Did Adam and Eve know Good and Evil before they ate the fruit?

[kaysette]

You can kill me, but it cannot be just until, **my power **of free will to choose between law of king and lie of slave, **is in the… apple **beside you. Specially when you know that!!

Thinking about this a little more made me come back and comment on this statement you made. Part of the problem with your logic is that you are placing too much power on that “apple.” The** power **to overcome was not in the KNOWLEDGE from that fruit at all — it was from being a completely submissive servant to the Master and Creator. Anytime we submit to anything or anyone over and above our Master, **we LOSE our power **and authority. We become slaves to the one which we OBEY. Get your eyes off of the SIN and off of the TEMPTATION and keep them on the MASTER. Partaking of the sin will NEVER give us knowledge which enables obedience and righteousness. You are arguing for a valid excuse to follow another leader. There is NONE.

 

[dessert]

In chapter one and two we find the development of the relationships, as intended by God, between man and the rest of the cosmos and with his fellow man as expressed through human language in the narratives we read. We find in these two chapters that God’s creation is meant to serve man. This is expressed through the terms like man is given dominion over all creatures and plants. God, giving man the task to name all things also shows that man has the God given power over His creation and there is the famous expression that man is to “subdue” the earth. But Genesis is very clear that this power is not limitless but with it comes responsibility, the responsibility of stewardship. I cannot help but think of Jesus’ words to Pontius Pilate when He has to remind Pilate that all power he is exercising comes not from himself but from a higher authority.

In Chapter 2 we find developed the proper relationship between all men especially in regards to human sexuality. Here we find that human sexuality is a gift from God, given to man to make man whole and complete. Our sexuality is not a punishment as was taught by the other creation myths of the various cultures the Hebrew and Israelite people were exposed to, this is not a narrative of dominence but of equality as symbolized by the women being created not from the earth directly but from man’s rib. It should be remembered that prior to the account of the creation of the women, the word for man was gender neutral another sign of eqaulity and that humans are cannot be truly whole except in the proper context of our sexuality.

This brings us to the question I think actually underlies the topic of this discussion or at least where this discussion has lead. That is what is the nature of sin. I think if we get caught up in the accidentals of over analyzing particular acts which may have happened (but most likely did not) we run the risk of missing the whole truth of Genesis 3. And the truth found in this chapter is rather simple. Namely man, no longer content being a creature freely chose to be his own god, to do his will not God’s. Wasn’t this the great temptation the women faced? Isn’t this the actual choice the man made, of his own free wil,l that is to go against his very nature (that of creature) and choose to be like god? For me, this is the real insight of Genesis 3 (seen in the light of Chapters one and two) and to place all the emphasis on the actions of the particulars of the narrative misses the deeper and essential truth revealed.

Finally, I again have to apologize if what I have written has been esentially a poorly plagiarize variation of the works of others, if this is the case it is totally unintentional but perhaps unavoidable.

If you will note in Chapter 4 of Genesis 25,26 That God and Eve are on speaking terms and she names her son Seth.
Yes I agree that God made the creation for man and he named the creatures as God named Adam Adam and Adam named Eve Eve after the fall not before, and they are all responsible for each other.
Eve made a wrong choice because she was enabled to because she was not a robot, therefore the Father sent the Son through the Holy spirit to Mary who made the right choice as this is tied into the New Testament! Peroid! This is the final narrative that we recognize the lies that try to deceive us into thinking we did not and still don’t have a **FREE WILL .
** Dessert

**

Help me to repent of my past sins and to resist temptation in the future, help me to rise above my human weaknesses and to grow stronger as a Christian.
Pope Clement XI**

 

[dessert]

Fine. OK. I agree.

You said ‘they willfully chose to disobey God’. Until and unless they know good and evil, how could they choose God’s commandment which has to be good, instead of evil?

Why God made Adam to be able to sin, if God never wanted sin? What does their act change in us, does it make us a sinners?
Do we have to pay for their act?

Luke 18:19-22 is more important because it is our part of act. According to 18:27 God will save us, but not until we do our part/prepare/seek to be saved. Read the whole context; it is very clear.

