Did anyone in Christendom, from 33 AD to 1000 AD, believe the holy bible to be the Christians only authority?

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Wow, I cannot believe that you have always been Wiccan. This is a thoughtful response. I think I understand the “victors”. You lost me at “ambiguous evidence”. Evidence I understand, can you run the ambiguous by me so I can understand your perspective?:cool:
The victors would be the bishops that Constantine called to met at Nicaea, I suppose." My guess is that while there were other “Christian” sects, that "Catholics"were generally recongized by the Romans as THE Church.
 
The victors would be the bishops that Constantine called to met at Nicaea, I suppose." My guess is that while there were other “Christian” sects, that "Catholics"were generally recongized by the Romans as THE Church.
Thank you Robby, that is your perspective. I wait for amber to pose the perspective I asked for.👍
 
What I find interesting is a lot of non-Catholics believe there wasn’t a papacy and yet all of their ex-Catholic ancestors furiously attacked the very thing that apparently never existed in the Church. Although who can blame them because the belief that God would actually appoint one man to represent His chosen faithful is truly unbiblical and a foreign concept for sure. I mean you won’t find God doing that anywhere in the Old Testament through the New Testament. Plus I’m sure attacking this vicar type person wouldn’t be necessary when starting a revolt because casting doubts on the Authority of the Church would probably never help a heretic in their quest to get supporters. I’m sure we would never find an instance of the Jews doing this in the Old Testament to one of the many non-papal figures like Moses.
 
Against Heresies (Book III, Chapter 2)
  1. When, however, they are confuted from the Scriptures, they turn round and accuse these same Scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of authority, and [assert] that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition. For [they allege] that the truth was not delivered by means of written documents, but vivâ voce: wherefore also Paul declared, “But we speak wisdom among those that are perfect, but not the wisdom of this world.” 1 Corinthians 2:6 And this wisdom each one of them alleges to be the fiction of his own inventing, forsooth; so that, according to their idea, the truth properly resides at one time in Valentinus, at another in Marcion, at another in Cerinthus, then afterwards in Basilides, or has even been indifferently in any other opponent, who could speak nothing pertaining to salvation. For every one of these men, being altogether of a perverse disposition, depraving the system of truth, is not ashamed to preach himself.
  1. But, again, when we refer them to that tradition which originates from the apostles, [and] which is preserved by means of the succession of presbyters in the Churches, they object to tradition, saying that they themselves are wiser not merely than the presbyters, but even than the apostles, because they have discovered the unadulterated truth. For [they maintain] that the apostles intermingled the things of the law with the words of the Saviour; and that not the apostles alone, but even the Lord Himself, spoke as at one time from the Demiurge, at another from the intermediate place, and yet again from the Pleroma, but that they themselves, indubitably, unsulliedly, and purely, have knowledge of the hidden mystery: this is, indeed, to blaspheme their Creator after a most impudent manner! It comes to this, therefore, that these men do now consent neither to Scripture nor to tradition.
  1. Such are the adversaries with whom we have to deal, my very dear friend, endeavouring like slippery serpents to escape at all points. Where-fore they must be opposed at all points, if per-chance, by cutting off their retreat, we may succeed in turning them back to the truth. For, though it is not an easy thing for a soul under the influence of error to repent, yet, on the other hand, it is not altogether impossible to escape from error when the truth is brought alongside it.
 
