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itsjustdave1988
Guest
Mike182d,
I suspect modernism is the cause, not Vatican II. Do you know when modernism began?
Also, see here: Pauline Mass or Traditional Latin Mass?
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I suspect modernism is the cause, not Vatican II. Do you know when modernism began?
Also, see here: Pauline Mass or Traditional Latin Mass?
K
katherine2
Guest
Don’t think the Church’s teaching on contraception was all that universal prior to the Council. Its been suggested that the use of the Withdrawal method was as widespread among early 20th century Catholics as the birth control pill is today. The form has changed, but not the practice.
M
mercygate
Guest
A manual to help priests in hearing confessions published in 1960 observed that the most commonly confessed sin among married women was artificial contraception. Pre-Pill.
H
Holly3278
Guest
Yes, and a great deal in my opinion. Thank God for the Mass being said in english!
M
mike182d
Guest
Whose pushing for the Traditional Latin Mass? The Council of Vatican II and the documents produced were great, but it gave the laity a big head and they went on a power trip changing things that never were meant to be changed. Show me where the Church banned the use of Latin, ordered all priests to face the people, replaced Gregorian chant with tracks off a Peter, Paul, and Mary record, instructed everyone to hold hands during the Our Father, and forbid the laity from kneeling to receive the Eucharist on the tongue?
See: catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0540.html. Its a very good essay by Jesuit Fr. Fessio.
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netmilsmom
Guest
Pariah Pirana:
I don’t know that anyone would have a need to ask, Pre-V2.
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netmilsmom
Guest
Great article!
Don’t you wish we had pings here?
K
katherine2
Guest
it didn’t. Latin, facing the aspe, Gregorian Chant are neither banned nor mandated. They are options. Maybe today they are uncommonly used options, but they are not banned.
M
mike182d
Guest
…and yet, why is it so difficult for priests who wish to exercise this option in their own parish? Mother Angelica has much experience in this area.
While they are technically still options, they have become more like a Mass *faux paux, *and not many Bishops today condone such “options.”
M
mike182d
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
I’ve had so much fun over here I’ve almost forgotten about FreeRepublic
Ah, pings…
I’ve had so much fun over here I’ve almost forgotten about FreeRepublic
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HagiaSophia
Guest
I believe that a great deal of good has come out of it; Catholics today are more involved with the liturgy in their parishes/dioceses than I’ve ever seen. Witness some of the posts in this very forum.
We also became aware that those of other faiths share a common Christian base with us and as a united front in many ways, particularly moral and political issues which govern our societies we can do more aiding one another than we can backbiting each other.
We became more aware of the “other lung” and the early church as it was when it was “one”.
The adults of today have gone far beyond their 8th grade or high school catechesis. As adults they have many more opportunities for a more mature understanding of the faith, they have looked into and read up on concepts, rules and traditions of the Church and they now demand some things from their bishops.
The days of pray, pay and obey are gone in most places.
We also became aware that those of other faiths share a common Christian base with us and as a united front in many ways, particularly moral and political issues which govern our societies we can do more aiding one another than we can backbiting each other.
We became more aware of the “other lung” and the early church as it was when it was “one”.
The adults of today have gone far beyond their 8th grade or high school catechesis. As adults they have many more opportunities for a more mature understanding of the faith, they have looked into and read up on concepts, rules and traditions of the Church and they now demand some things from their bishops.
The days of pray, pay and obey are gone in most places.
N
netmilsmom
Guest
Me too! I’m so glad you’re here!Ah, pings…
I’ve had so much fun over here I’ve almost forgotten about FreeRepublic
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romano
Guest
As a kid I never had the slightest trouble with the Latin Mass. Missals were bilingual with Latin and English on facing pages. The Latin was simple and easy to assimilate. It was also very BEAUTIFUL. It’s long association with Christendom rendered it a Sacred Language.
English, on the other hand, is a corrupted and degenerate language, the language of advertising, propaganda, movies, TV, and all the other rubbish that comprises the modern world.
You don’t know what you’ve lost.
C
coralewisjr
Guest
Well said, romano.
my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne
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mercygate
Guest
Puh-leese.
I love Latin and the Latin Mass (both the TLM and the Missa Normativa). Language per se is hardly the issue. English is also the language of Thomas More, William Shakespeare, John Donne, George Herbert and Alexander Pope.
Latin is also the language of much lurid poetry and the language of brutality and war . . .
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mike182d
Guest
fo’shizzle.
English today (or American English for that matter) is not the same language as Thomas More, William Shakespeare, et al. It has digressed considerably.
Furthermore, you forget that Latin is the language of medical professionals.
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netmilsmom
Guest
And all sciences!fo’shizzle.
English today (or American English for that matter) is not the same language as Thomas More, William Shakespeare, et al. It has digressed considerably.
Furthermore, you forget that Latin is the language of medical professionals.
Root words of Latin and Greek are becoming a huge industry in the homeschooling community. I am teaching my 7&5 year olds root words for just that reason.
Kids who learn Latin are better at English.
R
rwoehmke
Guest
What is interesting to me is that with so many Catholics contracepting, that that growth is likely due to a vast increase in the number of conversions after Vatican II brought us out of isolation as a Ghetto community. Obviously a lot of people looked at a re-vitalized Church and liked what they saw. I am a cradle Catholic 69 years old and I would have to say that the converts that I have met are much more fervent in their Catholism than many of the “Old Guard.” They in my opinion have become the back bone of our Church. They believe in the Real Presence and everything else. Slam Vatican II all you want, but I think that many Catholics were already headed for the door long before it happened.Vatican II provided an excuse. I don’t think its the converts who are always appealing to the “Spirit of Vatican II”. Its in the main cradle Catholics who were already disenchanted with the Church and likely their offspring as well. Don’t get me wrong I think there are still many faithful cradle Catholics though not a few have opted out while staying in.
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EddieArent
Guest
Agreed but “real presence” is vague. Let the laity and clergy start using “transubstantiation.”
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Dr.Bombay
Guest
Of course good came out of Vatican II. How could a Council, guided by the Holy Spirit, not be good? It’s the implementation and interpretation of said Council that is lacking in our Church today.
From Sacrosanctum Concilium:
**The treasures of the Bible are to be opened up more lavishly, so that richer fare may be provided for **the faithful at the table of God’s Word. In this way a more representative portion of the Holy Scriptures will be read to the people in the course of a prescribed number of years.
Done.
**In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and “the common prayer,” but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to tho norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.
**Done.
** Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.
**Stupendous and colossal failure on the part of those charged with implementing the mandates of the Council.
**The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman Liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.
**Another failure.
Our Holy Father, Benedict XVI has promised a proper implementation of the Council itself, not the phony “spirit” of the Council which is actually a “spirit” quite opposed to it. I’m looking forward to that, as all faithful Catholics should. :yup:
From Sacrosanctum Concilium:
**The treasures of the Bible are to be opened up more lavishly, so that richer fare may be provided for **the faithful at the table of God’s Word. In this way a more representative portion of the Holy Scriptures will be read to the people in the course of a prescribed number of years.
Done.
**In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and “the common prayer,” but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to tho norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.
**Done.
** Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.
**Stupendous and colossal failure on the part of those charged with implementing the mandates of the Council.
**The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman Liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.
**Another failure.
Our Holy Father, Benedict XVI has promised a proper implementation of the Council itself, not the phony “spirit” of the Council which is actually a “spirit” quite opposed to it. I’m looking forward to that, as all faithful Catholics should. :yup:
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