the Kaaba is the dwelling house of God.

If they can see those as telling them to accept Jesus in New Jerusalem giving the River of Life to children of Ishmael so they may be blessed as a Great Nation like God promised – rather than making idols of those things themselves – why would you call that trash unless you are blinded by hatred and can’t see yourself the nice signs God gave Muslims to point the way to Jesus?

 

[Reuben_J]

Muslims say Zamzam is the well that saved Ishmael, the Black Stone is a gift from Heaven, and the Kaaba is the dwelling house of God.

If they can see those as telling them to accept Jesus in New Jerusalem giving the River of Life to children of Ishmael so they may be blessed as a Great Nation like God promised – rather than making idols of those things themselves – why would you call that trash unless you are blinded by hatred and can’t see yourself the nice signs God gave Muslims to point the way to Jesus?

Look buddy, I don’t care if it is Muslims belief that Zamzam is the well that saved Ishmael, the Black Stone is a gift from Heaven, and the Kaaba is the dwelling house of God. It is your right to believe as you wish and we respect that.

But if you come here and tell us that your reference is the Bible in saying where that belief comes from, then you are way out fishing in the Arabian Desert. You don’t catch any fish there!

This is where you are perverting the Bible with your own personal interpretation which is all waste products. None of those are mentioned in the Bible unless you have been smoking too much hashish that you see some incredible visions.

As explained to you, water, river of life, are all foreshadow of the life giving Holy Spirit - the flowing river out of the temple (Ezekiel), the calling of the thirsty and the hungry (Isaiah), the calling of the weary and the heavy burden (Mathew), the water that becomes the spring of living water (John) and the verse you quoted in Revelation too.

Muslims do not accept Jesus as the source of the living water as understood in the Bible. For that, one needs to believe that He died for you and believe that He really can save you. The water that flows from his body when he was pierced with the Roman spear was the final symbol for this. Since Muslims do not believe that Jesus died, then this grace is unattainable for them.

You better stick to your own belief that Allah does not need anyone sacrifice whatsoever for a Muslim to go to paradise.

… why would you call that trash unless you are blinded by hatred and can’t see yourself the nice signs God gave Muslims to point the way to Jesus?

I am too experienced here to be taunted by your insinuation about the hatred ****. Don’t be a cry baby when you’re caught red handed stealing candy. You know that you made all this interpretation **** up only to make fun of the Biblical verses. Perhaps you wish to instil some doubt in Christian posters here, but nobody I tell you, is buying that.

For your information, I have some ex-Muslims who converted to Christians after receiving ministries and teachings in our prayer meetings. They convert because in order to accept Jesus as whom he is according to Christianity, they cannot be Muslims anymore.

Are you hinting that you want them to be Christians? Then what kind of a Muslim are you?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Look buddy, I don’t care if it is Muslims belief that Zamzam is the well that saved Ishmael, the Black Stone is a gift from Heaven, and the Kaaba is the dwelling house of God. It is your right to believe as you wish and we respect that.

But if you come here and tell us that your reference is the Bible in saying where that belief comes from, then you are way out fishing in the Arabian Desert. You don’t catch any fish there!

This is where you are perverting the Bible with your own personal interpretation which is all waste products. None of those are mentioned in the Bible unless you have been smoking too much hashish that you see some incredible visions.

As explained to you, water, river of life, are all foreshadow of the life giving Holy Spirit - the flowing river out of the temple (Ezekiel), the calling of the thirsty and the hungry (Isaiah), the calling of the weary and the heavy burden (Mathew), the water that becomes the spring of living water (John) and the verse you quoted in Revelation too.

Don’t you want children of Ishmael to be saved too?

Matthew 9:12-13 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Muslims do not accept Jesus as the source of the living water as understood in the Bible. For that, one needs to believe that He died for you and believe that He really can save you. The water that flows from his body when he was pierced with the Roman spear was the final symbol for this. Since Muslims do not believe that Jesus died, then this grace is unattainable for them.

You better stick to your own belief that Allah does not need anyone sacrifice whatsoever for a Muslim to go to paradise.

