Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?

[planten]

I wish that you had supported your Master/ slave words with actual words from the bible please. Until then it will be the words of your mouth only.

I see no difference in the behaviour of people of the time of earlier prophets to those of the time of Jesus. Some people used to listen and obey the old prophets and some did not do it. The same thing happened with Jesus. Some people believed him. The others tried to kill him.

So what use was the god jumping himself into the arena?

 

[swariffin]

I wish that you had supported your Master/ slave words with actual words from the bible please. Until then it will be the words of your mouth only.

What do you mean? I don’t understand. Do you mean that you supported the idea of God having a relationship with human under Master/Slave relationship? I need to clarify, otherwise I will come out with wrong bible quotation.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

What do you mean? I don’t understand. Do you mean that you supported the idea of God having a relationship with human under Master/Slave relationship? I need to clarify, otherwise I will come out with wrong bible quotation.

You are kind of saying that the other prophets didn’t really do a good job because they didn’t understand the will of God and they were kind of failures, so God had to do it Himself as Jesus. But if that was supposed to do the job, why was God rejected?

I’ve seen a lot of explanations of why God had to come down.

God had to be the perfect sinless sacrifice, but that turns it into a kind of pagan sacrifice of virgins thing, rather than a man who was obedient to God and was martyred. In addition to all the other problems with saying a part of God died for three days, that just doesn’t work with monotheism.

God he had to live like a human to know what it was like, but can’t God just dwell in us and feel what we feel anyway?

God had to tell people face to face, but that didn’t do any good, Jesus was still rejected.

And a lot of other things.

But the only belief I ever found that made sense was that God promised David that his son would receive an everlasting kingdom, and the very next son that was born was out of sin with Bathsheba.

But because the son would cause blasphemy of God, for his own good God killed him so he could be resurrected into glory later as Jesus. And this was also necessary because many generations passed without a king on the throne which broke God’s promise to David.

So Jesus fulfilled God’s promise to David, and was also rewarded for being killed for David’s sin.

So when everyone thinks that God is saying that Solomon will be God’s son, God is really talking about Jesus.

2 Samuel 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son…

Not because Jesus is literally God’s son, but because God adopts him because his real father is already died, and God raises Jesus himself in the ways of the spirit.

Romans 8:14-15 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Psalms 68:5 A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows, is God in his holy habitation.

So I think all this makes more sense, is more biblical, and fulfills more prophecies, than does the Christian view and explanations.

 

[Reuben_J]

You are kind of saying that the other prophets didn’t really do a good job because they didn’t understand the will of God and they were kind of failures, so God had to do it Himself as Jesus. But if that was supposed to do the job, why was God rejected?

Hi FOA. Hope you don’t mind if I address this.

God was rejected because man nature is always the same. You always have variety of human behaviours. God’s words were with the prophets but not all the recipients were obedient. Our understanding of God and human relationship was sealed by covenants. When the covenants were broken, humans were punished as the natural consequences. The many prophets that God sent was really a sign of his patient and love.

I’ve seen a lot of explanations of why God had to come down.

God had to be the perfect sinless sacrifice, but that turns it into a kind of pagan sacrifice of virgins thing, rather than a man who was obedient to God and was martyred. In addition to all the other problems with saying a part of God died for three days, that just doesn’t work with monotheism.

God he had to live like a human to know what it was like, but can’t God just dwell in us and feel what we feel anyway?

We see it as indeed great humiliation for God to live like a human. The verse in Philippians describes this situation very well. He emptied himself and be like humans were. …Our logic will say that God does not have to do all this. But this can happen and it is possible if God wants to.

Why God can’t just dwell in us? We can go even further, why God allowed Adam to sin. God did not do this out of the blue but through a process of continous relationship. Those covenants again.

We see that God does not act according to his whim and fancy but is faithful to what he said and promised.

God had to tell people face to face, but that didn’t do any good, Jesus was still rejected.

And a lot of other things.

