Did apes descend from us?

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I thought everyone would “get” the joke about wolves, but I guess not.
Oh it was a joke, was it? Hmm - let’s see: “There is not the least doubt in my mind that if apes did not exist, and never did, evolutionists would swear we descended from wolves, and would find all kinds of reasons, based on the nature of fossil skeletons and tool development, to support it”.
I will say that in your opening statement above, you assumed your ultimate conclusion in your premise. But never mind that.
Not an assumption but a conclusion. If apes did not and had never existed then we would not either, because we are, taxonomically, an ape.
I don’t discount evolutionary theory, at least as expressed by some. But I also think it’s sometimes taken too seriously, and assumed to mean more than perhaps it does. This latest fossil skeleton they found, for example, is supposed to prove humans lived in the woods characteristically. Maybe so, maybe not. They really don’t know.
I think they do, at least with respect to Ardipithecus. I think they show with a high degree of confidence that that is the case. I’m, guessing that you have no idea what the evidence is.
Of course, walking upright also makes it easier to carry weapons. Bad guys. But it seems never to have occurred to the moderators that weapon-carrying is as easy an explanation as food-carrying.
It might be an easy explanation, but it is not such a good one, because it is not supported by the entire adaptive suite (including loss of SCC and sexual dimorphism) or by the fact that tool use does not emerge until 2.5 million years after Ardipithecus.
Carrying almost any kind of weapon requires ones hands to be free and at the ready.
Unless you’re packing a Colt 45 in a holster, right?
Of course, they didn’t ask me.
Never mind - they’ll remember to next time.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
Elaine Morgan (The Descent of Woman) was the populizer of the theory most linked to Alister Hardy that hominids went through an aquatic phase of evolution, a theory posed as a challenged to the widely accepted “savannah hypothesis” for bipedal locomotion, as well as the relative hairlessness of “the naked ape”.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elaine_Morgan_(writer
The physiological parallel’s between humans and the many other hairless fat skinned seafarer’s come land lubbers in the animal kingdom make the theory the most convincing I’ve heard so far. Here’s a vid on ted where she talks about it.

ted.com/talks/lang/eng/elaine_morgan_says_we_evolved_from_aquatic_apes.html
 
Elaine Morgan (The Descent of Woman) was the populizer of the theory most linked to Alister Hardy that hominids went through an aquatic phase of evolution, a theory posed as a challenged to the widely accepted “savannah hypothesis” for bipedal locomotion, as well as the relative hairlessness of “the naked ape”.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elaine_Morgan_(writer
The aquatic ape theory did not say “man descended from the same family as seals, walruses, whales and elephants” as you claimed. Were you trying to be deliberately dishonest?

Your link was broken, here is fixed:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elaine_Morgan_%28writer%29#Aquatic_ape_hypothesis

There is a TED talk about it here:
ted.com/talks/elaine_morgan_says_we_evolved_from_aquatic_apes.html
 
Oh it was a joke, was it? Hmm - let’s see: “There is not the least doubt in my mind that if apes did not exist, and never did, evolutionists would swear we descended from wolves, and would find all kinds of reasons, based on the nature of fossil skeletons and tool development, to support it”.

evolutionpages.com
Of course it was a joke. It was not my purpose to assert that we are descended from wolves, but to assert that if apes did not exist and never did, those who are so intensely dedicated to the notion of evolution would find some other creature from which to claim we are descended. I was commenting on the religious fervor with which those who want to believe it, approach the whole subject. Oftentimes people of that quasi-religion find it useful to their philosophy to make what seem to me extreme assertions about the sources and purposes of various aspects of human nature, based on pretty flimsy evidence. That’s exactly what people are doing when, for example, they “discover” the reasons why humans walk upright, based on a partial, fossilized skeleton, and make all kinds of assertions about modern human conduct based on those assumed reasons.

Yes, I realize it is extremely important for some to do that. It’s the religion of some.
 
