Did Adam and Eve know Good and Evil before they ate the fruit?

[MHalsey]

Then it is Good. Adam and Eve learned somthing. Then why God claimed it a sin? Is learning a sin?

You lack one more point here. The evil temptation. Were they guided enough to make the choice? They did know good (obey). But they didn’t know evil (disobey). They evil what they didn’t know about. What was intruction they got if they eat; death. Did they know what is death? No.

I did not say learning is a sin. Disobeying God’s command is. Remember, the ends never justify the means. Learning as a consequence of sinning does not mean the sin is good or that they did not sin in the first place. As in all thing, God can take an evil act and make good come from it. An example would be someone getting pregnant outside of marriage. The act is sinful, but a child created from the sinful act is a blessing.

As for evil temptation, obey and disobey are not descriptors, they are verbs. You can easily explain what obey and disobey are to a person without using its opposite. Obey means do what you are told, and do not do what you are told not to do. Disobey means doing the opposite of what you are told to do or not do.

Whether or not they knew what death was is irrelevant, they knew they were being disobedient.

I gather from your arguments that you think a person needs to have complete knowledge of the consequences before a sin can occur. If that’s true, then none of us can have ever sinned, because none of us have full knowledge of Hell, nor can we even imagine what it is. We can postulate and and hypothesize all day about what we “think” it is, but we cannot have complete knowledge of it.

However, to sin is to consciously and willfully disobey God’s commandments regardless of the consequences.

 

[jack_hawkins]

FFI???

My dear,

I know that they disobeyed. My question is, did they know it is sin? Were they guided how to handle evil temptation? Did they know who is Serpent? Did they know what is death -the result if they eat?

don’t call me my dear, unless you want an Old Testament response
if you can’t use respectful titles…
my response above covers your points
I suggest you go back and read your Holy Scriptures as well

 

[Khalfan]

don’t call me my dear, unless you want an Old Testament response
if you can’t use respectful titles…
my response above covers your points
I suggest you go back and read your Holy Scriptures as well

Thank you.

 

[Khalfan]

Adam and Eve knew the difference between good and evil when they ate of the forbidden fruit in a preceptual rather than experiential manner. Otherwise, their actions would not have been a sin. In other words, Adam and Eve did not know what evil was from experience, but they know what evil was from God’s commandment.

By eating of the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve asserted their right to DETERMINE what is good and evil. It wasn’t so much that they sought to acquire the knowledge of good and evil, but rather, they sought to acquire the authority to determine for themselves what was good and evil. That is why their sin was a sin of pride.

You are right. Their actions would not have been a sin, if they didn’t know evil.

Most of the people in this forum agreed that, they didn’t know evil before they eat the fruit. I don’t know where you came up with such an idea that, they did know evil. Can you give me any reference from the Bible, proving that they did know good and evil before eating the fruit?

We have instructions in the Bible, what to do when we face evil temptation. (James 4:7)

Were Adam and Eve guided, how to face evil temptation? Give me reference from the Bible. I am not looking for interpretation.

 

[Khalfan]

Yes. God didn’t forbid dialogue with the serpent. I believe this is because love requires freedom and God made us and the angels self determined creatures. Evil existed and God did what love required by giving the command to not eat of it. Since Adam and Eve enjoyed the full revelation of God as it pertained to their state of being and also enjoyed the fullness of the gifts of grace to maintain union with God, they were already endowed with the ability to handle temptation.

I think you forgot what you said earlier.

So in light of this reasoning anyway, Adam and Eve were incapable of knowing even a tiny bit of evil. Even if it happened they couldn’t recognize it as such.

How come they were endowed with the ability to handle evil temptation, if they didn’t know even a tiny bit of evil? I think you have to choose your answer;

either they knew evil or

they didn’t know evil.

God punished them for not handling it so we know they were culpable for it. They like Satan had the full revelation of God yet rejected Him. What more could God do? This is the sin against the Holy Spirit. Satan, being created in an eternal state made an eternal decision against God. Man being in a state of ‘becoming’ by the mercy and plan of God could avoid this eternal damnation by being cast out of the garden and not having access to the tree of life.

I know that, they disobeyed God. My question is about the reason behind it.

 

[Khalfan]

I did not say learning is a sin. Disobeying God’s command is. Remember, the ends never justify the means. Learning as a consequence of sinning does not mean the sin is good or that they did not sin in the first place. As in all thing, God can take an evil act and make good come from it. An example would be someone getting pregnant outside of marriage. The act is sinful, but a child created from the sinful act is a blessing.

I agree. I agree that disobeying was sin. But, I think I am discussing the reason behind it. If God is good, all his creation is good, Adam and Eve was good (at creation), what made them to sin?

