Did Adam and Eve know Good and Evil before they ate the fruit?

[rciadan]

I think the point is being missed here is a big way and it is simple, as Jack has stated.

In Genesis 2:17 God has warned Adam that “what day soever thou shalt eat of it thou shalt die the death.”

When they ate of this fruit they died, period. That day, just as God had warned them. God did not lie or sugarcoat it.

The analagy of the two boys and the room is a poor one for it does not state that when the father returned he found them in the throes of death as is what happened in Paradise.

Adam and Eve had died the death the same day they ate of the fruit and it had nothing to do with them knowing the difference between good and evil. Discovering the difference is what killed them.

Two things happened in Paradise that day. First, willfull disobedience with full knowledge that it was, in fact, disobedience even if they did not realise it was evil. Two, immediate death as a resultof the disobedience. Not because of it, but as a result of. If I warn my child not to eat poison and the child does so anyhow dies, it is not because of the disobedience that the chiild dies; but rather, as a direct result of having ingested poison.

 

[nsoli2100]

The serpent told no lies.

The serpent told her she would not die if she ate it. This was a lie.

 

[nsoli2100]

I’m simply amazed and ashamed that no one has mentioned this verse from 1st Timothy yet:

“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.” 1 Timothy 2:12-14

Or this one from 2 Corinthians:

“But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.” 2 cor 11:3

In conclusion, the answer has all along been right there in Scripture for anyone who cared to look, rather than rant and rave with opinions. Eve was deceived; Adam was not. Adam chose to follow his wife into sin, although he was not deceived. Thank you.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valke2 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
God does not say you can’t touch it. Eve says that God says that. That is a lie.

You are suffering from an extreme form of scrupulosity.

Perhaps God did say that, while God’s “secretary” was out making copies.

Come on. Methinks you protest too much.

I think I TOTALLY goofed, badly, and not-nicely I might add, on “diagnosing” scrupulosity in this case.

I thought scrupulosity simply meant “nit-picky in the extreme”, which it doesn’t…!!

Methinks ME protests too much…!! Perhaps I’m being a bit OCD about things,… mai oui…!?

I suppose I really should read the linked definition of what I’m calling someone, don’tcha S’POSE…!?

D’Uh…

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea “biggy” culpa…!

I do still think Valke is being more than a bit “nit-picky” about this whole “let’s blame it on the chick and give Satan a pass” thing, though.

Love you all, e aloha kaua…!

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[MHalsey]

Got confused, nhaaaaa?

I tell you again. If consequence is irrelevant, God wouldn’t have said ‘If you eat, you will surely die’. That is the only guidence we find in the Bible, that made them to think whether to eat or not. Could Adam and Eve understand this instruction completely?

Did they understand what is death? They never knew what is death since they didn’t know or experience evil. They didn’t understand even the only instruction they got from God.

Jesus said what will happen to you if you break the commandmends. You will lose eternal life.

How is this different from “you shall surely die”? I have no experience of eternal life. No absolute physical knowledge. Only belief.

There is more to it than simple confusion or deception. If they were confused, they could have asked God about it first, or even talked it over. Instead Eve walks right over to the tree.

They indeed disobeyed. But GOD had no point to claim it a sin which inherited the entire humanity…

Is this the point of your post? If so, it goes beyond what anyone is discussing here.

 

[MHalsey]

I’m simply amazed and ashamed that no one has mentioned this verse from 1st Timothy yet:

“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.” 1 Timothy 2:12-14

Or this one from 2 Corinthians:

“But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.” 2 cor 11:3

In conclusion, the answer has all along been right there in Scripture for anyone who cared to look, rather than rant and rave with opinions. Eve was deceived; Adam was not. Adam chose to follow his wife into sin, although he was not deceived. Thank you.

Excellent!!

I’d also like to add that their eyes were not opened until Adam ate. Even Eve’s eyes were not opened until then.

Gen Ch 3, vs 6,7 - So she took some of its fruit and ate it; and she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. Then the eyes of both of them were opened…

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif

God created Satan as a good being, with free will, and by the abuse of his free will Satan became evil.

Adam and Eve had not sinned in the garden, of their own volition, because they were incapable of doing so. They had no reason to disobey God.

Satan convinced Eve that she should sin by a bald-faced lie (Gen3:4, You will not DIE!) which made the option of disobeying God attractive, which she then chose.