Of course it was a joke. It was not my purpose to assert that we are descended from wolves, but to assert that if apes did not exist and never did, those who are so intensely dedicated to the notion of evolution would find some other creature from which to claim we are descended. I was commenting on the religious fervor with which those who want to believe it, approach the whole subject. Oftentimes people of that quasi-religion find it useful to their philosophy to make what seem to me extreme assertions about the sources and purposes of various aspects of human nature, based on pretty flimsy evidence. That’s exactly what people are doing when, for example, they “discover” the reasons why humans walk upright, based on a partial, fossilized skeleton, and make all kinds of assertions about modern human conduct based on those assumed reasons.

Yes, I realize it is extremely important for some to do that. It’s the religion of some.
If 95% all doctors agreed on an germ theory, would you call that religious fervor as well?

I think you’re looking at some theories that are not well proven, and using those to assume other related theories must be based on evidence that is just as flimsy. Here, watch this:

youtube.com/watch?v=WqznURlEWI0
 
Here’s another good one, from a NY Times article last week.

Scientists conclude, Higgs boson is attacking them from the future sabbotaging plans

Then it will be time to test one of the most bizarre and revolutionary theories in science. I’m not talking about extra dimensions of space-time, dark matter or even black holes that eat the Earth. No, I’m talking about the notion that the troubled collider is being sabotaged by its own future. A pair of otherwise distinguished physicists have suggested that the hypothesized Higgs boson, which physicists hope to produce with the collider, might be so abhorrent to nature that its creation would ripple backward through time and stop the collider before it could make one, like a time traveler who goes back in time to kill his grandfather.

“It must be our prediction that all Higgs producing machines shall have bad luck,” Dr. Nielsen said in an e-mail message. In an unpublished essay, Dr. Nielson said of the theory, “Well, one could even almost say that we have a model for God.” It is their guess, he went on, “that He rather hates Higgs particles, and attempts to avoid them.”

This malign influence from the future, they argue, could explain why the United States Superconducting Supercollider, also designed to find the Higgs, was canceled in 1993 after billions of dollars had already been spent, an event so unlikely that Dr. Nielsen calls it an “anti-miracle.”

Actually, the scientists have discovered that it’s not the Higgs particle attacking them, but it’s God. He hates Higgs particles and is destroying their plans.

That is perhaps some of the best wisdom I’ve ever seen from scientific research.
 
Maybe a better title for that story?

Scientists conclude, God is punishing us for Supercollider experiments which are "abhorrent to nature"
 
If 95% all doctors agreed on an germ theory, would you call that religious fervor as well? No, of course not. But at minimum I would expect them to actually be able to prove their theory.

I think you’re looking at some theories that are not well proven, and using those to assume other related theories must be based on evidence that is just as flimsy. Here, watch this:

youtube.com/watch?v=WqznURlEWI0
I’m not touting any of those theories on your film. They’re all passingly interesting, but nobody can prove any of them, so to me, they simply remain passingly interesting. To academics who wrestle with one another in journals, it’s a more serious matter. Some become famous and get lecture invitations, tenure and all that, and some don’t. To others, it’s important to overstate what the actual evidence demonstrates for ideological reasons. So, for example, it may be philosophically important for a certain kind of religious believer to overstate the evidence for “intelligent design”. It can be equally important for an atheist to overstate the evidence that human nature is molded by survival strategies in the process of natural selection.

I don’t think anyone would really claim that the various evolutionary conclusions reached by some are demonstrated with the same sort of scientific rigor that, say, the existence and nature of certain germs has been demonstrated. Part of the reason, of course, is that no one has figured out a way to actually reproduce evolution in a way that is persuasive to all. Part of it is that the evidence is so wonderously thin that it would be laughable to a forensic pathologist who actually has to prove things. That doesn’t mean we therefore should not believe in evolution or at least grant it some credence. It simply means that it’s not a “science” in the same sort of way that, say, microbiology is a “science”.