Yes, people are still hard at heart whether it was Jesus or the other prophets who preached to them. The free will is never taken from us. Jesus makes a difference because of his person and his uniqueness. His words are the authority themselves. His body is the sacrifice in itself.

But the only belief I ever found that made sense was that God promised David that his son would receive an everlasting kingdom, and the very next son that was born was out of sin with Bathsheba.

As I mentioned before this theory is far fetched. I guess this is our irreconcilable differences.

But because the son would cause blasphemy of God, for his own good God killed him so he could be resurrected into glory later as Jesus. And this was also necessary because many generations passed without a king on the throne which broke God’s promise to David.

It is not blasphemy I think. He makes the rule so if he says he wants it that way, I don’t see the problem.

So Jesus fulfilled God’s promise to David, and was also rewarded for being killed for David’s sin.

I think that’s why it is called a sacrifice.

So when everyone thinks that God is saying that Solomon will be God’s son, God is really talking about Jesus.

2 Samuel 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son…

Not at all. Sons of God are actually terminology used for God’s creations. Even angels can be called sons of God. But with Jesus, it is more than just son. He is the only begotten Son. We will go all over again with the Trinity argument with this thing. But that’s what it means.

.

 

[Reuben_J]

Not because Jesus is literally God’s son, but because God adopts him because his real father is already died, and God raises Jesus himself in the ways of the spirit.

Romans 8:14-15 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Jesus is God’s son. We who believe are adopted sons because we become heirs to Jesus. And if Jesus is heir to the Father, then we recieve what Jesus has.

We are nothing actually if not for Jesus. It is in Jesus that we become sons of God. In reality, it is a choice again. We can choose to be God’s sons or the Devil’s sons.

Rom 8:
5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man[e] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.[g] And by him we cry, “Abba,[h] Father.” 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Psalms 68:5 A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows, is God in his holy habitation.

This psalm is about the protective nature of God who provides even to the least and the marginalised. I see no contradiction in this.

So I think all this makes more sense, is more biblical, and fulfills more prophecies, than does the Christian view and explanations.

We will agree to disagree

 

[swariffin]

You are kind of saying that the other prophets didn’t really do a good job because they didn’t understand the will of God and they were kind of failures, so God had to do it Himself as Jesus. But if that was supposed to do the job, why was God rejected?

Dear FoA and Planten,

Where did i say that the prophets did not his job well. It was the people who did not believe the prophets not the other way around. So much to the deaf ear the people had, that God sent His own words to the people. Do I make myself clear?

 

[planten]

Dear FoA and Planten,

Where did i say that the prophets did not his job well. It was the people who did not believe the prophets not the other way around. So much to the deaf ear the people had, that God sent His own words to the people. Do I make myself clear?

Swariffin, the post of FaithofAbraham shown below is very strong. There is a big question there. You cannot get way from that so easily. Even though it was the people who rejected and the people were wrong and the prophets were not wrong. But what happened when god came himself in the form of Jesus?? Was the story any different?? Not at all.

Originally Posted by FaithofAbraham
You are kind of saying that the other prophets didn’t really do a good job because they didn’t understand the will of God and they were kind of failures, so God had to do it Himself as Jesus. But if that was supposed to do the job, why was God rejected?

So why did god try that uusual experiment?. I see that the question of FoA is valid and not properly replied. your god was also rejected just like the prophets.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Dear FoA and Planten,

Where did i say that the prophets did not his job well. It was the people who did not believe the prophets not the other way around. So much to the deaf ear the people had, that God sent His own words to the people. Do I make myself clear?

I thought you were saying that because they did not know the will of God they didn’t succeed in their missions. So like planten said, if Jesus was God it didn’t really change anything, so I’m not sure that supports a reason why he would have to be God instead of a prophet with the Holy Spirit which is supposed to reveal God’s will sufficiently for those who have it, doesn’t it?

