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PNEUMA
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The original sin is disobedience to the Father, that’s the whole point of the lost paradis story, it has nothing to do with the physical world, that is outside God’s world.
Did Adam and Eve originally have earthly bodies, or glorified bodies?
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GaryTaylor
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“For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all”
I wouldn’t dismiss St Augustine either
Augustine City of God page-380
Chapter 13
As soon as our first parents had transgressed the commandment divive grace forsook them, and they were confronted with their own wickedness, thus they took fig leaves which was possibly the first that came to hand in their troubled state of mind, and they covered their shame, for though their members remained the same they had shame now and they had none before. They experienced a new motion of the flesh, which had become disobedient to them, in strict retribution of their own disobedience to God. For the soul reveling in its own liberty, and scorning to serve God, was self deprived of the command it had formally maintained over the body. And because it willfully had deserted its superior Lord, it no longer held its own inferior servant, neither could its hold the flesh subject as it would always had been able to do had it remained subject to God. Then the flesh began to lust against the spirit in which strife we are born, deriving from the first transgression a seed of death and bearing in our members, and in our vitiated nature, the contest, or the victory over death.
Chapter 14
For God the author of nature, not vice, created man upright, being of his own will corrupted and justly condemned, begot condemned and corrupted children. For we all were in that one man, who fell into sin by the women who was made from him before the sin. For not yet was the particular form created and distributed to us, in which we as individuals were to live, but already the seminal nature was therefrom which we were to be propagated; and this being vitiated by sin, and bound by the chains of death, and justly condemned, man could not be born of man in any other state. And thus from the bad use of free will, there originated the whole train of evil, with its concatenation of miseries, convoys the human race from its deprived origin, as from a corrupt root. on to the destruction of the second death, which has no end, and those only being accepted are freed by the grace of God.
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PNEUMA
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Judge for yourself
Genesis 3:8 “They heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden at the time of the evening breeze, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.”
John 4:24 “God is spirit”
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GaryTaylor
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The Wind-Breeze definitely Spirit. Man-Woman definitely creation, location and time frame unknown.
Genesis - “Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.”
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GEddie
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God as spirit has no connection to A&E as standard-issue, naked human bodies.
ICXC NIKA
ICXC NIKA
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GaryTaylor
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How about…
Genesis- 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.
Gospel also
Mark 10:6, “From the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.”
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GEddie
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GaryTaylor
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So can creation 1+2 be quantified, since the sequence through 2:21 leads to Adam and Eve.
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PNEUMA
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Funny you accept that “the evening breeze” in the lost paradis, is a metaphor for something else ?
But I think you understood the metaphor wrong, in the new paradise, the Spirit is metaphorically portrayed as a river that flow from the Father and the Son
Revelation 22:1 “Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life”
John 7:38 “Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.”
Not only the river, but also the tree of life in both the lost and new paradise is a metaphor, in fact everything in both paradieses is a metaphor, even the sun and the moon.
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GaryTaylor
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Believe as you wish, I disagree, an obviously 2000 years of scholars do also.
Its both.God created everything “in its whole substance” from nothing (ex nihilo) in the beginning.
(Lateran IV; Vatican Council I)
Genesis contains real history—it gives an account of things that really happened. (Pius XII, Humani generis)
Adam and Eve were real human beings—the first parents of all mankind. (Pius XII)
Polygenism (many “first parents”) contradicts Scripture and Tradition and is condemned. (Pius XII; 1994 Catechism, 360, footnote 226: Tobit 8:6—the “one ancestor” referred to in this Catechism could only be Adam.)
The “beginning” of the world included the creation of all things, the creation of Adam and Eve and the Fall (Jesus Christ [Mark 10:6]; Pope Innocent III; Blessed Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus).
The body of Eve was specially created from a portion of Adam’s body (Leo XIII). She could not have originated via evolution.
Various senses are employed in the Bible, but the literal obvious sense must be believed unless reason dictates or necessity requires (Leo XIII, Providentissimus Deus).
Adam and Eve were created upon an earthly paradise and would not have known death if they had remained obedient (Pius XII).
After their disobedience of God, Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden. But the Second Person of the Trinity would subsequently pay the ransom for fallen man (Nicene Creed).
Original Sin is a flawed condition inherited from Adam and Eve (Council of Trent).
The Universe suffers in travail ever since the sin of disobedience by Adam and Eve. (Romans 8, Vatican Council I).
We must believe any interpretation of Scripture that the Fathers taught unanimously on a matter of faith or morals (Council of Trent and Vatican Council I).
All the Fathers who wrote on the subject believed that the Creation days were no longer than 24-hour-days. (Consensus of the Fathers of the Church)
The work of Creation was finished by the close of Day Six, and nothing completely new has since been created—except for each human rational soul at conception (Vatican Council I)
St. Peter and Christ Himself in the New Testament confirmed the global Flood of Noah. It covered all the then high mountains and destroyed all land dwelling creatures except eight human beings andall kinds of non-human creatures aboard the Ark (Unam Sanctam, 1302)
The historical existence of Noah’s Ark is regarded as most important in typology, as central to Redemption. (1566 Catechism of the Council of Trent)
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PNEUMA
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I don’t get it, what do you need a physical paradis for ? Our faith is about the the inner spiritual world !Believe as you wish, I disagree, an obviously 2000 years of scholars do also.
