Did abuses exist pre-Vatican II?

[Magnum_V8]

I’m a product of the post-Vatican II era, 28 years old. My first Tridentine Mass was on Easter Sunday of this year.

I’ve seen numerous reports of Catholicism’s decline since Vatican II. Obviously, abuses in the Novus Ordo are fairly common. But, I’m wondering, were there ever any abuses in the TLM?

 

[palmas85]

I’m a product of the post-Vatican II era, 28 years old. My first Tridentine Mass was on Easter Sunday of this year.

I’ve seen numerous reports of Catholicism’s decline since Vatican II. Obviously, abuses in the Novus Ordo are fairly common. But, I’m wondering, were there ever any abuses in the TLM?

Not of the sort and magnitude that occur daily in the Pauline. In fact they were few and far between because the Traditional Mass was so structured. Mainly they would have been either reading the prayers too fast or mumbling them. That seems to be the biggest issue most had as far as abuses. In fact, I really can’t remember any abuses other than those even being mentioned on this forum.

There were documented abuses in the Middle Ages and undoubtedly others as well.

 

[kleary]

The 1962 Missal is impossible to abuse because all actions of the priest are controlled by what he sees in the Missal as he is saying Mass. In the 1962 Missal at mostly every place it tells the priest how to hold his hands, where to direct his eyes, what tone to sing in, whether to pray silently or audibly. There was never any room for anything of what we see as abuses today.

From what I have heard the only “abuses” were very minor- such as the priest rushing through Low Mass. That however is in no comparison to what we see happening today, and what has been happening since 1970- to where two abuses have now become the norm- Communion in the hand and female altar servers.

Ken

 

[thecoach]

The 1962 Missal is impossible to abuse because all actions of the priest are controlled by what he sees in the Missal as he is saying Mass. In the 1962 Missal at mostly every place it tells the priest how to hold his hands, where to direct his eyes, what tone to sing in, whether to pray silently or audibly. There was never any room for anything of what we see as abuses today.

From what I have heard the only “abuses” were very minor- such as the priest rushing through Low Mass. That however is in no comparison to what we see happening today, and what has been happening since 1970- to where two abuses have now become the norm- Communion in the hand and female altar servers.

Ken

those are abuses? they are allowed by the Pope. Doesnt he have that authority? If he can allow two calendars, he can allow these, or is papal authority only when you agree with it?

 

[Genesis315]

There’s always been ups and downs.

Read the unabridged version of St. Catherine of Siena’s Dialogue. Priests would omit the words of consecrations since no one could hear them anyway. Priests and bishops would bring their mistresses and children and sit them in the front pew. Bishops would make their illegitimate sons priests and not train them at all–they wouldn’t even know Latin. They’d just butcher the whole Mass just uttering gibberish so it wasn’t even recognizable,

The feigned Masses (no words of consecration) were so widespread they received a formal condemnation from Pope Innocent III. The Fourth Lateran Council also had to address the abuses involving filthy churches and sacred vessels, and churches used for all sorts of profane uses like storing furniture and the priest’s personal junk. There was so much squalor it would “horrify” people according to the Council.

The acts of the Council of Trent also list a great many liturgical abuses.

In the early Church, we see St. Basil calling churches “schools of impiety” lamenting all the traditions unlawfully cast aside and the innovations introduced into worship (letters 90 and 92).

Then there were the Mass of Asses where a donkey was brought in the sanctuary and the people hee-hawed the responses and the Mass of Fools where youth pretended to be bishops and priests and essentially put on a burlesque show in the church.

Anyway, where there are sinful men, there will be rebellious or lazy men. This is not to downplay abuses, but just to keep a proper perspective. Pray for priests…

 

[brotherhrolf]

Much of what Genesis describes are historical abuses from the Middle Ages that may have had no little impact for the reformers to come around.

However, I can’t say I saw any abuses at any Mass I ever attended when I was a child or adolescent. I did hear from friends who would say their priest could say a low Mass in under 15 minutes.

My reality was that even when it was just Father and me saying his daily Mass before the sisters arrived and the parish church was built, Father never, ever rushed or deviated from the Missal. Both of us were fully vested even though it was just the two of us.

The first actual abuse I saw was in 1969 at my graduation Mass from my Catholic high school where the Offertory hymn was Simon and Garfunkle’s “Sound of Silence” and the Communion hymn was their “Bridge over Troubled Waters”. There were many of my fellow classmates who were outraged. We were told, “it’s in the spirit of Vatican II”.

