Did Adam and Eve know Good and Evil before they ate the fruit?

[Crumpy]

Exactly. They didn’t know what is good and what is evil completly. Did they know even a little bit about evil? I don’t know. can you give a reference from Bible If they knew it?

I don’t have to commit every sin to then “know” that it is wrong. And, I don’t think we have to attribute that to Adam and Eve.

It is so remarkable that we have words coming from them, from the ancient text, that even though probably modernized, still show us that Adam and Eve are portrayed as thinking people exactly like ourselves.

They are depicted with intelligence and communication skills.

I’ll admit that the text is probably much more complicated than a lot of like to admit. But, if Adam and Eve were not like us, capable of discernment, then the text loses its power.

Likewise, whatever is lost in translation and such, it seems hard to come to any other conclusion, except that God warned them, which should have been enough.

This actually fits in quite well with a point that Dr. Scott Hahn was making in some program early this morning on EWTN. He was talking about God’s covenant in Jesus’ blood, and said that we should not fear God so much as we should fear sin.

Sin does not break a law, he said, rather it is we who are broken on the law. If Adam and Eve did not have a reason to fear God, they had a reason to fear the law, but they ignored that due to temptation. Hahn’s insight is quite interesting.

 

[Benadam]

God does not say you can’t touch it. Eve says that God says that. That is a lie.

they took responsibility for their actions. They did it by making their every effort a means to return to God. A sign of this families holiness was Adam’s grandson who walked with God and didn’t experience death but was taken up body and soul to God. I think that kind of end to our stay on earth was the original plan.

 

[Valke2]

they took responsibility for their actions. They did it by making their every effort a means to return to God. A sign of this families holiness was Adam’s grandson who walked with God and didn’t experience death but was taken up body and soul to God. I think that kind of end to our stay on earth was the original plan.

In the story itself, they try to hide their sin from God, and when confronted, Adam blames Eve and Eve blames the serpent. The only one who doesn’t try to blame anyone else is the serpent.

As for how their extended family acted, you have to be rather selective in your reading to conclude they made every effort to return to God. Ignoring Cain and God’s decision to flood the earth.

 

[Benadam]

In the story itself, they try to hide their sin from God, and when confronted, Adam blames Eve and Eve blames the serpent.

you are right, they didn’t offer God what could be called a good confession.

The only one who doesn’t try to blame anyone else is the serpent.

well, in Cain and Able and the rest of Adam and Eve’s children ( not defineable as an extended family). We do see indications of their progress. When Cain was born Eve said " I have got me a man with the help of God" By the time she bore Seth she had grown in holiness and it is evident in her changed view in regards of her relationships with God and her children. She said when Seth was born, " The Lord has granted me another offspring" See the difference? She is no longer the creator and possessor of her child, God isn’t her helper and her child isn’t referred to as a ‘man’ but her offspring. How do you suppose her outlook effected Cain?..who became a murderer, verses the maternal care Seth received who was the first man to invoke God’s name. We can’t even imagine what the loss of perfection would be like let alone experience the guilt attached to being responsible for an age of brokeness.

 

[Khalfan]

God gave them everything they needed to know. “You must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.” It was Adam’s cowardliness that allowed Eve and than himself to fall like they did. They knew it was wrong. Adam walked in the Garden with God. All he had to do was ask for God’s help. God had created his partner, God had given him authority to rule over all living creatures including the serpent. That is an amazing thing!

You are right. They were instructed not to eat. They knew it is wrong to disobey God’s command. They lived according to that command until Serpent entered to the scene. They had the choice to disobey even before Serpent enters. But they choose not to disobey.

As soon as Serpent came, they changed their mind. Why?

It is here, the importance of misguidance of Serpent pops up. Did they know who Serpent is? No. Did they know what to do, when Serpent misguides? No. Why God didn’t guide them?

You said the only instruction given to them was ‘when you eat of it you will surely die’ and it was enough. Did they know what death is? No. Why God didn’t explain them, what he is talking about?

 

[Khalfan]

From your original post:

You say they had no direction, so they cannot have sinned, and use James as your example:

James 4:7, “So submit yourselves to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

King David also didn’t have this guidance. Are you saying he also did not sin? After all, he had no idea he would lose his son as a result.