BTW: in this question I share the view of Church Father Origen (b. 184 d. 253)
“Who would be so childish as to think that God was like a human gardener and planted a paradise in Eden facing the east, and in it made a real visible tree, so that one could acquire life by eating its fruit with real teeth or, again, could participate in good and evil by eating what he took from the other tree? And if the text says that God walked in the garden in the evening, or Adam hid himself under the tree, I cannot think that anyone would dispute that these things are said in the figurative sense, in an effort to reveal certain mysteries by means of an apparent historical tale and not by something that actually took place” (First Principles - 4: 16 )
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GaryTaylor
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I don’t but Adam and Eve, a reality, lived on earth, elementary to me.
Which has nothing to do with the conversation
Unfortunately your in the company of an excommunicated heretic from the Church and several times its been affirmed. No attempt to separate his works have been made.
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glendab
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Hello Pneuma.
Just some food for thought. Let me know what you think.
Glenda
Genesis isn’t just a story. They are the facts. They aren’t a metaphor to teach a lesson. Are you aware that there are certain points made in the Book of Genesis that you must believe in order to be in compliance with what you are supposed to believe as a Catholic? Are you also aware that on Sunday when you say “Amen” to the Creed you recite that you basically are “swearing to God” in front of whoever else is there and God Himself that you DO indeed believe ALL that the Holy Catholic Church believes and teaches and if you don’t believe all that the Holy Catholic Church believes and teaches you shouldn’t, number one repeat that Creed and say “amen” to it and number two receive Communion because you aren’t in Communion with the Church?
Just some food for thought. Let me know what you think.
Glenda
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PNEUMA
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an excommunicated heretic ? I am sure that would have been mentioned by the Catholic Encyclopedia or Wikipedia
Origen is regarded by the Roman Catholic Church as a Church Father !
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PNEUMA
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I think you are wrong, the story is a metaphor, telling us what happened to the disobedient son of God.
I am, in Communion with Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is in Communion with me, therefore I am, the obedient Son in paradise, right now.
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GaryTaylor
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Maybe it was overlooked, its common knowledge and he’s not considered an early church father, he’s considered an ecclesiastical writer who doesn’t meet the criteria.
You can read on it below, and see where you follow the same thinking.
google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ccel.org%2Fccel%2Fschaff%2Fnpnf214.xii.ix.html&ei=gciqU_m8NY2Nqgbl6YFQ&usg=AFQjCNFduiXa6oY8MRnXho4nXYNYXhxKKw
google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDAQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fordham.edu%2Fhalsall%2Fbasis%2Fconst2.asp&ei=gciqU_m8NY2Nqgbl6YFQ&usg=AFQjCNEvIdyDb0psCizLoZcg_JzAGdsc0Q
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csaliba
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Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.I do not consider these earthly bodies as being completely evil, but they do often act as torture chambers which would be inconstant with Paradise. I therefore contend that their bodies in Paradise must have been glorified bodies, incapable of pain and suffering.
I do not really expect a definitive answer because this seems to be a gray area that no mortal man can answer for certain, but it is a thoughtful question, I think, and cast doubts that these earthly bodies are purely good.
LOVE!
In the image and likeness of God,
From the above it is clear enough, that Adam was an earthly creature, spiritually dead, without intellect,possessed only instincts, the soul was more related to the heart, the life of the flesh. He was not aware of his existence;like animals.
Thus once God gave Adam, His spirit, he was completely transformed into a new heavenly/earthly being, The most holy intermingled creator/creature ever created even up to this day, with the exception obvious of Our Most Holy Ever Virgin Mary. Adam was combined sort of semi divine semi human on the road to complete fusion and oneness with God.
God , while Adam was in a deep sleep dreaming in what he was after, removed the earthly element from within him and gave him Eve,his self love, ex Lucifer, his original spirit.Confirmed by his own words :
Now, this is flesh of my flesh and bone of my bones!
The word bone stands for spirit, and the fact that Eve was built from a mere rib,it indicates her spiritual inferiority.
Thus both Adam and Eve were abundantly established in relation to their respective Holy state; Adam’s soul more to heavenly wisdom, THE MIND,and naked from earthly physical senses, the fact that he was subject to God,related to the Holy Ghost, and Eve’s soul more to earthly physical senses,THE HEART, and naked from heavenly wisdom, the fact that she was subject to Adam,related to " THE WORD" Jesus, the Son of Man.
Thus Adam and Eve were not counterparts physically but spiritually, and through love they would become TWO IN ONE FLESH.
One kind of physical/spiritual body in the oneness, image and likeness of God.ANDROGYNOUS!
They were both of them MALE and FEMALE! Both the Father and the Son, both the Holy Spirit and “THE WORD”, both spirit and flesh,
Genesis1:27…male and female he created them.
The fact that they were both naked, not yet in our current bodies.They were like angels as Jesus confirmed.