I didn’t understand that. Give me the reference as well.

I agree. If I do, it is dishonest.

I really meant that question, but he didn’t answer me. Can you?

You can kill me, but it cannot be just until, my power of free will to choose between law of king and lie of slave, is in the… apple beside you. Specially when you know that!!

I’m sorry but yes we have inherited the spiritual sin on our souls for death, but have the redemption of Jesus Christ which we must also chose as He does not force it on us as this is also a choice. Does this help? Our spiritual soul is already destined and you seem to know the bible so I won’t list it all for you. I’m not sure I know what you are getting at? Dessert

 

[dessert]

A slave does not have choices and Jesus said he calls us friends , not servants or slaves,but this is after we come into the vine (Him). Does this help? I also have to go to work. unfortunately, will discuss tomoorow. dessert

 

[Khalfan]

I believe there is a difference between knowing right from wrong and knowing good and evil. Good and evil requires a moral component that is absent from knowing right and wrong.

Can you explain it a bit?

 

[Valke2]

Can you explain it a bit?

God names the tree “the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil”. So we can assume that it somewho gives one a “knowledge of Good and Evil,” an ability to distinguish right from wrong to those who partake of its fruits.

The first question that the rabbis asked (I’ll assume it was the first question, but what do I know), is "Aren’t we better off with the knowledge of “good and evil”? Why would God want to deny this knowledge to people?

A worrld where we don’t know right from wrong is a world of sociopaths. People are better off when they know the difference between right and wrong. So why would God pretend that having such knowledge is undesirable?

Also, if Adam and Eve already understood good and evil before reaching for the fruit, what’s the purpose of the tree? A Divine joke?

In his Guide to the Perplexed, Rambam considers the very same question – Why would God want to withhold a knowledge of good and evil from us? He answers, the tree didn’t give us an understanding of right and wrong when we had none before; rather it transformed this understanding from one thing into another. It transformed it into something called a “knowledge of Good and Evil”.

When we do something right, we naturally think of it as “good.” But, Rambam argues that this is not the most natural term one could possibly use. Good and Evil became relevant to us – they became part of our vocabulary, as it were - only after we ate from the tree and assimilated “knowledge of good and evil”.

It is a difficult question – What would it mean to think about right and wrong in the world of Eden?

I think that adding good and evil into the mix of right and wrong, causes us to struggle with the morals of our choices. Perhaps in the garden, we simiply knew what was right and what was wrong. There was no moral struggle with the choices we made, whether they would lead to evil or good acts. It’s hard to verbalize since none of us have ever lived in such a world. Let me do some research and give it some more thought.

 

[Keikiolu]

…{snip}…

I have asked already, but let me ask again.

Why Genesis 2:9 and 17 says the knowledge about good and evil was in the fruit?

Because the knowledge of good and evil was in the EXPERIENCING of the fruit,… not some component of the fruit itself.

Once Eve and Adam tasted (willed to experience) of the fruit (a thing forbidden by God), they KNEW they had done evil instead of doing good.

The fruit didn’t grant them “knowing what all specific things GOOD are, and knowing what all specific things EVIL are”.

It simply dawned on them, once they “tasted of the fruit”, that they’d chosen (willed) to do other than what God willed for them to choose.

Before they knew “what it was to disobey God”, which is the very meaning of “good and evil”, they knew what they were supposed to do and not supposed to do,… and they were “not supposed to do” the eating of the fruit of that tree.

Why Genesis 3:7 says they didn’t even know, they are naked and they got their eyes open only after eating the fruit?

Because they didn’t know (ie experience, ie “have their eyes opened to”) what it was to disobey God until after they’d done so.

The reason their nakedness bothered them, all of a sudden, was that they realized that they had chosen “badly” (all of a sudden) and were seeking to “hide themselves”. Nakedness is simply the most premordial “feeling” (being “closest to our skin”) associated with wanting to hide our “bad choices”.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOME forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*Khalfan,
I only have a few minutes but I thought I would respond to your question about Eve having the strenght to resist temptation. Perhaps the answer isn’t found in Genesis or the Old Testament but the answer is found in the New Testament. Christ tells Paul that His grace is sufficent for Paul to face all trails. Certainly given that the temptation was before “The Fall” Eve, herself was full of grace therefore she did have the strenght to resist any and all temptation, no?