As for evil temptation, obey and disobey are not descriptors, they are verbs. You can easily explain what obey and disobey are to a person without using its opposite. Obey means do what you are told, and do not do what you are told not to do. Disobey means doing the opposite of what you are told to do or not do.

Again you left to say about evil temptation. Eve was tempted by Serpent. Adam was tempted by evil mind of Eve. We all do face temptation of Devil. James 4:7 says what we have to do when we are tempted. Was this guidence given to Adam? Please give me Bible reference, Not your interpretation.

Whether or not they knew what death was is irrelevant, they knew they were being disobedient.

I gather from your arguments that you think a person needs to have complete knowledge of the consequences before a sin can occur. If that’s true, then none of us can have ever sinned, because none of us have full knowledge of Hell, nor can we even imagine what it is. We can postulate and and hypothesize all day about what we “think” it is, but we cannot have complete knowledge of it.

However, to sin is to consciously and willfully disobey God’s commandments regardless of the consequences.

If I tell you that, **“If you sin, you will kyndi”.**Tell me what you understand from it.

If consequence is irrelevant, God wouldn’t have said ‘If you eat, you will surely die’. That is the only guidence we find in the Bible, that made them to think whether to eat or not.

 

[jamannor]

Did they knew how to handle the temptation of Serpent/Evil?

Even today, sometimes we are helpless in front of evil temptations. We really need help of God to surpass it. We pray for that always. What you do to know, how to face evil temptations? You go to the Bible. What do you find in the Bible?

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

2 John10-11 “If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.”

Prov 10:19 “In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.”

We do find a lot of instructions how to face temptations. Have Adam and Eve had this guidance?

God knows we need this guidance. That’s why he revealed it in the Bible. Did God reveal it to Adam and Eve before eating the fruit?

God gave them everything they needed to know. “You must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.” It was Adam’s cowardliness that allowed Eve and than himself to fall like they did. They knew it was wrong. Adam walked in the Garden with God. All he had to do was ask for God’s help. God had created his partner, God had given him authority to rule over all living creatures including the serpent. That is an amazing thing!

 

[MHalsey]

From your original post:

GOD said ‘NOW man become knowing good and evil’. I think, before eating the fruit, Adam and eve didn’t know good and evil. Because knowledge of Good was in the fruit as per Genesis 2:9 and 17. In both case, whether they did know or didn’t know good, they didn’t know what evil and its temptation is. How could Adam and eve be responsible for what they did, which they didn’t know that it is a sin, since it was the result of the temptation of serpent and Adam or Eve didn’t know how to handle the evil temptation? How could GOD consider them as sinners for something that they didn’t know?

You say they had no direction, so they cannot have sinned, and use James as your example:

James 4:7, “So submit yourselves to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

King David also didn’t have this guidance. Are you saying he also did not sin? After all, he had no idea he would lose his son as a result.

I think what you are doing is taking this passage out of context. Nowhere does the Bible say Adam would not be tempted. But here’s the deal, the Serpent calls God a liar. They listen to the lies of the serpent instead of the truth from God. But that in and of itself not the sin. The sin is disobedience or going against God’s command. So sure, it would have been great for them to have this piece of wisdom from James, but sin as a result of temptation is still sin, whether you’re aware of the temptation or not.

 

[MHalsey]

If I tell you that, **“If you sin, you will kyndi”.**Tell me what you understand from it.

If consequence is irrelevant, God wouldn’t have said ‘If you eat, you will surely die’. That is the only guidence we find in the Bible, that made them to think whether to eat or not.

Well, I understand you are not God and I don’t really need to understand it.

What I mean is, if God gives a command, breaking that command is sufficient for sin. Knowledge of consequence doesn’t matter with regard to sin. God does not tell us what will happen if we break any of the ten commandments.

 

[Benadam]

quote=Khalfan;2173354]I think you forgot what you said earlier

.

I didn’t forget.

How come they were endowed with the ability to handle evil temptation, if they didn’t know even a tiny bit of evil? I think you have to choose your answer;

both are true when you consider that Adam and Eve were in the state of Original Innocense and enjoyed the gift of Original Grace. Knowledge in it’s deepest expression is a union of likeness. Nothing in Paradise bore the likeness of evil, neither did Adam and Eve. Tell me, how can one know evil having never seen or experienced it’s manifestation and without possessing it’s likeness? Adam and Eve did not have to know evil in order to avoid evil. Remember they were not born with the tendency to disobey God. there was no such thing as concupiscense. They were not slaves to sin as we are, they enjoyed complete freedom of will.

either they knew evil or

they didn’t know evil.