 

[swariffin]

Swariffin, the post of FaithofAbraham shown below is very strong. There is a big question there. You cannot get way from that so easily. Even though it was the people who rejected and the people were wrong and the prophets were not wrong. But what happened when god came himself in the form of Jesus?? Was the story any different?? Not at all.

So why did god try that uusual experiment?. I see that the question of FoA is valid and not properly replied. your god was also rejected just like the prophets.

Dear Planten,

If you don’t understand the parable Jesus tell in Matthew 21:33-45, I am not surprise. In this case, please read the passage again, and tell me what you don’t understand. Jesus told the parable because, God has sent many prophets, but the Israelite were either tortured/killed them. At least, the Israelite did not listen to the prophets. So then, God sent His Own Word, to the people. In the story Mat 21:37-39, the wording is “Finally, the owner sent his own son to the tenants…” I understand that FoA has his own interpretation of the bible, and it is not surprising either to me. So, my interpretation is different than his. With respect to you, how can I force you to believe that mine is the better? It will be subjective to you, right? From the parable, we can conclude (and I am sure that you will agree) that God cannot force us, human, to believe in him. Those who believe will be granted much and will live happily ever after, those who doesn’t will go to their own chosen hell. Please understand also that I am not judging you as an unbeliever and condemn you to hell. No, I do not mean that. I am saying that if we believe in God, we will live happily ever after. What we believe, no matter how different it is, should be depends on God to judge.

In Mat 21:33-45 Jesus teaches that God has sent the prophets to the people, but the people did not listen to them (the prophets). They even tortures some prophets and stoned them. So, still out of God’s love to the people, God sent his own Word to us (in human terminology we call God’s son) but yet, the people still not listen. Where did I say that the prophets did not do a good job? Even when Jesus was killed for spreading the love of God, He was tortured and killed. Does it mean that Jesus did not do a good job? (I forget that you don’t believe that Jesus was killed in the cross).

Back to your question in other thread. Jesus call us the people in John 15:15, I will no longer call you “servant” (doulos in Greek), and further the text in Greek mentioned “Humas de eireka “filous” (Filius in Latin and Son in English)…” So, God calls us as His sons, no longer as servant/slave. “Doulos” can also means slave. Now, it is up to you. How do you wish God would treat you? As His son, or as His slave/servant? The choice is yours not mine.

You should know by now that Father-Son as opposed to Master-Servant/Slave relationship between God and human is not my word.

BTW, I am not surprise if you can’t understand me. We have not met each other face to face. But, the more we communicate through this forum, the more we will know each other. At that point, I hope, that you will understand me more, that there is not a single idea of mine to despise Islam or anybody including you. My questions may be quite harsh, I admit that. But, that comes out from my human nature which is full of weaknesses. I am trying to control that.

Sorry to the original OP poster, for I am off-topic.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Dear Planten,

If you don’t understand the parable Jesus tell in Matthew 21:33-45, I am not surprise. In this case, please read the passage again, and tell me what you don’t understand. Jesus told the parable because, God has sent many prophets, but the Israelite were either tortured/killed them. At least, the Israelite did not listen to the prophets. So then, God sent His Own Word, to the people. In the story Mat 21:37-39, the wording is “Finally, the owner sent his own son to the tenants…” I understand that FoA has his own interpretation of the bible, and it is not surprising either to me. So, my interpretation is different than his.

I understand what you are saying, I think it is just referring to sending Messiah himself, the highest of all men, and not really God incarnating for all the reasons I’ve said.

 

[planten]

from Swariffin:
Dear Planten,

If you don’t understand the parable Jesus tell in Matthew 21:33-45, I am not surprise. In this case, please read the passage again, and tell me what you don’t understand

The Parable of the Tenants
33"Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey. 34When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.
35"The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.

38"But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40"Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?"

41"He will bring those wretches to a wretched end," they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”

42Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures:
" ‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone[h];
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’*?

43"Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."[j]

45When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet*.