Sometimes science reaches out into the thin air out of necessity. Its demonstrable theories have borders beyond which it is difficult to reach. I remember, for example, my brother telling me about his masters’ thesis in engineering. Apparently, so many theses have been written that it’s very difficult to write an “original” thesis nowadays without positing premises that cannot be demonstrated physically. So, they end up making assumptions that are simply mathematical models that cannot possibly be demonstrated physically, packing a bunch of them together and demonstating the “point” mathematically. Astrophysicists, it appears, are out in the “thin air” in some ways as well. They posit “branes” and “strings” and all kinds of things that arguably work out mathematically, but which are not demonstrable and are almost certainly never going to be demonstrable.

I don’t have a problem with people who promote theories regarding evolution any more than I have one with those who promote engineering theories about how some theoretically possible metallic atoms might interact with some other theoretically possible thing under theoretically possible pressures and temperatures, none of which can be demonstrated to actually exist.

But, just as with the more radical versions of creationism, some of those to whom evolutionary theory is personally important, make leaps as well, sometimes, though not necessarily always, for the very same reason as the radical creationists do. I do read, for example, that the much-heralded “mashed lemur”, touted as the remote ancestor of men and apes, is now viewed skeptically by evolutionists. In my mind, the conclusions drawn about the “food carrying ape man” is no more established as a scientific certitude than were those surrounding the “mashed lemur”.

Now and again, there will be an argument among researchers regarding whether Neanderthals died out or whether they simply interbred with Homo Sapiens. There are all sorts of sub-theories about the former. Did they die out because they were murdered by Homo Sapiens? Did they die out because the ice sheets receded? The “die out” people believe DNA evidence negates the possibility that they interbred with Homo Sapiens. Others argue that it does not. But nobody really knows, and probably never will know.

Now, when it comes to all that, again, its interesting stuff and kind of fun, really, in the same sort of way that the theories about “why Rome fell” are interesting. But when it comes to the hardened “this is science in the same sort of way that germ theory is science” assertions, I cannot help but suspect the assertions are ideologically motivated, just as I suspect the “young earth” theories, with all their anecdotal “evidence” are ideologically motivated.

Now, to me, it is of no great importance whether the “food carrying ape man” walked upright because he had become more socialized (which smacks of Lamarckian evolutionary theory just a bit) or whether it was a DNA glitch that did not bring disaster with it.

It’s a big deal to both religiously-motivated creationists and young earth promoters to argue their theories. Whether they overstate their evidence (and I think they do) is not important to my life or to my beliefs, but their insistence is at least mildly irritating. It is a big deal to atheists to find “missing links” and argue that somehow they explain human nature fully. I think some of those folks overstate their evidence as well. In both cases, the insistence that they are “scientifically right” is, in my mind, philosophically motivated, and isn’t “scientific fact” at all. It’s “evidence”. The fact that some innocent people have been jailed or executed based on “evidence” should give us pause when considering whether we should hang our hats on mere “evidence” of any kind.
 
Here’s another good one, from a NY Times article last week.

Scientists conclude, Higgs boson is attacking them from the future sabbotaging plans

Then it will be time to test one of the most bizarre and revolutionary theories in science. I’m not talking about extra dimensions of space-time, dark matter or even black holes that eat the Earth. No, I’m talking about the notion that the troubled collider is being sabotaged by its own future. A pair of otherwise distinguished physicists have suggested that the hypothesized Higgs boson, which physicists hope to produce with the collider, might be so abhorrent to nature that its creation would ripple backward through time and stop the collider before it could make one, like a time traveler who goes back in time to kill his grandfather.

I hope my 10 year old science nerd grandson doesn’t read about this. He will be desperate to find a way to costume up as a Higgs Boson for Halloween. 🙂
 
I’m not touting any of those theories on your film. They’re all passingly interesting, but nobody can prove any of them, so to me, they simply remain passingly interesting. To academics who wrestle with one another in journals, it’s a more serious matter. Some become famous and get lecture invitations, tenure and all that, and some don’t. To others, it’s important to overstate what the actual evidence demonstrates for ideological reasons. So, for example, it may be philosophically important for a certain kind of religious believer to overstate the evidence for “intelligent design”. It can be equally important for an atheist to overstate the evidence that human nature is molded by survival strategies in the process of natural selection.

