Did apes descend from us?

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It’s about as diametrically opposed to any religion as could be (a “true religion” being an oxymoron , in my view…:)).

As for foundational philosophies, science needs hardly any - it needs the axioms that the universe is at least somewhat understandable and uncapricious and that our sense experience corresponds more or less accurately to an external reality. Not much else, really.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
Is there a religion you would agree has more truth than others?

So our senses can view all of reality? The idea then of multiverses or additional dimensions would be an problem for you?

Would you also agree that a Catholic who communes with Jesus at Holy Eucharist is corresponding with an external reality?
 
The aquatic ape theory did not say “man descended from the same family as seals, walruses, whales and elephants” as you claimed. Were you trying to be deliberately dishonest?
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no merely making the point that stating a theory, or mis-stating a theory posed by someone else, the tactic which makes up most of the volume of this thread, does not make it true, and attacking other people on a personal level does not make one philosopher.

I challenge on of you bona fide philosophers here to demonstrate that evolving from apes in trees grooming one another for fleas into higher primates in chat rooms slinging ad hominem attacks represents an evolutionary advance.
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no merely making the point that stating a theory, or mis-stating a theory posed by someone else, the tactic which makes up most of the volume of this thread, does not make it true, and attacking other people on a personal level does not make one philosopher.

I challenge on of you bona fide philosophers here to demonstrate that evolving from apes in trees grooming one another for fleas into higher primates in chat rooms slinging ad hominem attacks represents an evolutionary advance.
It seemed to me that you were trying to discredit the current understanding of human evolution by referring to a theory you didn’t understand. If you were trying to make some kind of point, I believe you missed the mark.

Regardless, are you now stating that we are no better than apes in trees grooming one another for fleas?
 
Regardless, are you now stating that we are no better than apes in trees grooming one another for fleas?
Naturalistically, that is correct. It depends on what your criteria for “better” would be. And any such valuation would be subjective.
 
Fourth, the work on Ar ramidus is a lot more carefully thought through and evidenced than you understand. And finally, your statement that the evidence for evolution is wondrously thin, speaks of a total ignorance of what the evidence actually is.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
Perhaps so, but maybe instead of simply attributing total ignorance to me, you might tell us what the most important conclusions are concerning ar ramidus and why we should think them.

This, for example:

“In modern monkeys and apes, the upper canine is important in male agonistic behavior, so its subdued shape in early hominids and Ar. ramidus suggests that sexual selection played a primary role in canine reduction.”

Now, to me, that’s a leap. How do they know this, and why are they persuaded of it? Did they interview Ar ramidus women and find that 9 out of 10 thought large upper canines unattractive? Obviously, they didn’t. Human weapons, even early on, were more dangerous, and got progressively more so as time went on. Why was that weapon-making trait successful and progressive in humans while apes pretty much just got stuck with big muscles and big canines? And why do female apes not recoil from their large-toothed males in favor of those with smaller teeth, if female Ar ramidus thought it sensible to do so?

Are the “racial” variations in teeth (Australoids perhaps being the most interesting) of modern men due to sexual selection as well? Or is that something else entirely, and not particularly important from an evolutionary standpoint? If not important, then why do those differences exist? What differences should we consider important and why?

It seems to me there is a lot of looking at a result and reasoning to a cause going on in at least some of the evolutionary “science”. I guess that’s inevitable when no hypotheses can actually be tested or reporoduced. But to me, the “food carrying” explanation for ancient ancestors’ walking upright is just not adequate for many reasons; not the least of them being that many animals that don’t even have hands carry food, and some of them do it a lot better than we do.

And how many ar ramidus have they actually found? Isn’t it just one? How do they know that one is typical, and not an aberration? If I recall correctly, when I first heard about it, they weren’t even sure whether the partial skeleton was that of a male or a female.

Finally, I see how you came to the conclusion that I was saying the “evidence for evolution is wonderously thin”. I should have been more careful, because I do not think that. What I was attempting to convey is that the bases for many of the conclusions people derive from things like a single partial skeleton or a mashed lemur are wonderously thin.
 
Ah! I see that my information is old. I guess they now figure the most complete skeleton of ar ramidus (the others seem to be fragments) is female. Perhaps someone has published their reasons for thinking female teeth would, in ar ramidus, indicate what male teeth would be like in a male ar ramidus, when, in apes, they do not. But I have not run across the explanation.
 