I did not say, they didn’t sin. They indeed disobeyed. But GOD had no point to claim it a sin which inherited the entire humanity, requred serious punishment which no man could ever afford and later GOD himself had to come down and die as payment.

If I do a sin which I don’t know, it is a sin, I will repent and ask GOD for forgivness. God may forgive or may not. That is his choice. I believe God is mercyful and a forgiver. He will forgive me. Adam, David, all are the same.

I think what you are doing is taking this passage out of context. Nowhere does the Bible say Adam would not be tempted. But here’s the deal, the Serpent calls God a liar. They listen to the lies of the serpent instead of the truth from God. But that in and of itself not the sin. The sin is disobedience or going against God’s command. So sure, it would have been great for them to have this piece of wisdom from James, but sin as a result of temptation is still sin, whether you’re aware of the temptation or not.

I think you lost in it. All you said is related to the knowledge of evil and they haven’t had that before eating the fruit. If you say they had the knowledge, I want you to prove it with the reference of Bible. That is what this forum about.

You said ‘it would have been great for them to have this piece of wisdom from James’. If evil temptation can be controled by wisdom of james, (to submit to God) why God didn’t reveal it to Adam and Eve? Were God purposefully wanted to make man sinner by keeping them unaware of temptation?

 

[Khalfan]

Well, I understand you are not God and I don’t really need to understand it.

What I mean is, if God gives a command, breaking that command is sufficient for sin. Knowledge of consequence doesn’t matter with regard to sin. God does not tell us what will happen if we break any of the ten commandments.

Got confused, nhaaaaa?

I tell you again. If consequence is irrelevant, God wouldn’t have said ‘If you eat, you will surely die’. That is the only guidence we find in the Bible, that made them to think whether to eat or not. Could Adam and Eve understand this instruction completely?

Did they understand what is death? They never knew what is death since they didn’t know or experience evil. They didn’t understand even the only instruction they got from God.

Jesus said what will happen to you if you break the commandmends. You will lose eternal life.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

As you said, may be it was an act of evil. But did they knew, what they are doing is evil? that is my question.

I do not believe that they did. All they knew was intimacy with God. I’ve always had a bit of a problem with the notion of “moral theology”. It’s sort of the same problem I have with celebrating ones first confession. What exactly does one celebrate?

Doesn’t St. Paul observe that without the law there is no sin? If so, does it not follow that until the law was broken there was no sin and hence no moral theology and hence no knowledge of good and evil?

CDL

 

[jack_hawkins]

disobedience is disobedience
the knowledge of the consequences is irrelevant, no matter what word games (and to what ends) Khalfan plays…
Adam and Eve knowingly disobeyed
sin is disobedience to God
that’s not any room for any amibvalence there as for as I’m concerned:thumbsup:

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Adam and Eve were created with sanctifying grace.

One of the attributes to sanctifying graces is that it inclines a soul to do good and to do God’s will.

It couldn’t do that without at least giving a soul the knowledge of what was good.

So Could it be that Adam and Eve before the serpent came to them had knowledge of only good and it was only after the ser-pent presented them evil that they had any knowledge of evil?

 

[Khalfan]

.

I didn’t forget.

both are true when you consider that Adam and Eve were in the state of Original Innocense and enjoyed the gift of Original Grace. Knowledge in it’s deepest expression is a union of likeness. Nothing in Paradise bore the likeness of evil, neither did Adam and Eve. Tell me, how can one know evil having never seen or experienced it’s manifestation and without possessing it’s likeness? Adam and Eve did not have to know evil in order to avoid evil. Remember they were not born with the tendency to disobey God. there was no such thing as concupiscense. They were not slaves to sin as we are, they enjoyed complete freedom of will.

They knew no evil

Thank you for agreeing they weren’t knew evil.

You asked ‘how can one know evil having never seen or experienced it’s manifestation and without possessing it’s likeness?’ This is what the whole point of my discussion. They never knew evil. They didn’t know what they were doing is a sin. They were clearly misguided by Serpent. They were in a state of innocense that, they may believe anyone. Specially Serpent, since they didn’t know, if serpent is belong to God or not.

it’s very simple. They disobeyed God because Eve was beguiled by the serpent about God and God’s command and Adam because the voice of his wife was put before the voice of God. They chose to sin for different reasons.