I don’t think anyone would really claim that the various evolutionary conclusions reached by some are demonstrated with the same sort of scientific rigor that, say, the existence and nature of certain germs has been demonstrated. Part of the reason, of course, is that no one has figured out a way to actually reproduce evolution in a way that is persuasive to all. Part of it is that the evidence is so wonderously thin that it would be laughable to a forensic pathologist who actually has to prove things. That doesn’t mean we therefore should not believe in evolution or at least grant it some credence. It simply means that it’s not a “science” in the same sort of way that, say, microbiology is a “science”.

Sometimes science reaches out into the thin air out of necessity. Its demonstrable theories have borders beyond which it is difficult to reach. I remember, for example, my brother telling me about his masters’ thesis in engineering. Apparently, so many theses have been written that it’s very difficult to write an “original” thesis nowadays without positing premises that cannot be demonstrated physically. So, they end up making assumptions that are simply mathematical models that cannot possibly be demonstrated physically, packing a bunch of them together and demonstating the “point” mathematically. Astrophysicists, it appears, are out in the “thin air” in some ways as well. They posit “branes” and “strings” and all kinds of things that arguably work out mathematically, but which are not demonstrable and are almost certainly never going to be demonstrable.

I don’t have a problem with people who promote theories regarding evolution any more than I have one with those who promote engineering theories about how some theoretically possible metallic atoms might interact with some other theoretically possible thing under theoretically possible pressures and temperatures, none of which can be demonstrated to actually exist.

But, just as with the more radical versions of creationism, some of those to whom evolutionary theory is personally important, make leaps as well, sometimes, though not necessarily always, for the very same reason as the radical creationists do. I do read, for example, that the much-heralded “mashed lemur”, touted as the remote ancestor of men and apes, is now viewed skeptically by evolutionists. In my mind, the conclusions drawn about the “food carrying ape man” is no more established as a scientific certitude than were those surrounding the “mashed lemur”.

Now and again, there will be an argument among researchers regarding whether Neanderthals died out or whether they simply interbred with Homo Sapiens. There are all sorts of sub-theories about the former. Did they die out because they were murdered by Homo Sapiens? Did they die out because the ice sheets receded? The “die out” people believe DNA evidence negates the possibility that they interbred with Homo Sapiens. Others argue that it does not. But nobody really knows, and probably never will know.

Now, when it comes to all that, again, its interesting stuff and kind of fun, really, in the same sort of way that the theories about “why Rome fell” are interesting. But when it comes to the hardened “this is science in the same sort of way that germ theory is science” assertions, I cannot help but suspect the assertions are ideologically motivated, just as I suspect the “young earth” theories, with all their anecdotal “evidence” are ideologically motivated.

Now, to me, it is of no great importance whether the “food carrying ape man” walked upright because he had become more socialized (which smacks of Lamarckian evolutionary theory just a bit) or whether it was a DNA glitch that did not bring disaster with it.

It’s a big deal to both religiously-motivated creationists and young earth promoters to argue their theories. Whether they overstate their evidence (and I think they do) is not important to my life or to my beliefs, but their insistence is at least mildly irritating. It is a big deal to atheists to find “missing links” and argue that somehow they explain human nature fully. I think some of those folks overstate their evidence as well. In both cases, the insistence that they are “scientifically right” is, in my mind, philosophically motivated, and isn’t “scientific fact” at all. It’s “evidence”. The fact that some innocent people have been jailed or executed based on “evidence” should give us pause when considering whether we should hang our hats on mere “evidence” of any kind.
And here we get to the core of whether people accept evolution or not. Either you accept the evidence for it, or you don’t. It’s your choice of course, but there is quite a lot for it and not very much against it. I can’t possibly go into the specifics here, but if you really want to know you should pick up a good book… here are two written by a Roman Catholic:

amazon.com/Finding-Darwins-God-Scientists-Evolution/dp/0060930497
amazon.com/Only-Theory-Evolution-Battle-Americas/dp/B001KVZ6RU/ref=pd_sim_b_1
 