PREFACE Showing the utility of the Treatise on Christian Doctrine.
BOOK I The author divides his work into two parts, one relating to the discovery, the other to the expression, of the true sense of Scripture. He shows that to discover the meaning we must attend both to things and to signs, as it is necessary to know what things we ought to teach to the Christian people, and also the signs of these things, that is, where the knowledge of these things is to be sought. In this first book he treats of things, which he divides into three classes,–things to be enjoyed, things to be used, and things which use and enjoy. The only object which ought to be enjoyed is the Triune God, who is our highest good and our true happiness. We are prevented by our sins from enjoying God; and that our sins might be taken away, “the Word was made Flesh,” our Lord suffered, and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, taking to Himself as his bride the Church, in which we receive remission of our sins. And if our sins are remitted and our souls renewed by grace, we may await with hope the resurrection of the body to eternal glory; if not, we shall be raised to everlasting punishment. these matters relating to faith having been expounded, the author goes on to show that all objects, except God, are for use; for, though some of them may be loved, yet our love is not to rest in them, but to have reference to God. And we ourselves are not objects of enjoyment to God; he uses us, but for our own advantage. He then goes on to show that love–the love of God for His own sake and the love of our neighbor for God’s sake–is the fulfillment and the end of all Scripture. After adding a few words about hope, he shows, in conclusion, that faith, hope, and love are graces essentially necessary for him who would understand and explain aright the Holy Scriptures.
BOOK II Having completed his exposition of things, the author now proceeds to discuss the subject of signs. He first defines what a sign is, and shows that there are two classes of signs, the natural and the conventional. Of conventional signs (which are the only class here noticed), words are the most numerous and important, and are those with which the interpreter of Scripture is chiefly concerned. The difficulties and obscurities of Scripture spring chiefly from two sources, unknown and ambiguous signs. The present book deals only with unknown signs, the ambiguities of language being reserved for treatment in the next book. The difficulty arising from ignorance of signs is to be removed by learning the Greek and Hebrew languages, in which Scripture is written, by comparing the various translations, and by attending to the context. In the interpretation of figurative expressions, knowledge of things is as necessary as knowledge of words; and the various sciences and arts of the heathen, so far as they are true and useful, may be turned to account in removing our ignorance of signs, whether these be direct or figurative. Whilst exposing the folly and futility of many heathen superstitions and practices, the author points out how all that is sound and useful in their science and philosophy may be turned to a Christian use. And in conclusion, he shows the spirit in which it behooves us to address ourselves to the study and interpretation of the sacred books.
BOOK III The author, having discussed in the preceding book the method of dealing with unknown signs, goes on in this third book to treat of ambiguous signs. Such signs may be either direct or figurative. In the case of direct signs ambiguity may arise from the punctuation, the pronunciation, or the doubtful signification of the words, and is to be resolved by attention to the context, a comparison of translations, or a reference to the original tongue. In the case of figurative signs we need to guard against two mistakes:–i. The interpreting literal expressions figuratively; 2. The interpreting figurative expressions literally. The author lays down rules by which we may decide whether an expression is literal or figurative; the general rule being, that whatever can be shown to be in its literal sense inconsistent either with purity of life or correctness of doctrine must be taken figuratively. He then goes on to lay down rules for the interpretation of expressions which have been proved to be figurative; the general principle being, that no interpretation can be true which does not promote the love of God and the love of man. The author then proceeds to expound and illustrate the seven rules of Tichonius the Donatist, which he commends to the attention of the student of Holy Scripture.
BOOK IV Passing to the second part of his work, that which treats of expression, the …orator, he recommends the authors of the Holy Scriptures as the best models of eloquence, far excelling all others in the combination of eloquence with wisdom. He points out that perspicuity is the most essential quality of style, and ought to be cultivated with special care by the teacher, as it is the main requisite for instruction, although other qualities are required for delighting and persuading the hearer. All these gifts are to be sought in earnest prayer from God, though we are not to forget to be zealous and diligent in study. He shows that there are three species of style, the subdued, the elegant, and the majestic; the first serving for instruction, the second for praise, and the third for exhortation: and of each of these he gives examples, selected both from Scripture and from early teachers of the Church, Cyprian and Ambrose. …
Finally, he exhorts the Christian teacher himself, pointing out the dignity and responsibility of the office he hold to lead a life in harmony with his own teaching, and to show a good example to all.
newadvent.org/fathers/1202.htm
 
What I find interesting is a lot of non-Catholics believe there wasn’t a papacy and yet all of their ex-Catholic ancestors furiously attacked the very thing that apparently never existed in the Church. Although who can blame them because the belief that God would actually appoint one man to represent His chosen faithful is truly unbiblical and a foreign concept for sure. I mean you won’t find God doing that anywhere in the Old Testament through the New Testament. Plus I’m sure attacking this vicar type person wouldn’t be necessary when starting a revolt because casting doubts on the Authority of the Church would probably never help a heretic in their quest to get supporters. I’m sure we would never find an instance of the Jews doing this in the Old Testament to one of the many non-papal figures like Moses.
A little cheeky - LOL - but point well taken…

Like God would actually appoint one man, like Moses, to represent His chosen…😛
 
We don’t currently have the information to accurately answer that question. What we do have, is the evidence of the victors, and the history that they wrote.

