Did Adam and Eve know what a spiritual death means?

[grannymh]

That’s the point. The doctrine required their (name removed by moderator)ut in order to understand the meaning of Genesis.

Do you think that Adam may’ve had a change of heart by now, because of God’s work of salvation through Christ? If so, how? What might the difference be between Adam in Eden and Adam now? How does redemption/salvation work in man IOW? What’s God’s purpose in all this, from beginning to end? Adam freely committed the first sin. Was it done out of sheer evil? If Adam possessed the wisdom of God, would’ve he sinned? Do you think he wanted to die? Again, Adam possessed enough knowledge to be culpable-and held accountable. He did not possess perfect wisdom-or at least enough to mean he’d forego committing his foolish sin. That was to be gained later, the hard way. All within God’s plan.

So many questions!

I wish you and MarcoPG the best in your search for the truth.

:flowers:

 

[fhansen]

He didn’t want to die. He was seduced to what he thought would be better I guess.

So if he didn’t want to die, then could it be said that he knew, with no doubts, that he would die if he ate the fruit-and then ate it anyway?

 

[fhansen]

So many questions!

I wish you and MarcoPG the best in your search for the truth.

:flowers:

Thank you. The Catholic Church agrees with that sentiment. Knowing the truth, which sets man free, is the purpose of our faith…The knowledge of God-with all that implies- is something we can never stop growing in. And the better part would be if you could provide some of the answers yourself.

 

[MarcoPG]

So if he didn’t want to die, then could it be said that he knew, with no doubts, that he would die if he ate the fruit-and then ate it anyway?

He knew he would die, but the only death he knew was physical, not spiritual, since no one had sinned before him.

I am making this differencesbetween two types of death.

 

[MarcoPG]

So many questions!

I wish you and MarcoPG the best in your search for the truth.

:flowers:

Thank you I don’t mean to deny anything about salvation, I just like to dig deeper where my mind leads me. Always, always with faith.

 

[fhansen]

He knew he would die, but the only death he knew was physical, not spiritual, since no one had sinned before him.

I am making this differencesbetween two types of death.

Ok, I’m not quite sure I understand this, tho. Adam knew what physical and spiritual death were before the Fall?

 

[MarcoPG]

Ok, I’m not quite sure I understand this, tho. Adam knew what physical and spiritual death were before the Fall?

I make it quite clear i think: He knew he would die, but the only death he knew was physical, not spiritual

 

[fhansen]

I make it quite clear i think: He knew he would die, but the only death he knew was physical, not spiritual

OK, just trying understand it better. Do you think he wanted to die physically?

 

[grannymh]

This will probably be a surprise.

Adam received the gift of immortality from God Himself. This special gift was directly tied to the divine intimacy between Adam and God. As long as Adam remained in obedient friendship with God, his creaturely status would be stable. Eventually, Adam chose to go against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good.

There are many reasons as to why Adam scorned his Creator. Apparently, God accepted the correct reason.

(Information source. CCC 374-376; CCC 398; CCC, 1730-1732)

 

[fhansen]

This will probably be a surprise.

Adam received the gift of immortality from God Himself. This special gift was directly tied to the divine intimacy between Adam and God. As long as Adam remained in obedient friendship with God, his creaturely status would be stable.

(Information source. CCC 374-376; CCC 398; CCC, 1730-1732)

Thank you for that, granny. What I’ve been getting at, in part, is this: I don’t think Adam wanted to die at all- physically or spiritually-and I don’t think he thought that he would die-he believed what he preferred to believe, he allowed the truth to be twisted or subverted, a possibility, itself, for finite, non-Gods only, since God could never stand opposed to truth in any way. That possibility, for imperfection, is necessarily inherent in anything inferior to God, in creation in other words. It can only *manifest *itself, however, in created beings possessing free will.

Anyway, if Adam didn’t want to die, but he was fully convinced-he had full knowledge-of death with all its ramifications, then why would he eat of the fruit? Don’t you think that he must have needed to learn about death, and the ultimate evil of death’s true nature: eternal separation from life/God/love? Don’t you think he may well know the answer by now, having spent time in quasi-exile from the Source of life, responding to His revelations and graceful overtures, as we’re all asked to do?

 

[MarcoPG]

OK, just trying understand it better. Do you think he wanted to die physically?

No, but he was fooled.
And immortality included physical death (after a period of time of hundreds of years, if you look at the others patriarchs) as a mere passage from human life to the beatific vision, and not to judgement. We know that when he was thrown out of the Garden, Angels had to protect the tree of life. So he was not given Eternal life right away, like in Heaven, only offered as a normal following for his trust. Just to be clear. But as an image, he would have been taken to Heaven at the moment of his death
Surely, God was present (since he could take a walk in the Garden) but this was to meant he was near, was present.

 

[MarcoPG]

Thank you for that, granny. What I’ve been getting at, in part, is this: I don’t think Adam wanted to die at all- physically or spiritually-and I don’t think he thought that he would die-he believed what he preferred to believe, he allowed the truth to be twisted or subverted, a possibility, itself, for finite, non-Gods only, since God could never stand opposed to truth in any way. That possibility, for imperfection, is necessarily inherent in anything inferior to God, in creation in other words. It can only *manifest *itself, however, in created beings possessing free will.

Anyway, if Adam didn’t want to die, but he was fully convinced-he had full knowledge-of death with all its ramifications, then why would he eat of the fruit? Don’t you think that he must have needed to learn about death, and the ultimate evil of death’s true nature: eternal separation from life/God/love? Don’t you think he may well know the answer by now, having spent time in quasi-exile from the Source of life, responding to His revelations and graceful overtures, as we’re all asked to do?

I think he knew he would die, but then someone came and said look it isn’t true. This someone was also superior to man (not just Eve ), so he was left with a dilemma.

Before he got fooled, he believed God, and without the serpent Adam couldn’t be fooled. But then because of the serpent he saw his life in a different way.

 

[fhansen]

I think he knew he would die, but then someone came and said look it isn’t true. This someone was also superior to man (not just Eve ), so he was left with a dilemma.

Before he got fooled, he believed God, and without the serpent Adam couldn’t be fooled. But then because of the serpent he saw his life in a different way.

Yes, well, I don’t think we can just say, ‘He was fooled’, or ‘The devil made him do it’. I think there are parallels between our own sins and the original sin, in that we-and Adam-are also carried away by our own lusts as per James, chap 1. Adam was drawn by his desire to be like God. And there were other aspects of his situation we may identify with. Adam wasn’t willing to forsake Eve, the mate he’d been given, in favor of solidarity with truth, with God. He’d rather compromise and buy into the lie. He was culpable in any case for his disobedience because of the knowledge, along with other gifts, he’d been given.

 

[MarcoPG]

Yes, well, I don’t think we can just say, ‘He was fooled’, or ‘The devil made him do it’. I think there are parallels between our own sins and the original sin, in that we-and Adam-are also carried away by our own lusts as per James, chap 1. Adam was drawn by his desire to be like God. And there were other aspects of his situation we may identify with. Adam wasn’t willing to forsake Eve, the mate he’d been given, in favor of solidarity with truth, with God. He’d rather compromise and buy into the lie. He was culpable in any case for his disobedience because of the knowledge, along with other gifts, he’d been given.

Fooling someone does not imply that the fooler decided for the fooled. It is the same as with temptation, it is n’t a sin to be tempted, it is to turn our will to the temptation. He could have said no way! but Eve was seduced, and Adam somehow trusted Eve also, plus the fact that the fruit was appealing. Surely he could have said no.