Right now I just do not have the time to address your other questions but when I can give them the time they deserve, I will put something together.*

How could Eve have had the power to resist the temptor when the Holy Spirit had not come, had not been sent by the Father before the Son had not been glorified and gone to the Father?

Firstly, the Trinity always co-existed in all eternity. Eve had the full “help” of God as the “full” Trinity.

Secondly, Human (and Angelic) free will ALWAYS has the power to “trump” God’s grace. If it didn’t, then it wouldn’t BE free will, would it?

Eve simply used her free will, even though she WAS indeed “full of grace”, counter to God’s will.

This “tension”, where even someone who is “full of grace” can still CHOOSE good or evil, is the whole point and reason for the veneration of Mary. Unlike Eve, Mary chose good over evil, which she was not forced to do, of her own free will.

Was she full of grace ? I thought that was Mary? No?

Eve WAS full of grace (and she lost it). Mary WAS (is!) full of grace, having retained it.

The important point to remember is that regardless of the “quantity” of one’s grace, it never trumps free will and makes one a “robot” of God.

God respects above all things free will, and all “outcomes” are dependent on the free will of those who have it.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Wasn’t this the great temptation the women faced?

Yes, it is. My question is, was she capable enough to face that great temptation? Was she guided enough to face any evil temptation?

She was fully capable to face ANY evil (temptation) because she was given explicit command to not do as God told her not to do.

The ONLY thing required to choose one thing over another is simply to will it (to choose it).

She had all the “guidance” she needed, in God’s direct commands. All she needed to do was simply ask God, at any time, and He would have counseled her as to what His command would be.

But she CHOSE to take counsel of one of God’s creatures, who was “cool” and had appealing form and words, over simply asking God, who was never far off.

If your answer is ‘Yes’, why Genesis 2:9 and 17 says the knowledge about good and evil was in the fruit?

What was “in” the fruit was the “form” and “taste” of the fruit, which was the form and taste of disobedience to God.

The fruit was not “MAGIC”. It was simply a signal to God, and to man, that man had chosen (willed) “against God’s will”.

The ONLY “knowledge” that the fruit “contained” was the knowledge of what it felt like to disobey God.

Why Genesis 3:7 says they didn’t even know, they were naked and they got their eyes open only after eating the fruit?

They had no reason to want to “hide themselves” (hide their offense) before their first act of disobedience of God.

After that first disobedient act, that had GOOD reason to hide themselves, don’t you think?

If your answer is No, the claim of sin doesn’t make any sense.

Yes, she was capable of facing the temptation,and yes, she was guided enough to have chosen not to succumb to the temptation…

It is good, not to get caught up in the accidentals of over analyzing particular acts and not to miss the whole truth of Genesis 2 and 3. But we cannot ignore what said in it.

I haven’t ignored it,… have I?

Quote:
​

Isn’t this the actual choice the man made, of his own free will, that is to go against his very nature (that of creature) and choose to be like God?
​

Why man didn’t choose to be like God, before serpent come?

Man had not chosen to be like God until then because man hadn’t thought of it yet.

The temptor simply brought up the subject before any other reason arose to bring it up.

Once again, sin was not “created” by man. It was “created”, to misuse the word “created” a bit, by Satan, and it seems rather fitting that Satan should get “credit” for infecting man with it, wouldn’t you say?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[son_of_Our_Lady]

Did Adam and Eve knew good and Evil before they eat the fruit? Bible doesn’t say they knew.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” (SIV)

GOD said ‘NOW man become knowing good and evil’. I think, before eating the fruit, Adam and eve didn’t know good and evil. Because knowledge of Good was in the fruit as per Genesis 2:9 and 17. In both case, whether they did know or didn’t know good, they didn’t know what evil and its temptation is. How could Adam and eve be responsible for what they did, which they didn’t know that it is a sin, since it was the result of the temptation of serpent and Adam or Eve didn’t know how to handle the evil temptation? How could GOD consider them as sinners for something that they didn’t know?