Amber
Howsa bout the early church leaders, spanning the centuries from the time of Ignatius (110 AD) - to the time of Augustine (430 AD) - and of course beyond his time? Surely those men belonging to the Catholic Church must have some (name removed by moderator)ut as to whether or not anyone in Christendom, from 33 AD to 1000 AD, believed the holy bible to be the Christians only authority, as almost all protestants believe today?
 
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Big Dummy,

This is a long list. I am not sure what to do with it. I can open each one, look at the date that it was written and then wonder what it is you are trying to say. I feel like a bigger dummy. Start with one or two and point out what it is you see.

Thank you:thumbsup:
 
Like God would actually appoint one man, like Moses, to represent His chosen…😛
I know right? Not like God personally preserved Moses from teaching error either…that whole burning bush thing was just for kicks and Moses was left to wing it all by himself. I think its safe to say God was pretty much a spectator when it came to the leaders of His OT Church. 😛

Alright joe I will let you get back to the question at hand. Thanks for letting me ramble on your thread. 👍

God Bless
 
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newadvent.org/fathers/0103321.htm
newadvent.org/fathers/3001027.htm
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newadvent.org/fathers/0103306.htm
newadvent.org/fathers/1801008.htm
newadvent.org/fathers/2807.htm
newadvent.org/fathers/04124.htm
newadvent.org/fathers/1407.htm
newadvent.org/fathers/34021.htm
newadvent.org/fathers/1801127.htm
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newadvent.org/summa/3033.htm
newadvent.org/fathers/1510.htm
newadvent.org/fathers/01286.htm
newadvent.org/fathers/1102245.htm
newadvent.org/fathers/230709.htm
newadvent.org/fathers/1201.htm
newadvent.org/fathers/0103427.htm
newadvent.org/fathers/050662.htm
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newadvent.org/fathers/350810.htm
newadvent.org/fathers/3202260.htm
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newadvent.org/fathers/3001077.htm
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newadvent.org/fathers/3803.htm
newadvent.org/fathers/1801072.htm
newadvent.org/summa/1068.htm
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Hey Big, thanks for being specific…LOL…😃
 
Hey this is a no sarcasm zone. LOL…Seriously though I am just looking to have an amiable exchange, as well as answers from protestants, to the question at hand.

Peace brother…
Well. I appologize for the intrusion. However, I do know people that have said somewhat the same in my family. However, the more educated from the bunch no better. I was taught information that contradicted Catholic teaching…having been brought up Protestant, thought baptized Catholic. Would explain why I was so confused growing up and broke to join my wife’s faith later on in life. My break was a lack of faith in what we were being taught because of poor examples, stumbling blocks. The bible is a wonderful gift and should not be made light of by anyone. It holds evidence of many truths taught by the Church. I find many to misinterpret it quite so often. There are things that bother me about teachings the hierarchy hold onto that appear to contradict scripture. But that’s another topic for another day.
 
Based on what?
By looking at the structure of “Mark” for one thing. The tradition is that mark was Peter’s translator, and that the Gospel is a transcription of what Peter told his congregations. The Gospels and other texts were written so that the words of the Apostles might be heard–literally, for they,like all writings, were intended to be read aloud–where the Apostles could not be. Given how full of the Hebrew texts they are, they are basically commentaries intotended to prove that Jesus was the Christ, and that his death and resurrection had been intended to reconcile Israel, and indeed all mankind, with the Father.
 
In Short, I feel one can not make a blanket statement without doing the research involved, thus the links.

Out of curiousity, what are the citatition formulas for scripture and for quoting Tradition in the Church FAthers, and how often do those formulas occurs?
 
In Short, I feel one can not make a blanket statement without doing the research involved, thus the links.

Out of curiousity, what are the citatition formulas for scripture and for quoting Tradition in the Church FAthers, and how often do those formulas occurs?
Big Dummy Doubter,

I ask you again to go over the links and your thoughts. They mean nothing without knowing what it is you believe them to represent. Consider the following.

catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Tradition.asp
catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp
catholic.com/radio/event.php?calendar=1&category=&event=1049&date=1998-07-06
catholic.com/radio/event.php?calendar=1&category=&date=1998-07-13&event=1050
catholic.com/radio/event.php?calendar=1&category=&event=1051&date=1998-07-20