I hope my 10 year old science nerd grandson doesn’t read about this. He will be desperate to find a way to costume up as a Higgs Boson for Halloween. 🙂
It’s definitely scarier thant Godzilla and Dracula put together. 🙂
 
It’s definitely scarier thant Godzilla and Dracula put together. 🙂
Evidently so. Fact is, he could put on almost anything unrecognizable and, when asked, respond that he’s a Higgs boson. Possibly he would want to measure the increased eyelid blinking on the part of the questioner that would result.
 
Of course it was a joke. It was not my purpose to assert that we are descended from wolves, but to assert that if apes did not exist and never did, those who are so intensely dedicated to the notion of evolution would find some other creature from which to claim we are descended.
Maybe not a joke, but inadvertently funny. And as I said, if apes did not exist and never did, then neither would we, so the scenario is moot. Meanwhile, back in the real world, there are quite a few fossils of pre-human hominins which provide evidence, if more were needed for evolution.
I was commenting on the religious fervor with which those who want to believe it, approach the whole subject. Oftentimes people of that quasi-religion find it useful to their philosophy to make what seem to me extreme assertions about the sources and purposes of various aspects of human nature, based on pretty flimsy evidence.
Well I don’t disagree with the assertion that human palaeontologists do often overstep the mark
That’s exactly what people are doing when, for example, they “discover” the reasons why humans walk upright, based on a partial, fossilized skeleton, and make all kinds of assertions about modern human conduct based on those assumed reasons.
Have you actually read the papers? I hardly think they are written in a tone of “religious fervour”, and they say very little or nothing about modern human behaviour. It strikes me that you don’t know either what the evidence is for the hypotheses these guys put forward or the degree of confidence with which they proposed them. I guess you’re not interested in the origins of various unique or unusual human properties, bipedality being one, and that’s fair enough, but other people are interested and think that, apart from the inherent interest, understanding something of the history of humanity throws light on our current condition.
Yes, I realize it is extremely important for some to do that. It’s the religion of some.
If you mean accepting the theory of evolution as being broadly true, then I’d say it’s about as diametrically opposed to a religion as any process to arrive at a belief could be.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
And here we get to the core of whether people accept evolution or not. Either you accept the evidence for it, or you don’t. It’s your choice of course, but there is quite a lot for it and not very much against it. I can’t possibly go into the specifics here, but if you really want to know you should pick up a good book… here are two written by a Roman Catholic:

amazon.com/Finding-Darwins-God-Scientists-Evolution/dp/0060930497
amazon.com/Only-Theory-Evolution-Battle-Americas/dp/B001KVZ6RU/ref=pd_sim_b_1
The “mutually exclusive or” – “whether people accept evolution or not” and “Either you accept the evidence for it or you don’t” may have applied when Darwin was living but it does not apply today.

Considering the work of major evolutionists like Motoo Kimura, Carl R. Woese, Francisco Ayala, Patrick Haggard, John Hawks and others, it is obvious that there is no one-size-fits-all evolutionary theory. The basic evolutionary theory has been expanded into myriad specialties and projections. This means that those who take evolution seriously will seriously consider what aspects of evolution they agree with and not agree with.

For example. Because I, along with four-year-olds, love dinosaurs, I accept all possible evidence for their evolving into other animals. Since I am not a professional scientist, I am free to indulge my creative imagination. 😃 Actually, for me it is easy to accept some form of evolution, i.e., adaptation, founder effect, etc., within the animal kingdom.

However, when it comes to the human species, which I set apart from brute animals like my cousin chilly chimp, I am very selective about what evolutionists propose regarding my own human nature. Maybe I should describe myself as a cafeteria evolutionist. 😉

Blessings,

All human life is sacred.
 