 

[BobP123]

I’ll have to agree that there were abuses in the pre-Vatican II days, although, as a server, I always heard the words of consecration. Why would the priest want to skip the “Hoc est enim Corpus Meum” anyway? It certainly takes less effort than genuflecting, elevating the Host, and genuflecting again.

As far as speedy Masses goes, except for the last Mass of the day, because of Mass times scheduled to accommodate all the parishioners, the priests were under pressure to finish the Mass in less than an hour, less than a half hour during week days. I would definitely not consider a Mass of 25 minutes an abuse. We were trained as servers to accommodate this time frame.

 

[KathleenElsie]

I’m a product of the post-Vatican II era, 28 years old. My first Tridentine Mass was on Easter Sunday of this year.

I’ve seen numerous reports of Catholicism’s decline since Vatican II. Obviously, abuses in the Novus Ordo are fairly common. But, I’m wondering, were there ever any abuses in the TLM?

As the Church is made up of humans, yes there were abuses. But not to the extent that you see now in the Church.

I pray that the new GREEN Missal for Masses in English will correct many of these innovations.

 

[John_Higgins]

Of course there were preV2 abuses. I served a 21 minuted Sunday low Mass where the priest wore golf shoes. Envision this “Ite missa est—FORE!”

John

 

[Genesis315]

Much of what Genesis describes are historical abuses from the Middle Ages that may have had no little impact for the reformers to come around.

Yeah, like I said, its ups and downs. I’m sure the Apostolic and immediate post-Apostolic age Church was great, around St. Basil’s time it went down hill, it got really good again around St. Gregory’s time, and then started slipping around the turn of the Millenium getting better during the counter-reformation, and then going down hill in our time. I tend to think it’s because we get complacent when things are too tranquil. Then things get bad, we get a kick in the pants and eventually get things back on track, and then get tranquil again, and so on, and so forth.

 

[chicago]

I think that today we are much more attuned to delicts. Even to the point, perhaps, that the devil uses our sincere concern as a way to distract us over every little thing. And, while the current Mass certainly allows for more options which has in part enabled this, the larger thing at play may be a general sense of experimentation (like a pendulum to the extreme following such a long period of particular rigidity) coupled with a greater knowledge and sensitivity to such things. Today, the laity have ready access to all kinds of documents and discussions which they never paid attention to before. You just trusted Father and anything he did must have been right. If the priests of yesteryear had to live in the watchdog environment of today, they too would probably get picked apart.

 

[daeve]

Back in the 50s and 60s, if there were abuses, how many people would have noticed? Even if they did, my grandparents, mother, aunts and uncles would not have criticized the priests or the bishops or even the nuns. They would have figured something changed and they just didn’t know about it, but Father wouldn’t do anything wrong.

 

[Daprato]

I’m a product of the post-Vatican II era, 28 years old. My first Tridentine Mass was on Easter Sunday of this year.

I’ve seen numerous reports of Catholicism’s decline since Vatican II. Obviously, abuses in the Novus Ordo are fairly common. But, I’m wondering, were there ever any abuses in the TLM?

This might bring some perspective:

The Old Mass

Stop! Take off the rose-colored glasses and face a reality of 20/20 hindsight. I began serving “the old Mass” in 1939. I am now 73 years old, 45 years a priest, having begun my seminary studies in 1950. As a kid knowing the perfect recitation of all the Latin Mass responses, we dealt with mumbled praying of many priests. In the old days there were parishes that were known as “whiz churches”: Sunday Mass, in and out in 20 minutes.

Young priests were told the motto: “Get them out fast”. In college I was too embarrassed to invite my dormitory roommates to Sunday Mass - the blatant lack of piety was a scandal. Rarely do I look back and remember edifying experiences as being the norm. But, yes, there were some.

In my experience today the gains outshine the losses. Yes, I know where craziness exists and horror stories are a fact. But the gains were tremendous. Yes, we are still growing/becoming what we should be. Change begets excesses – the pendulum swings from one extreme to the other, yet eventually resting in the middle… The recent writings and promulgations of our Holy Father give us hope, e.g., the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (USCCB Website), Sacrosanctum Concilium, and Ecclesia de Eucharistia.

Don’t despair. If there is craziness in your parish, pray for your bishop, write lovingly to the offending priest and copy it to the diocesan liturgical committee. Don’t you be crazy too – document accurately the observation of misdirection.