Don’t you want me to believe Jesus died so he can be made High Priest to atone for our sins?

I am too experienced here to be taunted by your insinuation about the hatred ****. Don’t be a cry baby when you’re caught red handed stealing candy. You know that you made all this interpretation **** up only to make fun of the Biblical verses. Perhaps you wish to instil some doubt in Christian posters here, but nobody I tell you, is buying that.

I didn’t make anything up, the Kaaba, Zamzam, and black stone are all clear signs of Jesus and Heaven as depicted in Revelation.

For your information, I have some ex-Muslims who converted to Christians after receiving ministries and teachings in our prayer meetings. They convert because in order to accept Jesus as whom he is according to Christianity, they cannot be Muslims anymore.

Are you hinting that you want them to be Christians? Then what kind of a Muslim are you?

I’m saying they should accept the Bible, not really your interpretation of it. The Quran says to accept the Bible as truth, so that of course doesn’t prevent them from being Muslims, it makes them better Muslims.

Quran 3:3 He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

 

[Reuben_J]

Don’t you want children of Ishmael to be saved too?

Matthew 9:12-13 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

The Mt verse is about hope for sinners who can be saved by the death and resurrection of Jesus. I don’t see how this can be applied to Muslims. They don’t believe in this. You are pulling our legs. I think that’s not nice, you know.

And who are the children of Ishmael? You are merely assuming.

Don’t you want me to believe Jesus died so he can be made High Priest to atone for our sins?

If I am debating with a Muslim, this issue does not arise at all. You guys don’t believe in this. I’m sane enough to know that this is an abomination to Islam eventhough I am not a Muslim.

I didn’t make anything up, the Kaaba, Zamzam, and black stone are all clear signs of Jesus and Heaven as depicted in Revelation.

Thomas Edison can invent things but alas you’re one, I don’t have anything to say.

Where in the world that Revelation mentions this?

I’m saying they should accept the Bible, not really your interpretation of it. The Quran says to accept the Bible as truth, so that of course doesn’t prevent them from being Muslims, it makes them better Muslims.

Quran 3:3 He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

You better check this with your fellow Muslims. As far as I’m told, the ‘original’ Gospel is not in production anymore!

Good try bud, but you playing around with things that’s sacred does not endear you to anybody here.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

The Mt verse is about hope for sinners who can be saved by the death and resurrection of Jesus. I don’t see how this can be applied to Muslims. They don’t believe in this. You are pulling our legs. I think that’s not nice, you know.

If they don’t, they need to believe in it, don’t you think?

And who are the children of Ishmael? You are merely assuming.

Muslims themselves claim a spiritual father in Ishmael. Just like the Catholics claim a type of spiritual father in Peter. That’s just fact and the way it is.

If I am debating with a Muslim, this issue does not arise at all. You guys don’t believe in this. I’m sane enough to know that this is an abomination to Islam eventhough I am not a Muslim.

The Quran says Jesus is Messiah and to accept the Bible, so there in the Bible they can see that Jesus is High Priest who makes atonement when we repent. The Quran is only against the idea that Jesus died to cover your sins and you don’t have to do your own repenting, like a whipping boy.

Thomas Edison can invent things but alas you’re one, I don’t have anything to say.

Where in the world that Revelation mentions this?

The imagery is a clear sign for Muslims to turn their hearts to God and Jesus as ones to save them.

In Revelation, New Jerusalem is the home of God, shaped like a cube with Jesus the rejected cornerstone as its Temple, and a River of Life.

In Islam, the Kaaba is the home of God, shaped like a cube with a Black Stone inside sent from Heaven, and nearby the Well of Zamzam that saved Ishmael’s life.

You better check this with your fellow Muslims. As far as I’m told, the ‘original’ Gospel is not in production anymore!

Good try bud, but you playing around with things that’s sacred does not endear you to anybody here.

The Quran only says that interpretation of the Bible is corrupted with added traditions, not the words in the Bible.

 

[planten]

Reuben J
And who are the children of Ishmael? You are merely assuming.