It is not that simple my dear. How do we choose when you have choices of good and bad? We use our knowledge and free will. How do you expect Adam and Eve to make the perfect choice without the knowledge of good and bad?

They disobeyed God but out of ignorance.

 

[Khalfan]

God created Satan as a good being, with free will, and by the abuse of his free will Satan became evil.

Adam and Eve had not sinned in the garden, of their own volition, because they were incapable of doing so. They had no reason to disobey God.

Satan convinced Eve that she should sin by a bald-faced lie (Gen3:4, You will not DIE!) which made the option of disobeying God attractive, which she then chose.

So, the short answer is that Satan, a previous creation of God who “invented” evil, gave Eve a reason to sin, which she did, and she gave Adam a reason to sin, which he did.

I agree.

No, God didn’t give this advice to Adam and Eve, because there was no need to do so. The reason being that God would have to explain “good and evil” and the concept of sin, which would do to Adam and Eve exactly the same thing as “eating of the apple” actually did.

Exactly. It was not a sin. Instead, God was teaching them something which they and the entire mankind will have to use to make decisions, to choose between good and evil. Those who choose good will be rewarded and those who choose evil will go to hell fire. That was the whole plan of God.

Man was simply “supposed” to not touch the Tree, and live in the Garden. That was God’s command. Very simple. Just don’t do it!

And they did, until Serpent come. Once Serpent came They didn’t know who is it, if he belong to God or against God, If he is good or evil. Adam and Eve believed whatever Serpent told them. They were unable to define, what they were doing, if it is a sin or good. They were unable to seperate good and evil because the knowledge was in the fruit. What they did was a part of the teaching of God as you said earlier.

No reasons are given, other than it would cause “death”, which to Adam and Eve meant NOTHING other than it was probably BAD because it “sounded” like an admonishment.

The serpent (Satan) was allowed onto the earth because God had given him free will, as He had all other “sapient” creatures.

Man was allowed to do Satan’s will, incurring the punishment of “death” (Gen3:3).

When God says, “Don’t do this or you’ll !”, where you don’t know what is other than it’s NOT GOOD, you know you shouldn’t do it.

The point is, the warning of consiquence didn’t make any difference in them because they didn’t know what death is. Because of that, they believed whatever Serpent said. They couldn’t recognise, if it was right or wrong.

A person doesn’t need to know what is as long as God specifically says, “Don’t do this!”,… but the GRATUITOUS “…or you’ll !”, was added to show that He loved us enough to be emphatic about His command.

In other words, it was a loving and unnecessary “nicety” for our benefit, and not a “hint” that God NEEDS to explain Himself or His commands for us be obligated to do them.

If I tell you ‘Don’t do that, if you do, you will be… (Or an anonymous word to you )’, will you accept it just as it is, or will you think what is that blank or the meaning of that anonymous word I used. You will certainly ask me clear what I am saying. Until I clear it to you, my command is incomplete. How far any incomplete command can help you in your life?

This is what happened to Adam and Eve. They knew they should not eat the fruit. So they didn’t eat it until Serpent came. Once the serpent came they didn’t know what to do and they believed what the serpent said. If test of human desires was the plan of God, God wouldn’t allow Serpent to enter the garden and to temp Adam and Eve. But God did allow Serpent to enter and to tempt, while knowing, Adam and Eve doesn’t know how to deal with Serpent and its temptation. If god himself is responsible for the fall of man, how could he claim punishment for something that happened out of ignorance?

 

[Khalfan]

It’s really simple. God put them in the Garden and gave them ONE rule. DON’T eat from THAT tree. You can eat as much as you want from ever other tree in the Garden, but don’t touch THAT one or you will DIE. (PD paraphrase, see Genesis 2:16-17)

God said DON’T. They did. And kids have been disobeying their parents ever since.

Thank you. Please read all discussion before you answer. You will realise it is not that simple.

 

[jack_hawkins]

Thank you. Please read all discussion before you answer. You will realise it is not that simple.

oh but it is

 

[Khalfan]

oh but it is

Hi Jack.