Or This
catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Tradition.asp
Is Scripture the sole rule of faith for Christians? Not according to the Bible. While we must guard against merely human tradition, the Bible contains numerous references to the necessity of clinging to apostolic tradition.
catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp
Protestants claim the Bible is the only rule of faith, meaning that it contains all of the material one needs for theology and that this material is sufficiently clear that one does not need apostolic tradition or the Church’s magisterium (teaching authority) to help one understand it. In the Protestant view, the whole of Christian truth is found within the Bible’s pages. Anything extraneous to the Bible is simply non-authoritative, unnecessary, or wrong—and may well hinder one in coming to God.
Catholics, on the other hand, recognize that the Bible does not endorse this view and that, in fact, it is repudiated in Scripture. The true “rule of faith”—as expressed in the Bible itself—is Scripture plus apostolic tradition, as manifested in the living teaching authority of the Catholic Church, to which were entrusted the oral teachings of Jesus and the apostles, along with the authority to interpret Scripture correctly.
This is a 3 part series where Dr. Hahn discusses the role of Scripture, Tradition and the magisterium. There is no formula.

catholic.com/radio/event.php?calendar=1&category=&event=1049&date=1998-07-06
catholic.com/radio/event.php?calendar=1&category=&date=1998-07-13&event=1050
catholic.com/radio/event.php?calendar=1&category=&event=1051&date=1998-07-20

Which of those two presentations of information did you find most helpful?
 
You lost me at “ambiguous evidence”
Best way to describe it is by example.

“I love a **** named Mary Jane!”.
Is the blanked out word “girl”, or something else?

If the rest of the text is in praise of hallucigens, and you know that “Mary Jane” is used to refer to marijuanna, then the blacked out term is as likely to be “weed” is it is to be “girl”.
If you don’t know that “Mary Jane” is also used for marijuanna, would you consider any word other than "girl"should be substituted for “****”?

The extent manuscripts are damaged. Between missing pages, and crumbling pages, what we have is a reconstruction of what the original probably contained.

370; said:
]
Are proof-texts/citations

My source was a book written circa 2004, on the history of the Christian church in Europe, prior to 1800.(Sorry, don’t remember the title.)

The Trail of Blood was written in the late nineteenth century, and is unrelated to the book I’m referring to.
from early church leaders or those outside the early church,
The earliest date for those groups would be 900 AD.

Amber
 
Of course… when the King James Bible fell from the sky in 33 A.D. everybody knew the bible is the inerrant word of God. Let me here an amen!
I think you will find that the Latin Vulgate was the standard Bible used up to about the 18th Century in England, when it was replaced by the so-called, “King James Authorized Version”. The idea followed on from the original “Great Bible”, an English translation of the Latin Vulgate from Henry VIII’s time, which made the Scriptures accessible to the non-Latin speaking people.

“Over the course of the 18th century, the Authorized Version supplanted the Latin Vulgate as the standard version of scripture for English speaking scholars.” Wikipedia.

Protector.
 
Best way to describe it is by example.

“I love a **** named Mary Jane!”.
Is the blanked out word “girl”, or something else?

If the rest of the text is in praise of hallucigens, and you know that “Mary Jane” is used to refer to marijuanna, then the blacked out term is as likely to be “weed” is it is to be “girl”.
If you don’t know that “Mary Jane” is also used for marijuanna, would you consider any word other than "girl"should be substituted for “****”?

The extent manuscripts are damaged. Between missing pages, and crumbling pages, what we have is a reconstruction of what the original probably contained.

My source was a book written circa 2004, on the history of the Christian church in Europe, prior to 1800.(Sorry, don’t remember the title.)

The Trail of Blood was written in the late nineteenth century, and is unrelated to the book I’m referring to.

The earliest date for those groups would be 900 AD.

Amber
I would be interesed to know what extent manuscripts you speak of.

The name of your sourcebook would be helpful.

The Trail of Blood is pure fantasy as is Martyrs Mirror and Noble Army of Heretics.

You had me at Mary Jane.👍
 
.Could Satan (a fallen angel of Jesus’ creation) - prevent Satan’s creator (Jesus) - from guiding His Mystical Body, the Church, of which He is the Head and Savior, into all truth, until the end of time, especially in view of the fact that Jesus’ Mystical Body is comprised of nothing but fallible sinners?
Fallible they are, but they have direct access to the greatest power in the Cosmos, The Holy Spirit.

What is a created being (Satan) going to be able to do against that combination?

So the answer to your question is, NO!

Protector.
 
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