So, the short answer is that Satan, a previous creation of God who “invented” evil, gave Eve a reason to sin, which she did, and she gave Adam a reason to sin, which he did.
I agree.

Quote:

No, God didn’t give this advice to Adam and Eve, because there was no need to do so. The reason being that God would have to explain “good and evil” and the concept of sin, which would do to Adam and Eve exactly the same thing as “eating of the apple” actually did.
Exactly. It was not a sin. Instead, God was teaching them something which they and the entire mankind will have to use to make decisions, to choose between good and evil. Those who choose good will be rewarded and those who choose evil will go to hell fire. That was the whole plan of God.

You SEEM to be implying that Eve and Adam didn’t in fact sin by eating of the fruit.

I contend that that act WAS a sin (the first one of mankind but not the first sin ever as Satan sinned before man did) as a sin is defined as “disobedience of God”.

The fact that God didn’t explain the reasoning behind His command didn’t give man a “right” to sin.

God is under no compulsion to explain His commands.

In response to man’s sin, chosen by free will, God mercifully granted to teach us that disobedience is BAD, as opposed to simply anihilating us and starting over from scratch, possibly repeatedly, until we got it right.

So, to recap, man did sin by eating of the fruit because it was a direct disobedience of God’s command, and God showed us His mercy in TEACHING us instead of DESTROYING us.

Quote:

Man was simply “supposed” to not touch the Tree, and live in the Garden. That was God’s command. Very simple. Just don’t do it!
And they did, until Serpent come. Once Serpent came They didn’t know who is it, if he belong to God or against God, If he is good or evil. **Adam and Eve believed whatever Serpent told them. They were unable to define, what they were doing, if it is a sin or good. **

That’s where you’re wrong.

Man (Eve and Adam) knew they were not to eat of the tree. To do so, regardless of ANY reasoning to the contrary, is disobedience, which is sin.

It’s not a matter of whether man knew what good and evil was, or even now IS,… it’s a matter of simply doing what man KNOWS God’s commands are.

God says, “Don’t do it!”, and we simply don’t do it.

Sin comes BEFORE the knowledge of “good and evil”, just as faith comes before reason, and not the other way around, which is what “the world” would have you believe.

They were unable to seperate good and evil because the knowledge was in the fruit. What they did was a part of the teaching of God as you said earlier.

The whole point of the story was that the BEST situation is where faith comes before reason, and the “fall” invariably happens when we put reason before faith.

God’s “teaching” of good and evil (which amounts to ALL of salvation history not JUST the “bite of the fruit”) is simply God’s best and most merciful possible solution to His “problem” of creating for Himself His children who are beings “in the image of” Himself.

Adam and Eve lacked nothing by not eating of the fruit.

What they “got” by eating of the fruit was a BAD characteristic (a negative “thing” that attached itself to them), which did them NO GOOD, and only harm.

This is the key: We are now striving toward what we were originally given for FREE, and man’s eating of the fruit of the tree of G&E was NOTHING BUT A BAD THING.

The only good thing to come out of it was that we discovered that God would rather help us come back to Him that destroy us outright and start over.

…continued–>

 

[Keikiolu]

…continued from above:

Quote:

No reasons are given, other than it would cause “death”, which to Adam and Eve meant NOTHING other than it was probably BAD because it “sounded” like an admonishment.

The serpent (Satan) was allowed onto the earth because God had given him free will, as He had all other “sapient” creatures.

Man was allowed to do Satan’s will, incurring the punishment of “death” (Gen3:3).

When God says, “Don’t do this or you’ll !”, where you don’t know what is other than it’s NOT GOOD, you know you shouldn’t do it.
The point is, the warning of consiquence didn’t make any difference in them because they didn’t know what death is. Because of that, they believed whatever Serpent said. They couldn’t recognise, if it was right or wrong.

Wrong.

It makes no difference what the consequences are, and is no excuse for sin.

A person doesn’t have to recognize that a thing is “right or wrong” if it is specifically commanded to either be done or not be done by God.

Quote:

A person doesn’t need to know what is as long as God specifically says, “Don’t do this!”,… but the GRATUITOUS “…or you’ll !”, was added to show that He loved us enough to be emphatic about His command.

In other words, it was a loving and unnecessary “nicety” for our benefit, and not a “hint” that God NEEDS to explain Himself or His commands for us be obligated to do them.
If I tell you ‘Don’t do that, if you do, you will be… (Or an anonymous word to you )’, will you accept it just as it is, or will you think what is that blank or the meaning of that anonymous word I used. You will certainly ask me clear what I am saying. Until I clear it to you, my command is incomplete. How far any incomplete command can help you in your life?