Maybe not a joke, but inadvertently funny. And as I said, if apes did not exist and never did, then neither would we, so the scenario is moot. Meanwhile, back in the real world, there are quite a few fossils of pre-human hominins which provide evidence, if more were needed for evolution.
I think I know whether I intended a joke or not; perhaps even better than you do. There’s no point in descending to a personal attack here.

And again you’re assuming your conclusion in proclaiming that the “if apes did not exist and never did, then neither would we”. I’m not even sure you agree with your own statement. It is not necessary, even to an evolutionist, that apes as we know them ever existed as a necessary precondition to our existence. It is only necessary that, in evolutionary theory, the pregenitors of man existed. I don’t think even evolutionists believe anymore that men are descended from what we know as apes. They believe both apes and men derived from some remote common ancestor. You could lop the “ape” branches off at the trunk and still have the “man” branches emerging from the trunk.

I restate my comments about “evidence”.
 
If you mean accepting the theory of evolution as being broadly true, then I’d say it’s about as diametrically opposed to a religion as any process to arrive at a belief could be.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
Agreed. Accepting the theory of evolution as being broadly true, is about as diametrically opposed to a true religion as any process to arrive at a belief could be.

I also do not equate philosophy with being a religion per se. Nonetheless, in practical terms, a philosophy or philosophies can serve as a foundation or partial foundation for both religion and science.
 
I’m not touting any of those theories on your film. They’re all passingly interesting, but nobody can prove any of them, so to me, they simply remain passingly interesting. To academics who wrestle with one another in journals, it’s a more serious matter. Some become famous and get lecture invitations, tenure and all that, and some don’t. To others, it’s important to overstate what the actual evidence demonstrates for ideological reasons. So, for example, it may be philosophically important for a certain kind of religious believer to overstate the evidence for “intelligent design”. It can be equally important for an atheist to overstate the evidence that human nature is molded by survival strategies in the process of natural selection. …
Well, I agree with a lot of what you write here with regard to some scientists (and human paleaontologists are notorious for this) taking a stronger position than warranted by the evidence - it goes all the way back to Raymond Dart and before, and sometimes they are just out in la-la land. Also I agree that the details of human evolution are in no sense known as confidently, as say, the behaviour of massive bodies in a gravitational interaction (but the fact of evolution, common descent and natural selection as an important process in evolution *are *known with as much confidence as anything else in science - and form the foundation of modern biology).

However, there a couple of things on which I don’t quite agree with you. First, I don’t think the major motivation for this behaviour is to lend credence to a worldview, but simple professional ambition, envy and an overweening desire to be right. Second, I don’t think that the unfortunate tendency of some scientists to do this means that all work on human pre-history amounts to just-so stories - on the contrary we have learned a great deal in the last century from the increasing array of palaeontological, anatomical and molecular evidence. Third, I wouldn’t be as dogmatic as you in claiming that things that we cannot test now will remain untestable and unknowable in future. For example , it’s becoming clearer from comparative genomics as the Neanderthal DNA sequencing project proceeds that the level of interbreeding between Neanderthals and Europeans was minimal. Controversies take a long time to die down, but they eventually do - no-one posits Cartesian dynamics anymore… The same goes for fundamental physics hypotheses which will ultimately have to make testable predictions, just as GR and QM and QED did. Fourth, the work on Ar ramidus is a lot more carefully thought through and evidenced than you understand. And finally, your statement that the evidence for evolution is wondrously thin, speaks of a total ignorance of what the evidence actually is.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
Agreed. Accepting the theory of evolution as being broadly true, is about as diametrically opposed to a true religion as any process to arrive at a belief could be.

I also do not equate philosophy with being a religion per se. Nonetheless, in practical terms, a philosophy or philosophies can serve as a foundation or partial foundation for both religion and science.
It’s about as diametrically opposed to any religion as could be (a “true religion” being an oxymoron , in my view…:)).

As for foundational philosophies, science needs hardly any - it needs the axioms that the universe is at least somewhat understandable and uncapricious and that our sense experience corresponds more or less accurately to an external reality. Not much else, really.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
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