 

[jack_hawkins]

Hi Jack.

Hi
care to address my refutations?

 

[Khalfan]

I don’t have to commit every sin to then “know” that it is wrong. And, I don’t think we have to attribute that to Adam and Eve.

If I understand you correctly, they didn’t know it is sis before eating the fruit.

It is so remarkable that we have words coming from them, from the ancient text, that even though probably modernized, still show us that Adam and Eve are portrayed as thinking people exactly like ourselves.

They are depicted with intelligence and communication skills.

I’ll admit that the text is probably much more complicated than a lot of like to admit. But, if Adam and Eve were not like us, capable of discernment, then the text loses its power.

Do you agree, Genesis doesn’t give correct information? I agree with you, but Bible does say what you said. You said they did know good and evil. They could make decision. But Bible says they knew good and evil only after eating the fruit. They got their eyes open only after eating the fruit.

Likewise, whatever is lost in translation and such, it seems hard to come to any other conclusion, except that God warned them, which should have been enough.

Do we really have to compromise with what we have in scripture, even if it doesn’t make any sense to us?

This actually fits in quite well with a point that Dr. Scott Hahn was making in some program early this morning on EWTN. He was talking about God’s covenant in Jesus’ blood, and said that we should not fear God so much as we should fear sin.

Sin does not break a law, he said, rather it is we who are broken on the law. If Adam and Eve did not have a reason to fear God, they had a reason to fear the law, but they ignored that due to temptation. Hahn’s insight is quite interesting.

If it is a man who knows good and evil. But the case of Adam and Eve according to Genesis is different.

 

[Valke2]

In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve impose their own will over God’s. They take complete ownership of the Garden. By possessing and imposing their will on everything, including the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They assert control according to their wishes. Not God’s.

And so we have the laws of kashrut. Laws that impose certain obligations on us in what we are permitted to eat. It is an opportunity to address the sins in the garden of eden. By recognizing that we are limited in asserting control over this world. We can not assume complete ownership over everything. This is demonstrated in the prohibitions against eating certain foods.

It is also demonstrated in the laws regarding fruit trees in Israel. When an Israelite plants a tree for the purpose of bearing fruit, they are not permitted to eat from the tree for three seasons. (Fruit trees were created on the third day). On the fourth year of fruit bearing, the fruit belongs to God and was given to the temple or eaten in conjunction with holy days only. Another example of acknowledging God’s ownership. Only on the fifth season can the farmer use the produce for his own use.

Similarly, every 7th year is a Sabbatical year in which all the land must remain unharvested. Again, showing that we do not assert complete ownership over the land, that it belongs to God and that even the land is entitled to a Sabbath. To return it to its natural state. To return it to a kind of Eden.

 

[Mintaka]

No human living today knows, for certain, what would happen to a human being who stepped out into space without a spacesuit on.

Among hundreds of astronauts and cosmonauts, all of whom have been adventurous and curious as well as intelligent, not one person has tried the experiment.

They do not have an intimate knowledge of what would happen. They do not have an experiential knowledge of what would happen. They have a pretty good idea of what would happen, though, thanks to human intelligence. Thanks to human wisdom, mutual trust, and obedience to good sense, they just don’t seem to feel any need to try this at home.

Adam and Eve were smarter and wiser than any human alive today. They had God Himself for their teacher and companion. And whether or not they knew exactly what would happen, they had been told that something undesirable would happen.

So you can’t say they erred out of ignorance.

 

[Khalfan]

Adam and Eve were created with sanctifying grace.

One of the attributes to sanctifying graces is that it inclines a soul to do good and to do God’s will.

It couldn’t do that without at least giving a soul the knowledge of what was good.

So Could it be that Adam and Eve before the serpent came to them had knowledge of only good and it was only after the ser-pent presented them evil that they had any knowledge of evil?

Yes. This is what we read in Genesis. Which means, they didn’t know evil, they didn’t know its temptation, they didn’t its consequense. How possibly they could know, what they are doing is a sin? How possibly they could recognise Serpent’s temptation is against God? How God could claim it a sin, while they were not guided, how to deal with the evil temptation?