God gives us what we need, in as complete a form as we need it.

An imperative command is simply to be followed. It is not to be “questioned”.

Man loves to ask questions. Why? Because he is fallen, and no longer lives in the garden, and things need to be clarified because we rely on other men and not only God alone.

In this world, the fallen world, we need to “battle for clarity” with each other, which is God’s way of telling us, “This is what happens when you put yourselves and your fellows above me!”.

In the garden, we had no need of questions because we could always trust God implicitly and completely, and had only Him as a source of wisdom and sustenance.

This is what happened to Adam and Eve. They knew they should not eat the fruit. So they didn’t eat it until Serpent came. Once the serpent came they didn’t know what to do and they believed what the serpent said.

If test of human desires was the plan of God, God wouldn’t allow Serpent to enter the garden and to temp Adam and Eve. But God did allow Serpent to enter and to tempt, while knowing, Adam and Eve doesn’t know how to deal with Serpent and its temptation.

If god himself is responsible for the fall of man, how could he claim punishment for something that happened out of ignorance?

God is NOT responsible for the fall.

Man is responsible. Man’s free will created the fall.

God is not so much “punishing” us,… He is teaching us the consequences of our not following His commandments.

You might want to looking into the concept of “free will” a bit more before carrying on this conversation.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[MHalsey]

I agree.

Exactly. It was not a sin. Instead, God was teaching them something which they and the entire mankind will have to use to make decisions, to choose between good and evil. Those who choose good will be rewarded and those who choose evil will go to hell fire. That was the whole plan of God.

yet in an earlier post you agreed it was a sin. Which is it?

And they did, until Serpent come. Once Serpent came They didn’t know who is it, if he belong to God or against God, If he is good or evil. Adam and Eve believed whatever Serpent told them.

Where is your proof that they believed what the serpent told them. And if that’s true, then they must have been inflamed with the desire to “be like Gods yourselves” as the serpent tells them.

They were unable to define, what they were doing, if it is a sin or good. They were unable to seperate good and evil because the knowledge was in the fruit. What they did was a part of the teaching of God as you said earlier.

This is supposition.

The point is, the warning of consiquence didn’t make any difference in them because they didn’t know what death is. Because of that, they believed whatever Serpent said. They couldn’t recognise, if it was right or wrong.

If I tell you ‘Don’t do that, if you do, you will be… (Or an anonymous word to you )’, will you accept it just as it is, or will you think what is that blank or the meaning of that anonymous word I used. You will certainly ask me clear what I am saying. Until I clear it to you, my command is incomplete. How far any incomplete command can help you in your life?

God had/has the authority to command. I have authority over my children as well. If I tell my child not to do something, I don’t need to fully explain the consequences. Besides, if I did so, I would fall into the “but why?” trap.

This is what happened to Adam and Eve. They knew they should not eat the fruit. So they didn’t eat it until Serpent came. Once the serpent came they didn’t know what to do and they believed what the serpent said. If test of human desires was the plan of God, God wouldn’t allow Serpent to enter the garden and to temp Adam and Eve. But God did allow Serpent to enter and to tempt, while knowing, Adam and Eve doesn’t know how to deal with Serpent and its temptation.

You are claiming a lot about what Adam and Eve thought before they **decided **to disobey God and eat the fruit.

If god himself is responsible for the fall of man, how could he claim punishment for something that happened out of ignorance?

God is not responsible. How do you claim this? It cannot be proven in scripture. Only by your interpretation.

 

[Khalfan]

Hi
care to address my refutations?

Sorry. I didn’t get you.

 

[Crumpy]

Sorry. I didn’t get you.

You know, this thread is getting ridiculous. Everybody in the world accepts that Adam and Eve sinned and God evicted them from the garden.

They were given the rules and they disobeyed. Nothing could be clearer. No other interpretation makes sense.

no amount of arguing is going to change it.

there is no other sense to the story than that they succombed to the temptation of the devil and that they disregarded the rules that God had given them. THAT’S THE STORY IN GENESIS.

You’re going to have a rough time with the rest of the Bible if you don’t buy into that.

 

[Valke2]

there is no other sense to the story than that they succombed to the temptation of the devil and that they disregarded the rules that God had given them. THAT’S THE STORY IN GENESIS.

