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Ed_Silvia
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I guess that could be said of every sin.
And to the OP: Yes, if Adam only knew then what we know now all this trouble may have been avoided.
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MarcoPG
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Therefore I concluded that he didn’t know what spiritual death was, nor what for a mess he would start.I guess that could be said of every sin.
And to the OP: Yes, if Adam only knew then what we know now all this trouble may have been avoided.
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fhansen
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Yes. Not omniscient, not all-wise, but, yes, he had those faculties.
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fhansen
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Yes, the Catechism teaches that, with the first sin, man let trust in his Creator die in his heart. This trust is an aspect of the faith which Jesus came to restore for the purpose of reconciling man with God.They surely had all of these. But they had no knowledge of evil unless it was revealed to them. And evil wasn’t revealed to them, it was a matter of faith. Faith didn’t need to experience death back then. It was a choice of remaining with the Lord or not. We can’t remain, we have to return and then remain.
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fhansen
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But the question still begs to be asked then: if not for Adam’s lack of knowledge, or lack of wisdom, or lack of something, why then did a good creation of God, a being created in His image, according to His wisdom, sin? Why commit an act as foolish as thinking he could be God?
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simpleas
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grannymh
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1.Adam had knowledge of good and evil. 2. Adam can see for himself that the tree has good fruit. 3. Adam can hear for himself the words of Satan. 4. Adam has the ability to make a free will choice. 5. Adam has the ability to think about his choice. 6. Since “mastery of self” did not remove intellect and free will from Adam’s human nature, Adam is still capable of using his intellect and will as he chooses. 7. Therefore, he can intelligently and freely choose to sin.
My apology.
This is the best I can do.
I give up.
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fhansen
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There’s no question about Adam’s ability to choose to sin-and he obviously did so. The question is, if Adam knew then what he knows now, would he have sinned? If Adam has had a change of heart since the Fall, turning back to God, why do you think he did so? What would the difference be? Its one thing to say that Adam had full knowledge of what he was getting himself into, but its another thing to answer the question: why, then, would he do it? Did God accidentally create a purely rebellious or evil Adam?
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MarcoPG
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Exactly fhansen, Adam did not know what good and evil was, he choose to trust evil; to trust, you don’t have to know evil, nor to choose or stay away from it, if it is just about trust.
And I think it is trust that God demanded, not choosing good.
God doesn’t deny our ability to think, he asks to freely choose him, and to choose NOT TO CONSIDER evil because of Him. Intellect doesn’t have to know evil to trust good.
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grannymh
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Some tiny clarifications from the Catholic position…
Catholicism teaches that the “good” of Adam’s choices is actually sharing in the Divine Life of his Maker on earth and in heaven (known as the Beatific Vision). This is the same “good” offered to each human being, including us.
Obviously, trust in God is a good thing.
However, Catholicism teaches that beyond trust, Adam (because he was a human creature) had the obligation to freely live in submission to his (our) Maker. This obligation demanded his (our) obedience to God, Transcendent, Supernatural Pure Spirit without earthly restrictions.
Obviously, when faced with the cleverness of Satan, Adam let his trust in God die in his heart.
Beyond trust or lack of trust one can say that God demands obedience. The truth is that obedience is the only way a human creature can maintain a true relationship with God. This true relationship is known as “living in the State of Sanctifying Grace.”
Obedience is an action which is why Original Sin (disobedience) broke humanity’s relationship with Divinity.
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MarcoPG
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I agree to all that. Sorry if I expressed myself in a way that wasn’t the clearest.Some tiny clarifications from the Catholic position…
Catholicism teaches that the “good” of Adam’s choices is actually sharing in the Divine Life of his Maker on earth and in heaven (known as the Beatific Vision). This is the same “good” offered to each human being, including us.
Obviously, trust in God is a good thing.
However, Catholicism teaches that beyond trust, Adam (because he was a human creature) had the obligation to freely live in submission to his (our) Maker. This obligation demanded his (our) obedience to God, Transcendent, Supernatural Pure Spirit without earthly restrictions.