This parable is also referring to the prophet Muhammad. Please try to understand it. God is the master. People are the tenants. People tried to disobey the prophets. Then they tried to kill Jesus (who was like a son of God). God became very angry. With the Coming of Muhammad, it is as if God himself came and punished the culprits (The polytheists of Arabia and else where).

It is clear that with the coming of Jesus, the purpose was not achieved. Also, please note that the people in his time considered Jesus to be a true prophet of God (See the last line of Mathew above, in blue.).
Also note that Jesus informed the people that the kingdom of God to be taken away from them ( The Israeli people) and that it would be given to a people who would bring the fruit of it. That was Muhammad and his companions. Do not look at the Muslims of today. Please think of the Muslims of 1400 years ago.

The warning from Jesus is clear and it has been proved and come true. Muhammad speaks honorably about Jesus and his followers. He does not say any bad word against Jesus. Please see. Your good words are appreciated.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Also note that Jesus informed the people that the kingdom of God to be taken away from them ( The Israeli people) and that it would be given to a people who would bring the fruit of it.

I think it is just righteous Gentiles in general who accept Jesus, Christians and Muslims – the other nation.

 

[swariffin]

Dear Planten,

You raised an interesting link from our bible to Mohammad. Please allow several days for me. I am at the airport now waiting for my flight to the wilderness. When I get back to your question, perhaps it would be better if we made a new thread because it will be off-topics if we continue our discussion in this thread. Why don’t you open a new thread, and reposting your post there. I will get in touch with you.

 

[Reuben_J]

Swariffin, the post of FaithofAbraham shown below is very strong. There is a big question there. You cannot get way from that so easily. Even though it was the people who rejected and the people were wrong and the prophets were not wrong. But what happened when god came himself in the form of Jesus?? Was the story any different?? Not at all.

Originally Posted by FaithofAbraham
You are kind of saying that the other prophets didn’t really do a good job because they didn’t understand the will of God and they were kind of failures, so God had to do it Himself as Jesus. But if that was supposed to do the job, why was God rejected?

So why did god try that uusual experiment?. I see that the question of FoA is valid and not properly replied. your god was also rejected just like the prophets.

God was rejected because man nature is always the same. You always have variety of human behaviours. God’s words were with the prophets but not all the recipients were obedient. Our understanding of God and human relationship was sealed by covenants. When the covenants were broken, humans were punished as the natural consequences. The many prophets that God sent were really a sign of his patient and love for the people.

Yes, people are still hard at heart whether it was Jesus or the other prophets who preached to them. The free will is never taken from us. Jesus makes a difference because of his person and his uniqueness. His words are the authority themselves. His body is the sacrifice in itself.

Jesus came once and that’s sufficient for God’s plan to be accomplished. GOD DOES NOT MAKE MISTAKE and he does not need to do it all over again, especially since His own Son had died for the salvation of mankind.

 

[Reuben_J]

The Parable of the Tenants
33"Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey. 34When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.
35"The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.

38"But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40"Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?"

41"He will bring those wretches to a wretched end," they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”

42Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures:
" ‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone[h];
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’*?

43"Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."[j]

45When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet*.

This parable is also referring to the prophet Muhammad.
Fine if you think the parable refers to Mohammad so that you can justify him.

But it is very obvious as to who it means by the son, when the parable recounts this:

35"The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 **Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ **he said.

38 "But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

 

[Reuben_J]

Please try to understand it. God is the master. People are the tenants. People tried to disobey the prophets. Then they tried to kill Jesus (who was like a son of God). God became very angry. With the Coming of Muhammad, it is as if God himself came and punished the culprits (The polytheists of Arabia and else where).

It does not say Jesus was like a son of God. It says ‘he sent his son’.

The parable says

37Last of all, he sent his son to them.38"But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

Frankly, as a Christian, I am quite satisfied when Muslims argue like this. It just reinforces the truth of my belief because what is mentioned in the verses you quoted is very obvious and clear.