Genesis 17:18 And Abraham said to God, “If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!”

19 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. [d] I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.

The Ishmaelis are to be here some where because it was the promise of the God for Ishmael too. He was also blessed in another land. Both the children got the blessing, one in Kanaan and the other in Arabia. There was material (land) blessing as well as the spiritual blessing.

Abraham constructed, together with Ishmael, a house for the worship of One God in Arabia. That was the first house ever made for the worship of One God. The present day synagogues, churches and mosques are only a copy of that house of worship system.

The only difference between he Ishmaeli and Israeli children was that the Ishmaelis did not have to serve under any foreign people as slaves. Also, later, when the Israeli system was about to collapse, Jesus arrived on the scene. He did his best to save the Jews but they did not listen to him. They even got ready to kill him. That was the height of their ignorance. They tried to punish the man of God, the prophet of God.

How did theydo it? How did they accomplish that mission?? It was through the local government. It was through the help of the soldiers. And they succedded in defeating Jesus and teminating his mission in a short time.

But because Ishmael was settled in the wilderness, far away from any populated, inhabited, educated country, the Arabs (Ishmaelis) did not have to face any opposition from any king or kings rule.

Abraham had a bad experience of the king’s rule in the chaldean country where he was born. He tried but could not succeed in that (his own) country and he had to migrate (to leave) that place. Another example of the bad rule of the kings was in Egypt under some pharoahs where the children of Israel suffered very much as slaves. They were the slave boys and slave girls under the Egyptians. Jesus also suffered under the Roman Emperor.

But the Ishmaelis did not suffer. Even in the time of Muhammad, there was no king nearby to catch him, like Jesus was caught. The followers of Muhammad suffered under the persecution of their own people. But did not have to face any soldiers.

That was all due to the wisdom of settling both his sons, the first born Ishmael and the second born son Issac in separate far away areas under the divine guidance.

The children of Ishmael are very much present there all over Arabia and Muhammad was born in 50th generation after Abraham from the seed of Ishmael…

 

[Reuben_J]

…

That was all due to the wisdom of settling both his sons, the first born Ishmael and the second born son Issac in separate far away areas under the divine guidance.

The children of Ishmael are very much present there all over Arabia and Muhammad was born in 50th generation after Abraham from the seed of Ishmael…

I doubt this. There is no historical proof as there is no continous historical proof to show that the present day Jews are descendants of Judah. I hate to say that as this might open another potential argument with the Jews.

Historically and academically, the 50th generation thing is a non-starter.

As for FOA, your interpretation of Revelation is way off the mark as usual. I thought I replied to you with regards to the understanding of the Biblical cornerstone and river of life. Basically they are pointing to Jesus and the Holy Spirit respectively. Talking about interpretation - the above is surely closer compared to your speculation.

Finally - salvation brought by Jesus is opened to all people, no matter who they are. And that certainly include the Arabs, and the Persians, the Indians, the Chinese, the Eskimos, and everyone at all. All they need to do is to believe that He is the Son of God who can save you, today, yesterday and forever.

The Muslim converts I told you about are recipients of Jesus mercy and forgiveness now. They experienced his healing touch and accept him. Now they find that the Islamic way of life is not compatible with their new belief in Jesus, who has become their Lord and Saviour.

I am not saying that Muslims should convert. I am saying that your proposition is not realistic. Either you are a Muslim or a Christian. The life giving water that Jesus gives is being recieved daily in an act of Christian worship in the Holy Eucharist. You have to be a Catholic in order to participate in that.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I doubt this. There is no historical proof as there is no continous historical proof to show that the present day Jews are descendants of Judah. I hate to say that as this might open another potential argument with the Jews.

Historically and academically, the 50th generation thing is a non-starter.

As for FOA, your interpretation of Revelation is way off the mark as usual. I thought I replied to you with regards to the understanding of the Biblical cornerstone and river of life. Basically they are pointing to Jesus and the Holy Spirit respectively. Talking about interpretation - the above is surely closer compared to your speculation.