Obviously, when faced with the cleverness of Satan, Adam let his trust in God die in his heart.
Beyond trust or lack of trust one can say that God demands obedience. The truth is that obedience is the only way a human creature can maintain a true relationship with God. This true relationship is known as “living in the State of Sanctifying Grace.”
Obedience is an action which is why Original Sin (disobedience) broke humanity’s relationship with Divinity.
Obedience is the effect of trust.
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grannymh
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From post 26. Point 1. “Adam had knowledge of good and evil”. That is the best I can do based on the Catholic teaching of human nature. (CCC, 355-356; CCC, 1730-1732) I give up because I am not a mind reader going thousands of years backwards.
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grannymh
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Obedience is the natural obligation of a human creature to a Divine God. While trust is a very important human quality, it per se does not spawn (effect) the obedience owed God.
In the present century of attacks on fundamental doctrines of the Catholic Church – hoping to change Catholicism to meet personal preferences – it is becoming clear that some, not all, Catholics have not had proper education regarding basic Catholicism. Or, not knowing the complete story of Adam and Original Sin, some, not all, Catholics fell for the media splash, a few years back, that Catholics no longer accept some basic truths flowing from the first three chapters of Genesis.
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MarcoPG
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Oh I see, all I was trying to show is Abraham trusted God, he freely obeyed. The blessed Virgin trusted Him, she freely obeyed. It doesn’t take away the possibility of sin, but it is the right choice. The right choice though was to be made on trust alone, because spiritual death wasn’t known to Adam and Eve. But, they trusted the wrong one.
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Ed_Silvia
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Don’t you think its interesting and indicative of Adam’s changed state that after Adam ate the forbidden fruit (tree of knowledge of good & evil)? Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
So can we agree that Adam had knowledge of good and evil but really only knew good until after he ate the forbidden fruit?
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fhansen
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These are all good points. For one reason or another Adam didn’t yet recognize the supreme goodness of God in Eden; we’re all naturally drawn to that which we authentically perceive to be the greatest good. Trust and obedience come as we find that goodness in God. Obedience cannot produce love, but love will result in obedience. That’s the basis of the New Covenant. I love to quote St Basil on this:Some tiny clarifications from the Catholic position…
Catholicism teaches that the “good” of Adam’s choices is actually sharing in the Divine Life of his Maker on earth and in heaven (known as the Beatific Vision). This is the same “good” offered to each human being, including us.
Obviously, trust in God is a good thing.
However, Catholicism teaches that beyond trust, Adam (because he was a human creature) had the obligation to freely live in submission to his (our) Maker. This obligation demanded his (our) obedience to God, Transcendent, Supernatural Pure Spirit without earthly restrictions.
Obviously, when faced with the cleverness of Satan, Adam let his trust in God die in his heart.
Beyond trust or lack of trust one can say that God demands obedience. The truth is that obedience is the only way a human creature can maintain a true relationship with God. This true relationship is known as “living in the State of Sanctifying Grace.”
Obedience is an action which is why Original Sin (disobedience) broke humanity’s relationship with Divinity.
**If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children. **
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fhansen
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Wouldn’t it more correct to say that he only knew evil after eating the fruit? Good was the status quo in Eden before that, and it was presumably taken for granted by Adam; the two, good and evil, not yet experienced, or known, by contrast with each other. All evil-or sin- could be said to be opposition to God’s will-that which lies outside His perfect order and justice. Adam effectively lied outside God’s justice by his very act of disobedience. This breach with or separation from God is the first experience of evil for Adam-and the first experience of shame was an immediate accompanying result.
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Ed_Silvia
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It may have seemed like a life of all evil in comparison to before the fall but we have God’s own word to the contrary.
Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
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fhansen
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I think I had misread you. Yes, Adam only knew good until he ate of the fruit-but quite possibly lacked appreciation for the good he knew until-hopefully-at some point after coming to know evil by his act of disobedience. Both good and evil were parts of his experience-and parts of ours as well-since the Fall.
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