They knew no evil

I know that, they disobeyed God. My question is about the reason behind it.

it’s very simple. They disobeyed God because Eve was beguiled by the serpent about God and God’s command and Adam because the voice of his wife was put before the voice of God. They chose to sin for different reasons.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MHalsey forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif

I did not say learning is a sin. Disobeying God’s command is. Remember, the ends never justify the means. Learning as a consequence of sinning does not mean the sin is good or that they did not sin in the first place. As in all thing, God can take an evil act and make good come from it. An example would be someone getting pregnant outside of marriage. The act is sinful, but a child created from the sinful act is a blessing.
I agree. I agree that disobeying was sin. But, I think I am discussing the reason behind it. If God is good, all his creation is good, Adam and Eve was good (at creation), what made them to sin?

God created Satan as a good being, with free will, and by the abuse of his free will Satan became evil.

Adam and Eve had not sinned in the garden, of their own volition, because they were incapable of doing so. They had no reason to disobey God.

Satan convinced Eve that she should sin by a bald-faced lie (Gen3:4, You will not DIE!) which made the option of disobeying God attractive, which she then chose.

So, the short answer is that Satan, a previous creation of God who “invented” evil, gave Eve a reason to sin, which she did, and she gave Adam a reason to sin, which he did.

Quote:

As for evil temptation, obey and disobey are not descriptors, they are verbs. You can easily explain what obey and disobey are to a person without using its opposite. Obey means do what you are told, and do not do what you are told not to do. Disobey means doing the opposite of what you are told to do or not do.
Again you left to say about evil temptation. Eve was tempted by Serpent. Adam was tempted by evil mind of Eve. We all do face temptation of Devil. James 4:7 says what we have to do when we are tempted. Was this guidence given to Adam? Please give me Bible reference, Not your interpretation.

No, God didn’t give this advice to Adam and Eve, because there was no need to do so. The reason being that God would have to explain “good and evil” and the concept of sin, which would do to Adam and Eve exactly the same thing as “eating of the apple” actually did.

Man was simply “supposed” to not touch the Tree, and live in the Garden. That was God’s command. Very simple. Just don’t do it!

No reasons are given, other than it would cause “death”, which to Adam and Eve meant NOTHING other than it was probably BAD because it “sounded” like an admonishment.

The serpent (Satan) was allowed onto the earth because God had given him free will, as He had all other “sapient” creatures.

Man was allowed to do Satan’s will, incurring the punishment of “death” (Gen3:3).

Quote:

Whether or not they knew what death was is irrelevant, they knew they were being disobedient.

I gather from your arguments that you think a person needs to have complete knowledge of the consequences before a sin can occur. If that’s true, then none of us can have ever sinned, because none of us have full knowledge of Hell, nor can we even imagine what it is. We can postulate and and hypothesize all day about what we “think” it is, but we cannot have complete knowledge of it.

However, to sin is to consciously and willfully disobey God’s commandments regardless of the consequences.
If I tell you that, **“If you sin, you will kyndi”.**Tell me what you understand from it.

If consequence is irrelevant, God wouldn’t have said ‘If you eat, you will surely die’. That is the only guidence we find in the Bible, that made them to think whether to eat or not.

When God says, “Don’t do this or you’ll !”, where you don’t know what is other than it’s NOT GOOD, you know you shouldn’t do it.

A person doesn’t need to know what is as long as God specifically says, “Don’t do this!”,… but the GRATUITOUS “…or you’ll !”, was added to show that He loved us enough to be emphatic about His command.

In other words, it was a loving and unnecessary “nicety” for our benefit, and not a “hint” that God NEEDS to explain Himself or His commands for us be obligated to do them.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Valke2]

The serpent told no lies.

 

[Keikiolu]

The serpent told no lies.

Hmmmm…

How’s that?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Did Adam and Eve knew good and Evil before they eat the fruit? Bible doesn’t say they knew.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” (SIV)

GOD said ‘NOW man become knowing good and evil’. I think, before eating the fruit, Adam and eve didn’t know good and evil. Because knowledge of Good was in the fruit as per Genesis 2:9 and 17. In both case, whether they did know or didn’t know good, they didn’t know what evil and its temptation is. How could Adam and eve be responsible for what they did, which they didn’t know that it is a sin, since it was the result of the temptation of serpent and Adam or Eve didn’t know how to handle the evil temptation? How could GOD consider them as sinners for something that they didn’t know?

It’s really simple. God put them in the Garden and gave them ONE rule. DON’T eat from THAT tree. You can eat as much as you want from ever other tree in the Garden, but don’t touch THAT one or you will DIE. (PD paraphrase, see Genesis 2:16-17)

God said DON’T. They did. And kids have been disobeying their parents ever since.

 

[MHalsey]

No, God didn’t give this advice to Adam and Eve, because there was no need to do so. The reason being that God would have to explain “good and evil” and the concept of sin, which would do to Adam and Eve exactly the same thing as “eating of the apple” actually did.

another point, let’s say God does warn them.
**God **- …Oh and Adam, now that you and Eve are happy here, I should warn you, there’s an evil being lurking about that will try and tempt you. He’s called Satan or the Devil.
**Adam **- I don’t understand. I named all the creatures here, and I don’t remember naming one of them, Satan.
**God **- well I created him a long before I created you. He was beautiful, but then he got the notion he was better, …look it’s a long story. James said, “Resist him and he will flee”.
**Adam **- Who’s James?
**God **- oops.