Finally - salvation brought by Jesus is opened to all people, no matter who they are. And that certainly include the Arabs, and the Persians, the Indians, the Chinese, the Eskimos, and everyone at all. All they need to do is to believe that He is the Son of God who can save you, today, yesterday and forever.

The Muslim converts I told you about are recipients of Jesus mercy and forgiveness now. They experienced his healing touch and accept him. Now they find that the Islamic way of life is not compatible with their new belief in Jesus, who has become their Lord and Saviour.

I am not saying that Muslims should convert. I am saying that your proposition is not realistic. Either you are a Muslim or a Christian. The life giving water that Jesus gives is being recieved daily in an act of Christian worship in the Holy Eucharist. You have to be a Catholic in order to participate in that.

You are just misunderstanding what I’m saying. I’m saying the Kaaba is there to tell Muslims to trust in the New Jerusalem as depicted in the Bible. How can there be anything wrong with that.

I would prefer not to be any religion, Christians and Muslims have a lot of things wrong.

 

[Reuben_J]

In Islam, the Kaaba is the home of God, shaped like a cube with a Black Stone inside sent from Heaven, and nearby the Well of Zamzam that saved Ishmael’s life.

Goodness, you guys do regress. God was kept in the box in the OT and now you moved him into the black stone, to be chanted over and kissed.

You know, when Jesus died on the cross this ‘curse’ was forever broken. God isnow with us, no more to be confined in the box. When Jesus breathed his last at Calvary, it was heralded by an earthquake and the curtain in the temple was torn in two to symbolize the dismantle of the barrier between God and mankind.

God live in man’s heart for those who believe, and he is reachable anywhere on the face of the earth. No more do we need a high priest to bring offering into the holy of holies, but offering of praise can be offered to God anytime anywhere from a sincere and a humble heart.

We cannot see why Mohammad should be relevant at all in all this.

 

[Valke2]

Goodness, you guys do regress. God was kept in the box in the OT and now you moved him into the black stone, to be chanted over and kissed.

You know, when Jesus died on the cross this ‘curse’ was forever broken. God isnow with us, no more to be confined in the box. When Jesus breathed his last at Calvary, it was heralded by an earthquake and the curtain in the temple was torn in two to symbolize the dismantle of the barrier between God and mankind.

God live in man’s heart for those who believe, and he is reachable anywhere on the face of the earth. No more do we need a high priest to bring offering into the holy of holies, but offering of praise can be offered to God anytime anywhere from a sincere and a humble heart.

We cannot see why Mohammad should be relevant at all in all this.

I am sure you know that neither Judaism or Islam believes that God is confined to anywhere, least of all to a cross.

 

[planten]

My reply ro R J, God cannot be man and man cannot be God. If God cannot be confined any more:

Goodness, you guys do regress. God was kept in the box in the OT and now you moved him into the black stone, to be chanted over and kissed.

But the christians have put the God in a man. Why is that?? I do not know what are the beliefs of the present day Jews. But their previous beliefs as per the Old Testament was absolutely good and clear and it blames the christians quite well. I see that the God of the Jews as per OT is same as we Muslims have a strict monotheistic beliefs.

If Modern Jews are spoiled that I do not know. So the christians are the odds one out of line, way out of the straight path.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Goodness, you guys do regress. God was kept in the box in the OT and now you moved him into the black stone, to be chanted over and kissed.

You know, when Jesus died on the cross this ‘curse’ was forever broken. God isnow with us, no more to be confined in the box. When Jesus breathed his last at Calvary, it was heralded by an earthquake and the curtain in the temple was torn in two to symbolize the dismantle of the barrier between God and mankind.

God live in man’s heart for those who believe, and he is reachable anywhere on the face of the earth. No more do we need a high priest to bring offering into the holy of holies, but offering of praise can be offered to God anytime anywhere from a sincere and a humble heart.

We cannot see why Mohammad should be relevant at all in all this.

Yeah I’ve criticized Muslims for idolizing those things. That’s why I say they are there to point to Jesus, not to be as objects of worship themselves. You are just misunderstanding what I’m saying, I guess.