—To your question “Did Adam and Eve knew good and Evil before they eat the fruit?”

—The answer is: Adam and Eve only knew good before they ate the fruit
Gen ch2 verse 25:
“The man and his wife were both naked, yet they felt no shame.”

—God knows they needed guidance so he sets them on the right path
Gen Ch2 verse 16-17
“The LORD God gave man this order: “You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden except the tree of knowledge of good and bad. From that tree you shall not eat; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die.””

—Adam and Eve were given right guidance by God, but they did not follow the guidance
Gen ch3 verse 2-3
"The woman answered the serpent: “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden; it is only about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden that God said, ‘You shall not eat it or even touch it, lest you die.’” "

Gen ch3 verse 6
“The woman saw that the tree was good for food, pleasing to the eyes, and desirable for gaining wisdom. So she took some of its fruit and ate it; and she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.”

—Now they knew evil, because they strayed from the right path and their sin made them realise they were naked

Gen ch3 verse 10
"He answered, “I heard you in the garden; but I was afraid, because I was naked, so I hid myself.” "

Gen ch3 verse 22
"Then the LORD God said: “See! The man has become like one of us, knowing what is good and what is bad! Therefore, he must not be allowed to put out his hand to take fruit from the tree of life also, and thus eat of it and live forever.” "

—God knows good and evil because He is all knowing. Adam and Eve know good and evil because they experienced both. Only after they experienced evil were they banished from the Garden.

Peace to you

 

[Khalfan]

I’m sorry I should have been more clear in respect that I know english isn’t your first language. I’ll emphasize the words that seem to have not been understood.

Yes. You are right. My english may have problems.

That doesn’t have to be written in the account about Adam and Eve to be true because that is the nature of the God our bible reveals.

what I mean is that the bible in many ways reveals in it’s words God’s nature.God’s nature is described in many other books and passages in the bible. Especially in light of the love of the Father revealed in the New Testament through Jesus Christ

There is a small part to add, to make it complete. You are started with ‘That doesn’t have to be written…’. What you mean by the word ‘THAT’?!! It is something that is not written in the account of Adam and Eve, because of the nature of God. What is described in many other books and passages in the Bible is, nature of GOD. Isn’t it? Is there anywhere in the Bible, in any book, in any passage, it is described that something what you meant by ‘THAT’?

What you meant by ‘THAT’ is below. Check the underlined part.

We believe that God provided Adam and Eve with everything they needed to do the right thing. That doesn’t have to be written in the account about Adam and Eve to be true because that is the nature of the God our bible reveals…

I hope that is very clear now.

Yes I accept that. I agree, they didn’t know what we know now and since the fall. They didn’t know shame, guilt or any other experience attached to evil. They were innocent.
The innocent heart see’s no evil. Not that it isn’t there but that it doesn’t judge what is good and what is evil. the Innocent heart just cries out to God 'why is this Lord?..I am confused why this is"

Adam and Eve enjoyed this state of Original Innocense. To show them evil and say…this is evil, innocense is lost because of the awareness that there is something not good.We witnessed this innocense when Jesus was dying " Why hast thou abandoned me?" Notice that Jesus, displays His innocense, not in the way we would by crying out " How can you abandon me! I thought you were good!" but simply asking His Father “why”.

Jesus is God. Jesus came die on the cross. He knew what he was doing. Then, on the cross he said ‘Why have you forsaken me?’ Who forsook whom? Can God forsake himself?!! Does that question make any sense?

Adam and Eve was innocents. They didn’t know evil at all. You agreed that. How do you expect them to know good, until they know what is evil? Even for us, the knowledge of wrong completes the knowledge of right and the knowledge of right completes the knowledge of wrong. One cannot be complete without the other. That is why in any court, children are not punished as adults. Children are excused because the judge and the law understands, child is not grown enough to understand right and wrong. Until the knowledge of good and evil was in the fruit, Adam and Eve were not grown enough to understand good and evil. They were supposed to get excused as any child, since what they did was purely out of ignorence.