It is clear that with the coming of Jesus, the purpose was not achieved. Also, please note that the people in his time considered Jesus to be a true prophet of God (See the last line of Mathew above, in blue.) .

Why do you say the purpose of Jesus’ coming was not achieved?

This is the purpose of Jesus’ coming:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

The verse has NOT been abrogated to my knowledge.

For those who belief THEY WILL BE SAVED.

Also note that Jesus informed the people that the kingdom of God to be taken away from them ( The Israeli people) and that it would be given to a people who would bring the fruit of it. That was Muhammad and his companions. Do not look at the Muslims of today. Please think of the Muslims of 1400 years ago.

Yes, I agree it has been taken from the Israelis. They should have no claim to Palestine, at least not spiritually.

What is the fruit of Mohammad?

Even 1400 years ago there was nothing much to boast about. Maybe you care to enlighten this forum? We would be very grateful.

I already told you his fruit is suicide bombers who achieved nothing, while the fruit of Jesus is peace and love, Pope John Paul 2 for example, who can conquer what the barrel of guns cannot.

The warning from Jesus is clear and it has been proved and come true. Muhammad speaks honorably about Jesus and his followers. He does not say any bad word against Jesus. Please see. Your good words are appreciated.

As I see it, Mohammad blasphemed against Jesus. This much I can say. I would not go on unless pressed, for fear it may offend.

God bless.

 

[planten]

Reuben:
As I see it, Mohammad blasphemed against Jesus. This much I can say. I would not go on unless pressed, for fear it may offend.

God bless.

Thanks for being kind. There is not a single bad word in the Quran about jesus or Mary or the disciples of Jesus. Any one can read or search the Quran for any bad thing. He will not find it there.

I personally love Jesus and Mary, the mother from the bottom of my heart and love them as much as I love muhammad. Thatis true love.

 

[Booklover]

It is not a story of winning or losing something. The whole attitude of the christians goes against the Muslims and the humanity. It is true that the Jews say it was Issac. The Muslims say it was Ishmael. So leave it at that. Leave the christians out of this matter. They are niether here nor there. There is nothing about the sacrifice matter in the bible NT. Not more than a word of some person.

Another nonsensical post! Muslims are the ones that are against all non-Muslims! Not a day goes by that we don’t hear of some new Muslim atrocity even against other Muslims like the female suicide bombers who killed 64 people at markets in Baghdad!

Vickie

 

[planten]

Another nonsensical post! Muslims are the ones that are against all non-Muslims! Not a day goes by that we don’t hear of some new Muslim atrocity even against other Muslims like the female suicide bombers who killed 64 people at markets in Baghdad!

Vickie

The dead persons cannot pray for you. They need your prayers. They have passed away. They cannot pray or do any other good deed. You are asking St. Joan of ark to pray for you. Whatever prayers miss Joan was to do, she had done it and gone to the next world as a martyr.

In Islam we do not ask dead people to pray because they cannot do it.

 

[Reuben_J]

The dead persons cannot pray for you. They need your prayers. They have passed away. They cannot pray or do any other good deed. You are asking St. Joan of ark to pray for you. Whatever prayers miss Joan was to do, she had done it and gone to the next world as a martyr.

In Islam we do not ask dead people to pray because they cannot do it.

You’ve just belittled a Catholic belief. How do you expect us to be kind to your prophet? Because it’s him and the Quran that teach you this. Now you quote this teaching in this forum where the majority of posters here are Catholics.

Don’t get me wrong. It’s not that you cannot say what you believe but then you must be prepared to listen to what we say about the sources of your belief.

Or do you expect us to keep mumb and to agree with you? Prayer of intercession is one of the core belief of Catholics. We believe the church, or the body of Christ comprised of all believers, be they alive or dead.

I know Muslims do intercede for Mohammad though. We too intercede for the souls of the deads. Like we pray for those who died, we can also ask them, especially the saints, to pray for us, for we are in one body.