Thus they owned the most holy non mortal body, and nothing related to death, pain, and so on, all elements related to mortal flesh and blood, our current bodies.
Also,their reproduction process had nothing to do with Satanic CARNAL counterparts sexual pleasure, but with God’s counterparts SPIRITUAL PLEASURE. God through the Holy Ghost would reproduce through both of them children of God,since God is androgynous.The same way Holy Mary made and gave birth to Jesus, and Jesus created and gave birth to Mary through her mother’s womb.
The fact that Jesus both through Mary’s birth, and His birth from Holy Mary became the life giving spirit to the reproduction process which was rejected by Adam and Eve.And we as Christians should LIVE IN CHRIST JESUS, die in the flesh completely and have intercourse totally fused in God.
Galatians 3:26 For you are all the children of God by faith, in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been BAPTIZED IN CHRIST, have put on CHRIST.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither
MALE NOR FEMALE. For you are all
ONE IN CHRIST JESUS.
IN THE SAME WAY JESUS AND MARY ETERNALLY ARE!
I believe that, Jesus , Mary, John the evangelist, and John the Baptist were androgynous!
Matthew 19:12 For there are eunuchs,…and there are eunuchs,
WHO HAVE MADE THEMSELVES EUNUCHS FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
HE THAT CAN TAKE, LET HIM TAKE IT.
I TOOK IT!!!
ALSO IN
1 Corinthians 1:27 But the FOOLISH THINGS of the world hath God chosen, that he may confound the wise; and the WEAK THINGS of the world hath God chosen, that he may confound the strong. 28And the BASE THINGS of the world, and the THINGS that are CONTEMTIBLE, hath God chosen, and THINGS that ARE NOT, that he might bring to NOUGHT things that are:
29 THAT NO FLESH SHOULD GLORY in his sight.
NONE OF THE PROCESS OF OUR OF SEXUAL MORTAL FLESH!
John 14:30 I will not now speak many things with you. For the prince of this world cometh, and
IN ME HE HAS NOT ANYTHING.
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edwest2
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From Catholic Answers regarding Adam and Eve.
"They possessed the preternatural gifts of:
They certainly had physical bodies. The Garden of Eden was a physical place with boundaries as set forth in the Bible.
Ed
"They possessed the preternatural gifts of:
Code:
impassibility (freedom from pain)
immortality (freedom from death)
integrity (freedom from concupiscence, or disordered
desires)
infused knowledge (freedom from ignorance in matters
essential for happiness)"Ed
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Richca
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God created Adam and Eve in a state of not only natural happiness but also supernatural happiness with the gift of sanctifying grace which established them in God’s friendship and placed them in the garden of Paradise which some of the fathers of the Church saw as a garden of pleasure. The very idea of a garden of paradise excludes I think the ideas of pain or suffering which can be a source of unhappiness. In their original state of innocence, everything in creation and in the garden of Eden was a source of pleasure to them, not inordinate pleasure but pleasure ordered rightly.Thank you very much!!!
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12107231&postcount=16
Perhaps you can argue with the above post that I linked. I believe that Adam and Eve experienced no pain, at least that’s what I always thought, but I honestly cannot imagine how it could have been if they had earthly bodies. You provide plenty of reading material, but nowhere have I read anything that truly solves the apparent riddle.
LOVE!
One of the preternatural gifts given to Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden is commonly termed impassibility which is usually given the meaning of freedom from suffering or pain. The CCC#376 says that as long as Adam and Eve remained in the divine intimacy, they would not have to suffer or die. The gift of impassibility for our first parents in their original state of innocence I think needs to be understood correctly however. It doesn’t mean that Adam and Eve had glorified bodies or that their bodies did not feel sensations. The human body and our senses are naturally sensible or passable, i.e., capable of undergoing passion, being acted upon from without. For example, if Adam had placed his hand over a fire, he would not have left it there to get burnt. We naturally remove our hand from a fire so it won’t get burnt; this is why gave created us with that sense of touch, we experience pain from a hot flame and so it triggers us to remove our hand. I do not believe Adam and Eve were impassible according to this kind of sensation. A glorified body such as Christ’s might not be affected by fire in this way but Adam and Eve did not have a glorified body on earth.
Or again, if Adam cut off his hand, I don’t believe he would not have experienced any pain. However, it would be against his reason and the natural knowledge God created Adam with to do such a thing. Essentially, Adam and Eve were created happy by God and their bodies were subject to their souls such that they did not experience passions, sufferings, or bodily corruption which were a cause of sorrow for them such as we experience now and which would take them out of their disposition of happiness. Work was a source of pleasure and not toilsome like it is now and contrary to some posters I don’t believe Eve would have experienced pain in childbirth prior to the Fall for the Scripture says “in pain [or sorrow] you shall bring forth children.”
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The_Serpent
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The Eastern Fathers of the Church, held the view that Adam & Eve were clothed in robes of light/glory. They lost this glory after the Fall. A good source is the writings of St. Ephrem the Syrian. See the link for a book by him, and about this.
svspress.com/hymns-on-paradise-st-ephrem-the-syrian/
svspress.com/hymns-on-paradise-st-ephrem-the-syrian/
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