 

[swariffin]

In Islam, the Kaaba is the home of God, shaped like a cube with a Black Stone inside sent from Heaven, and nearby the Well of Zamzam that saved Ishmael’s life.

Dear FoA,

Isn’t the Black Stone located outside the Ka’baa, protected by some sort of metalic cover with a hole in which the Hajj pilgrims can kiss the stone? I don’t have any information of what is inside the Ka’baa. My Hajj grandparent could not tell me either of what is it inside the Ka’baa. He told me that not everyone is allowed to enter Ka’baa. But, everyone is required to kiss the Black Stone.

 

[swariffin]

But the christians have put the God in a man. Why is that?? I do not know what are the beliefs of the present day Jews. But their previous beliefs as per the Old Testament was absolutely good and clear and it blames the christians quite well. I see that the God of the Jews as per OT is same as we Muslims have a strict monotheistic beliefs.

If Modern Jews are spoiled that I do not know. So the christians are the odds one out of line, way out of the straight path.

To communicate to human face to face directly, at the same level. Human cannot communicate to God at the level of God since human cannot become God. Do you talk to your children using your adult vocabularies, and adult terminologies? If you do, then don’t blame your children if they don’t understand you. I guess you must be patient enough to explain things using adult terminologies to your kids.

 

[Reuben_J]

I am sure you know that neither Judaism or Islam believes that God is confined to anywhere, least of all to a cross.

Was this got to do with what I was saying that you cannot prove that the Jews of the present state of Israel are the descendents of Judah? Boy, I knew I was opening a pandora box by saying that then.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Dear FoA,

Isn’t the Black Stone located outside the Ka’baa, protected by some sort of metalic cover with a hole in which the Hajj pilgrims can kiss the stone? I don’t have any information of what is inside the Ka’baa. My Hajj grandparent could not tell me either of what is it inside the Ka’baa. He told me that not everyone is allowed to enter Ka’baa. But, everyone is required to kiss the Black Stone.

Yeah it’s like the cornerstone, they say it was white when it came to earth but turned black by the sins of the people.

 

[planten]

To communicate to human face to face directly, at the same level. Human cannot communicate to God at the level of God since human cannot become God. Do you talk to your children using your adult vocabularies, and adult terminologies? If you do, then don’t blame your children if they don’t understand you. I guess you must be patient enough to explain things using adult terminologies to your kids.

I am again surprised at your posts. God was communicating with mankind for ages until Jesus arrived. How they were doing it?? Was that all wrong?, the works of Abraham and Joseph and Moses? Suddenly it occurred to God that He must enter the arena himself in person?. That is all unbelieveable. Sorry to downplay your post. But i have to tell how I feel on this subject…

 

[swariffin]

I am again surprised at your posts. God was communicating with mankind for ages until Jesus arrived. How they were doing it?? Was that all wrong?, the works of Abraham and Joseph and Moses? Suddenly it occurred to God that He must enter the arena himself in person?. That is all unbelieveable. Sorry to downplay your post. But i have to tell how I feel on this subject…

Dear Planten,

You don’t have to say sorry, because I am not offended by your posting. In Exodus 20:18-19, the people were so scared talking to God directly, that they could die. So, God talked through the prophets. Then we have Isaiah, Ezekiel, Mikha, Samuel, Jeremiah, and many others. Did they understand the will of God? Unfortunately no. So, God decided to talk directly to human. How can God achieve this without killing human? God made his words to become human, so in this human figure, God talked to human directly, face to face, in two ways communication. Through Moses, the people must wait for 40 days to receive any news from God, so much they got bored and created their own God (the golden cow) which angered Moses.

Jesus confirms God’s mission in Matthew 21:33-46. Even so, Jesus was not accepted by the Jews, as they are still waiting for the their own version of Messiah.

You may not believe in me, Planten. It does not matter. But, I hope that you can believe that God loves you so much, that God does not consider you as a servant/slave. In return, don’t think that God is a Master, but rather as a parent. So, there is no more Master-Slave relationship between God and human.