 

[Khalfan]

—To your question “Did Adam and Eve knew good and Evil before they eat the fruit?”

—The answer is: Adam and Eve only knew good before they ate the fruit
Gen ch2 verse 25:
“The man and his wife were both naked, yet they felt no shame.”

—God knows they needed guidance so he sets them on the right path
Gen Ch2 verse 16-17
“The LORD God gave man this order: “You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden except the tree of knowledge of good and bad. From that tree you shall not eat; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die.””

—Adam and Eve were given right guidance by God, but they did not follow the guidance
Gen ch3 verse 2-3
"The woman answered the serpent: “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden; it is only about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden that God said, ‘You shall not eat it or even touch it, lest you die.’” "

Gen ch3 verse 6
“The woman saw that the tree was good for food, pleasing to the eyes, and desirable for gaining wisdom. So she took some of its fruit and ate it; and she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.”

—Now they knew evil, because they strayed from the right path and their sin made them realise they were naked

Gen ch3 verse 10
"He answered, “I heard you in the garden; but I was afraid, because I was naked, so I hid myself.” "

Gen ch3 verse 22
"Then the LORD God said: “See! The man has become like one of us, knowing what is good and what is bad! Therefore, he must not be allowed to put out his hand to take fruit from the tree of life also, and thus eat of it and live forever.” "

—God knows good and evil because He is all knowing. Adam and Eve know good and evil because they experienced both. Only after they experienced evil were they banished from the Garden.

Peace to you

What you mean by knowledge of good and evil?

 

[son_of_Our_Lady]

…
Jesus is God. Jesus came die on the cross. He knew what he was doing. Then, on the cross he said ‘Why have you forsaken me?’ Who forsook whom? Can God forsake himself?!! Does that question make any sense? …

When Jesus said ‘Why have you forsaken me?’ he was quoting scripture. The passage he refers to not only confirms that all men should have faith in God, but it fortells of His death and the redemption of mankind by His sacrifice:

Psalm Ch 22 verses 2-32

2
My God, my God, why have you abandoned me? Why so far from my call for help, from my cries of anguish?
3
My God, I call by day, but you do not answer; by night, but I have no relief.
4
Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One; you are the glory of Israel.
5
In you our ancestors trusted; they trusted and you rescued them.
6
To you they cried out and they escaped; in you they trusted and were not disappointed.
7
3 But I am a worm, hardly human, scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
8
All who see me mock me; they curl their lips and jeer; they shake their heads at me:
9
“You relied on the LORD–let him deliver you; if he loves you, let him rescue you.”
10
Yet you drew me forth from the womb, made me safe at my mother’s breast.
11
Upon you I was thrust from the womb; since birth you are my God.
12
Do not stay far from me, for trouble is near, and there is no one to help.
13
4 Many bulls surround me; fierce bulls of Bashan encircle me.
14
They open their mouths against me, lions that rend and roar.
15
Like water my life drains away; all my bones grow soft. My heart has become like wax, it melts away within me.
16
5 As dry as a potsherd is my throat; my tongue sticks to my palate; you lay me in the dust of death.
17
Many dogs surround me; a pack of evildoers closes in on me. So wasted are my hands and feet
18
that I can count all my bones. They stare at me and gloat;
19
they divide my garments among them; for my clothing they cast lots.
20
But you, LORD, do not stay far off; my strength, come quickly to help me.
21
Deliver me from the sword, my forlorn life from the teeth of the dog.
22
Save me from the lion’s mouth, my poor life from the horns of wild bulls.
23
6 Then I will proclaim your name to the assembly; in the community I will praise you:
24
“You who fear the LORD, give praise! All descendants of Jacob, give honor; show reverence, all descendants of Israel!
25
7 For God has not spurned or disdained the misery of this poor wretch, Did not turn away from me, but heard me when I cried out.
26
I will offer praise in the great assembly; my vows I will fulfill before those who fear him.
27
8 The poor will eat their fill; those who seek the LORD will offer praise. May your hearts enjoy life forever!”
28
All the ends of the earth will worship and turn to the LORD; All the families of nations will bow low before you.
29
For kingship belongs to the LORD, the ruler over the nations.
30
9 All who sleep in the earth will bow low before God; All who have gone down into the dust will kneel in homage.
31
And I will live for the LORD; my descendants will serve you.
32
The generation to come will be told of the Lord, that they may proclaim to a people yet unborn the deliverance you have brought.