The point I’m trying to make here is, how many of us would recognize the devil when we’re tempted? Sometimes it’s obvious, but many times it’s not so obvious. Satan is a crafty deceiver. Having never been tempted before, would Eve or Adam recognized the serpent testing them?

**Adam **- this is the serpent, not this Devil person God mentioned.
**Eve **- You’re right. And he is one of the most intelligent here in the garden. Maybe he knows what he’s talking about.

 

[MHalsey]

I… but don’t touch THAT one or you will DIE. (PD paraphrase, see Genesis 2:16-17)

Technically, God didn’t say that. Eve added that when talking with the serpent. Which is why their eyes were not opened until they actually ate the fruit.

But you’re right. As I said before, sin is breaking God’s commandments, not simply following temptation.

 

[Valke2]

Hmmmm…

How’s that?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

Look at what the serpent says. Where is there a lie? THe only one telling lies is Eve. She lies (really to herself) in order to lay the groundwork for rationalizing eating from the tree. She tells the serpent that God said they would die if they touched the fruit. This was not the case.

So when she touches the fruit and doesn’t die, its easier for her to believe that it is ok to eat the fruit. “I didn’t die when I touched the fruit,so I won’t die when I eat it.”

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif *Hmmmm…*How’s that?

​

Look at what the serpent says. Where is there a lie?

Satan said, “You will not die.”

She would not have died if she had obeyed God. The cause of her dying was that she disobeyed God.

She did die.

Satan lied.

THe only one telling lies is Eve. She lies (really to herself) in order to lay the groundwork for rationalizing eating from the tree. She tells the serpent that God said they would die if they touched the fruit. This was not the case.

Gen2:17 - “[God said] …but of the tree of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat it you shall die.”

Gen3:3 - “[Eve to Serpent] …but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.”

Did she die? Yes. Would she have died had she not “touched/eaten”? No.

So when she touches the fruit and doesn’t die, its easier for her to believe that it is ok to eat the fruit. “I didn’t die when I touched the fruit,so I won’t die when I eat it.”

God didn’t NEED to explain ANYTHING more than she was not to touch the fruit, and there is NO excuse for not doing what God says to do. Period.

Whether she “believed” it was OK, at ANY point, to not do what God had told her to do, is irrelevant to anything whatsoever.

She touched the fruit and died (at some point after having done so).

She was told by God that that would happen.

She told Satan what God had said.

Only Satan lied.

Why would you like it if Eve had lied?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Valke2]

Satan said, “You will not die.”

She would not have died if she had obeyed God. The cause of her dying was that she disobeyed God.

She did die.

Satan lied.

Gen2:17 - “[God said] …but of the tree of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat it you shall die.”

Gen3:3 - “[Eve to Serpent] …but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.”

Did she die? Yes. Would she have died had she not “touched/eaten”? No.

God didn’t NEED to explain ANYTHING more than she was not to touch the fruit, and there is NO excuse for not doing what God says to do. Period.

Whether she “believed” it was OK, at ANY point, to not do what God had told her to do, is irrelevant to anything whatsoever.

She touched the fruit and died (at some point after having done so).

She was told by God that that would happen.

She told Satan what God had said.

Only Satan lied.

Why would you like it if Eve had lied?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

God does not say you can’t touch it. Eve says that God says that. That is a lie.

God does not kill Adam or Eve for their sin. They do not die after eating from the tree. I think a strong argument can be made that the serpent did not lie.

The real sin here seems to be failure to take respnsibility for one’'s actions.

 

[Keikiolu]

God does not say you can’t touch it. Eve says that God says that. That is a lie.

You are suffering from an extreme form of scrupulosity.

Perhaps God did say that, while God’s “secretary” was out making copies.

Come on. Methinks you protest too much.

God does not kill Adam or Eve for their sin. They do not die after eating from the tree.

God says they will die, and they do just that. Once again your OCD has gotten the better of you.

I think a strong argument can be made that the serpent did not lie.

Make it. I’d love to hear it.

The real sin here seems to be failure to take respnsibility for one’'s actions.

On who’s part? How did those responsible for “sin” not receive the consequences of their “sin”?

It was a sin to eat of the fruit.
It was a sin to try to blame others for their actions.
It was a sin to lie to those who are innocent.

Eve and Adam had not experienced the ways of Satan. Yet they were responsible for their actions, which were to disobey God, for which they paid a hefty price.

Who failed to take responsibility for their actions, and who failed in their responsibility to “mete out” due punishment?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.