You’re going to have a rough time with the rest of the Bible if you don’t buy into that.

The story in Genesis makes no mention of a devil.

 

[Nita]

The story in Genesis makes no mention of a devil.

Christians consider the following verse identifying the serpent as the devil as applying to the serpent in the garden also:

*Revelation 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, … *

Nita

 

[Crumpy]

If we don’t accept the common and popular conclusion that Adam and Eve sinned, as many have discussed,

then whatever are we going to do with Cain and Abel?

As other threads have pointed out, how did Cain know how to kill Abel? If it was an accident, why did God punish him and his descendents? Why did God give Cain a mark to protect him.

Honestly the situation is easier to explain with Cain and Abel based on natural law, the law given us by reason that we should respect other’s life.

 

[Valke2]

If we don’t accept the common and popular conclusion that Adam and Eve sinned, as many have discussed,

then whatever are we going to do with Cain and Abel?

As other threads have pointed out, how did Cain know how to kill Abel? If it was an accident, why did God punish him and his descendents? Why did God give Cain a mark to protect him.

Honestly the situation is easier to explain with Cain and Abel based on natural law, the law given us by reason that we should respect other’s life.

Given that God did not take Cain’s life, and reduced his punishment to bearing the mark, it is reasonable to conclude that Cain did not know the complete consequences of his actions, as no one had lost life prior to his murder of Able.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Thank you. Please read all discussion before you answer. You will realise it is not that simple.

What exactly leads you to conclusively state that I did not read all of the discussion before answering?

It was the fruit from the tree that gave them the knowledge of good and evil (Gen 2:16-17, God tells Adam exactly what kind of tree it is.) Adam had no problem with that, there were plenty of other trees from which to eat. It was only when the serpent came and tempted Eve by saying, “Oh, that’s not going to actually KILL you, it’ll actually make you like GOD!” and she freely chose to disobey God’s ONE rule for them because the serpent made it sound like a good idea to do so. If they had previously known evil, they would have known not to listen to the serpent.

 

[paarsurrey]

It was the fruit from the tree that gave them the knowledge of good and evil (Gen 2:16-17, God tells Adam exactly what kind of tree it is.) Adam had no problem with that, there were plenty of other trees from which to eat. It was only when the serpent came and tempted Eve by saying, “Oh, that’s not going to actually KILL you, it’ll actually make you like GOD!” and she freely chose to disobey God’s ONE rule for them because the serpent made it sound like a good idea to do so. If they had previously known evil, they would have known not to listen to the serpent.

Hi
This is all symbolic and those who take it to be literal cannot understand it, problem also arise as GodAllahYHWH’s original Words in the original language have been lost, and hence a lot of contadictions and ambiguities surface. Transliteration has also created problems .
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

 

[Valke2]

I think I TOTALLY goofed, badly, and not-nicely I might add, on “diagnosing” scrupulosity in this case.

I thought scrupulosity simply meant “nit-picky in the extreme”, which it doesn’t…!!

Methinks ME protests too much…!! Perhaps I’m being a bit OCD about things,… mai oui…!?

I suppose I really should read the linked definition of what I’m calling someone, don’tcha S’POSE…!?

D’Uh…

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea “biggy” culpa…!

I do still think Valke is being more than a bit “nit-picky” about this whole “let’s blame it on the chick and give Satan a pass” thing, though.

Love you all, e aloha kaua…!

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

Well, I don’t think Satan was involved in the story at all.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Hi
This is all symbolic and those who take it to be literal cannot understand it, problem also arise as GodAllahYHWH’s original Words in the original language have been lost, and hence a lot of contadictions and ambiguities surface. Transliteration has also created problems .
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

If Adam and Eve are symoblic then so are you and I.

 

[Khalfan]

What exactly leads you to conclusively state that I did not read all of the discussion before answering?

It was the fruit from the tree that gave them the knowledge of good and evil (Gen 2:16-17, God tells Adam exactly what kind of tree it is.) Adam had no problem with that, there were plenty of other trees from which to eat. It was only when the serpent came and tempted Eve by saying, “Oh, that’s not going to actually KILL you, it’ll actually make you like GOD!” and she freely chose to disobey God’s ONE rule for them because the serpent made it sound like a good idea to do so. If they had previously known evil, they would have known not to listen to the serpent.

What do you understand by the ‘knowledge of good and evil’?