Peace be with you

 

[son_of_Our_Lady]

What you mean by knowledge of good and evil?

Well, what do you mean by knowledge of good and evil? It was your question in the first place.

Peace be with you

 

[davidmammola]

Khalfan,
The Bible clearly teaches that Adam knew that he was supposed to obey God. God can therefore legitimately hold Adam accountable for his action. Genesis 2:17 says that God told Adam not to eat of the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Sin is deliberate disobedience to God. Adam in fact sinned. He had free will and chose to abuse it by disobeying God. If he did not know that it was wrong to disobey God before the Fall, then he would not have needed a tempter in the first place. Adam would have simply eaten the apple on his own out of ignorance (just as he ate the fruit from the other tress without thinking about it).

If you want to know where the Bible says that Adam sinned, read Genesis 3:17, Romans 5:12-14, and 1 Corinthians 15:22 (to name a few instances). In Genesis 3:17, God holds Adam accountable for an action because Adam has willfully disobeyed God. An all-good, all-just God would not hold someone accountable for an action done out of invincible ignorance. How do I know this? How can I prove this from the Bible? While the Bible often speaks about the consequences of sin affecting other people besides the sinner, the Bible also teaches that God will only hold people accountable for the sins they themselves commit because God is a just God (see Ezekiel 18).

As other posts have indicated, the knowledge of good and evil received after the Fall was an experiential knowledge, whereas before it was mere intellectual knowledge. Adam already knew the obligation he to obey God, but he had never experienced evil until he sinned.

 

[MHalsey]

khalfan,
We need to put this debate to rest. You mentioned in another thread that you received your education of Islam from leading scholars. Well, most people posting here do not qualify as such. At least I know I don’t. Therefore I will give you what the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches on the subject of Adam and Eve. This is based on the conclusions of biblical scholars and theologians. Take it or leave it. But if you are honest wanting to truly learn about the catholic faith, then you need to start by being honest in your search. That means learning from true Bible scholars, not posters on a Catholic forum.

Anyway, here is what the Catechism has to say about the discussion:

396
God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” spells this out: “for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die.” The “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.

Man’s first sin

397
Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of. All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.

398
In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to “be like God,” but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God.”

And for the rest of us

402
All men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as St. Paul affirms: “By one man’s disobedience many [that is, all men] were made sinners”: “sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned. . . .” The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. “Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.”

403
Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination toward evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam’s sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the “death of the soul.” Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.

404
How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man.” By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed”—a state and not an act.

 

[Khalfan]

She was fully capable to face ANY evil (temptation) because she was given explicit command to not do as God told her not to do.

The ONLY thing required to choose one thing over another is simply to will it (to choose it).

She had all the “guidance” she needed, in God’s direct commands. All she needed to do was simply ask God, at any time, and He would have counseled her as to what His command would be.

But she CHOSE to take counsel of one of God’s creatures, who was “cool” and had appealing form and words, over simply asking God, who was never far off.

She was not guided how to face temptation. Let me explain. Temptation is like misguiding us. Anyone can misguide us regarding anything. It depends upon our intelligence that, if we are able to understand right and wrong, the temptation won’t effect us. Otherwise we will believe whatever the tempter said and just follow, like a kid. What makes us intelligence is our knowledge and experience. If we are not intelligent and don’t have knowledge, we won’t be able to understand any command or instruction. That’s why commands doesn’t work with kids.

In the case of Adam and Eve, the knowledge was in the fruit. Before eating the fruit, their mental state was pure innocense, just like any kid.

What was “in” the fruit was the “form” and “taste” of the fruit, which was the form and taste of disobedience to God.

The fruit was not “MAGIC”. It was simply a signal to God, and to man, that man had chosen (willed) “against God’s will”.