Having been a pastor for 27 years, in a variety of multicultural parishes, I have witnessed, in these changing times, the evolution of a profoundly rich contemporary Mass that is celebrated within the rules.

Would I go back to pre-Vatican II days? No way. I reverence the past, but live and work in the richness of the present, championing orthodoxy and “working to beat hell!”

Be patient. Treat all with charity, pray unceasingly and know that truth will conquer. As the Adoremus Bulletin tells us: “The Holy Father asks bishops and liturgists to build on the ‘riches’ of the reform while also pruning ‘serious abuses’ with ‘prudent firmness’”. (“The Foundations of Liturgical Reform”, March 2004)

Father Andre J. Meluskey
Senior Priest, St. Patrick Church
Carlisle, Pennsylvania

adoremus.org/0704ReadersForum.html

 

[Daprato]

I think that today we are much more attuned to delicts. Even to the point, perhaps, that the devil uses our sincere concern as a way to distract us over every little thing. And, while the current Mass certainly allows for more options which has in part enabled this, the larger thing at play may be a general sense of experimentation (like a pendulum to the extreme following such a long period of particular rigidity) coupled with a greater knowledge and sensitivity to such things. Today, the laity have ready access to all kinds of documents and discussions which they never paid attention to before. You just trusted Father and anything he did must have been right. If the priests of yesteryear had to live in the watchdog environment of today, they too would probably get picked apart.

That is very well said, and “delicts” is the proper term. Just look at the information sources (WWW, EWTN, etc.) that we have today, compared to yesteryear.

 

[Daprato]

The 1962 Missal is impossible to abuse because all actions of the priest are controlled by what he sees in the Missal as he is saying Mass. In the 1962 Missal at mostly every place it tells the priest how to hold his hands, where to direct his eyes, what tone to sing in, whether to pray silently or audibly. There was never any room for anything of what we see as abuses today.

From what I have heard the only “abuses” were very minor- such as the priest rushing through Low Mass. That however is in no comparison to what we see happening today, and what has been happening since 1970- to where two abuses have now become the norm- Communion in the hand and female altar servers.

Ken

That’s simply not true…

And for better or worse, in the USA, both communion in hand and female altar servers are formally approved by the Holy See.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Part of the point in discussing pre-Vatican II abuses is that the TLM isn’t as dependent on the priest. Thus if a priest mumbles the prayer or gets Mass done in 20 minutes okay, …and?

You still get to follow along and immerse yourself in the prayers which have developed over the centuries and were prayed by numerous saints. And to me those are some of the true riches of the TLM.

 

[Daprato]

Part of the point in discussing pre-Vatican II abuses is that the TLM isn’t as dependent on the priest. Thus if a priest mumbles the prayer or gets Mass done in 20 minutes okay, …and?

You still get to follow along and immerse yourself in the prayers which have developed over the centuries and were prayed by numerous saints. And to me those are some of the true riches of the TLM.

I’m not at all certain that is true. While there may be more legitimate options to the celebrant with the Pauline Mass, an abuse is an abuse and typically comes about when the rubrics are not followed.

Regarding the prayers, the prayers of the Pauline Mass have also been prayed by saints…

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

I’m not at all certain that is true. While there may be more legitimate options to the celebrant with the Pauline Mass, an abuse is an abuse and typically comes about when the rubrics are not followed.

Regarding the prayers, the prayers of the Pauline Mass have also been prayed by saints…

There are different types of abuses. Mumbling the Latin is a different sort of abuse than changing the words to the canon.

What present day Saints have prayed the prayers of the Pauline Mass? I honestly don’t know.

Regardless, I’d rather stick with prayers that have organically developed over the centuries.

 

[BobP123]

Regarding the prayers, the prayers of the Pauline Mass have also been prayed by saints…

Probably not the horrible Offertory though.

That’s simply not true…

And for better or worse, in the USA, both communion in hand and female altar servers are formally approved by the Holy See.

I believe the poster was making a point of abuses that became so out of control that it finally lead to tolerance by the Church. I really doubt there was an MP issued by the Pope to approve such liberal novelties.

 

[Daprato]

There are different types of abuses. Mumbling the Latin is a different sort of abuse **than changing the words to the canon.
**
What present day Saints have prayed the prayers of the Pauline Mass? I honestly don’t know.

Regardless, I’d rather stick with prayers that have organically developed over the centuries.

The words to the canon can be changed in the Tridentine Mass as well. Either can be abused.

Well for instance, the credo goes back centuries and many canonized saints have prayed it…