The ONLY “knowledge” that the fruit “contained” was the knowledge of what it felt like to disobey God.

Why don’t you just accept,you don’t know what it mean by knowledge of good and evil?

They had no reason to want to “hide themselves” (hide their offense) before their first act of disobedience of God.

After that first disobedient act, that had GOOD reason to hide themselves, don’t you think?

They had enough reason on their body, but they didn’t know it is supposed to be covered. Once they knew, they sewed fig leaves and covered before they hide in the garden.

Yes, she was capable of facing the temptation,and yes, she was guided enough to have chosen not to succumb to the temptation…

I think I answerd already.

I haven’t ignored it,… have I?

Yes. You were afraid to get caught on the knowledge of Adam and Eve. You just wanted to believe they sinned in someway.

Man had not chosen to be like God until then because man hadn’t thought of it yet.

The temptor simply brought up the subject before any other reason arose to bring it up.

Once again, sin was not “created” by man. It was “created”, to misuse the word “created” a bit, by Satan, and it seems rather fitting that Satan should get “credit” for infecting man with it, wouldn’t you say?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

Man wouldn’t have thought of it ever, If man wasn’t created with the potential to sin. Man wouldn’t have thought of it ever, If there wasn’t any tree of good and evil. Man wouldn’t have thought of it ever, If God wouldn’t let serpent to tempt them.

God wanted us to know good and evil. God wanted to test our loyalty. God wanted evil to exist as a choice, so that he may know how many are choosing good. If a DON’T DO command was enough, God wouldn’t ever reveal this much of scriptures instead of some more don’t dos for us.

Adam’s test was just the begenning and all of us are accountable for our choice. We are responsible for our deeds as it said in Eze 18:20. Payment of Jesus dosen’t change anything in our account until we repent, choose to be good and seek forgiveness.

 

[davidmammola]

Of course, if you are trying to use this text to discredit the Bible or Christianity you will have a very hard time doing so.
When a person claims to have found a contradiction in the Scriptures, his interpretation usually stems from a personal bias or a limited understanding of Church teaching, ancient cultures, or the Bible as a whole.

The overall sense of this passage, as well as the way it is understood in the New Testament and by the early Church is clear. Through Adam’s deliberate (freely chosen) disobedience, he committed a serious personal sin, thereby experiencing first hand and for the first time the consequences of evil, the horror of breaking off relationship with a loving God. Suffering, concupiscence, and death entered the world.

Would a just God punish a man who had no culpability? The Bible and the Church teach us that God is just. So Adam was culpable. Once we understand this, we can interpret the story of the Fall correctly.

Reading the Bible in a vacuum (sola scriptura) apart from reason, other relevant passages, and the guidance of the Church leads to errors like those of the original post every time.

 

[Khalfan]

khalfan,
We need to put this debate to rest. You mentioned in another thread that you received your education of Islam from leading scholars. Well, most people posting here do not qualify as such. At least I know I don’t. Therefore I will give you what the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches on the subject of Adam and Eve. This is based on the conclusions of biblical scholars and theologians. Take it or leave it. But if you are honest wanting to truly learn about the catholic faith, then you need to start by being honest in your search. That means learning from true Bible scholars, not posters on a Catholic forum.

Anyway, here is what the Catechism has to say about the discussion:

396
God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” spells this out: “for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die.” The “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.

Man’s first sin

397
Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of. All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.

398
In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to “be like God,” but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God.”

And for the rest of us

402
All men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as St. Paul affirms: “By one man’s disobedience many [that is, all men] were made sinners”: “sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned. . . .” The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. “Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.”

403
Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination toward evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam’s sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the “death of the soul.” Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.

404
How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man.” By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed”—a state and not an act.

**I agree to conclude. But before that let me make sure no one have to say anything other than this. **

Do all of you in this forum, agree on these teachings above?

 

[davidmammola]

Khalfan,
You have not successfully refuted the following logic:

1.) A just being would not punish someone who is not culpable.
2.) The Scriptures and the Church teach that God is just.
3.) The Scriptures and the Church teach that God punished Adam.
4.) Adam must have been culpable for his disobedient action (sin).