Is there a religion you would agree has more truth than others?
No, if we are considering solely their beliefs about supernatural agents.
So our senses can view all of reality?
No I didn’t say that. But what our senses observe is a good approximation of reality (otherwise we wouldn’t survive very long). And all that we can *know *comes to us through our senses.
The idea then of multiverses or additional dimensions would be an problem for you?
The ideas are not problems in themselves, but they are not knowledge unless and until they make falsifiable true predictions whilst also being compatible with everything else we know - which neither multiverse nor string theory have as yet done. They do not currently constitute knowledge.
Would you also agree that a Catholic who communes with Jesus at Holy Eucharist is corresponding with an external reality?
No, (and I answer plainly because you ask me directly) she is corresponding with an imaginary agent and/or herself.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
No, if we are considering solely their beliefs about supernatural agents.

No I didn’t say that. But what our senses observe is a good approximation of reality (otherwise we wouldn’t survive very long). And all that we can *know *comes to us through our senses. The ideas are not problems in themselves, but they are not knowledge unless and until they make falsifiable true predictions whilst also being compatible with everything else we know - which neither multiverse nor string theory have as yet done. They do not currently constitute knowledge.

No, (and I answer plainly because you ask me directly) she is corresponding with an imaginary agent and/or herself.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
So they are all equally false? You cannot find one that is closer to reality than another?
 
. And as I said, if apes did not exist and never did, then neither would we,…


I guess you’re not interested in the origins of various unique or unusual human properties, bipedality being one, and that’s fair enough, but other people are interested and think that, apart from the inherent interest, understanding something of the history of humanity throws light on our current condition.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
Alec,

Does Post 74, Ridgerunner, provide the answer to why humans would exist if apes did not exist?

What are the other unique or unusual human properties, bipedality being one (from your post 72)? I’m definitely one of those people who are interested in understanding something of the history of humanity. Otherwise, I would not be struggling with Francisco Ayala.
 
Perhaps so, but maybe instead of simply attributing total ignorance to me, you might tell us what the most important conclusions are concerning ar ramidus and why we should think them.
Perhaps you should just read the work.
This, for example:
“In modern monkeys and apes, the upper canine is important in male agonistic behavior, so its subdued shape in early hominids and Ar. ramidus suggests that sexual selection played a primary role in canine reduction.”
Now, to me, that’s a leap. How do they know this, and why are they persuaded of it? Did they interview Ar ramidus women and find that 9 out of 10 thought large upper canines unattractive? Obviously, they didn’t. Human weapons, even early on, were more dangerous, and got progressively more so as time went on. Why was that weapon-making trait successful and progressive in humans while apes pretty much just got stuck with big muscles and big canines? And why do female apes not recoil from their large-toothed males in favor of those with smaller teeth, if female Ar ramidus thought it sensible to do so?
The answers to many of these questions are to be found in Suwa et al, Paleobiological Implications of the Ardipithecus ramidus Dentition, Science 326, 94 - 99 and in the papers cited in that one. The conclusions of progressive reduction in upper canine size, change in canine morphology, the loss of honing in the CP3 complex which begin with Miocene apes and continue through Orrorin tungenensis, Sahelanthropus tchandensis, Ar kadabba, the australopithecenes and Homo to modern humans is robustly evidenced. Combining that with observations about timing of canine eruption in Ar ramidus, extant apes and extant humans, and simultaneous reductions in sexual dimorphism and observations that an enhanced UC is critical to sexual success in Pan troglodytes and other primates, leads to the reasonable hypothesis that a large UC and honing in CP3 complex (along with sexual dimorphism) are conserved in conditions of physical male-male sexual competition and have been lost in the human lineage by relaxed selection.

Sexual selection does not just mean mate selection as you seem to think, but also (in fact primarily) includes traits deriving from male-male sex-related conflict, as in this case.

Oh, and did you miss the point that Ar ramidus pre-dates tool use by 2.5 million years?
Are the “racial” variations in teeth (Australoids perhaps being the most interesting) of modern men due to sexual selection as well? Or is that something else entirely, and not particularly important from an evolutionary standpoint? If not important, then why do those differences exist? What differences should we consider important and why?
Well there are natural variations within any species in any parameter that you care to measure, and some can be shown to be selected for (for example skin pigmentation) and others represent no more than random drift. But differences become important from an evolutionary point of view when they fall outside the intraspecific range. In the case of the male UC, modern human crown height ranges from 7 to 10mm, Ar ramidus from 9 to 12mm, in chimpanzee from 13mm to 19mm and in gorilla from 18 to 26mm. Even more significantly the difference between male and female in humans is 4% to 9%, in Ar ramidus from 10% to 15% and in modern great apes from 19% to 47%.
But to me, the “food carrying” explanation for ancient ancestors’ walking upright is just not adequate for many reasons; not the least of them being that many animals that don’t even have hands carry food, and some of them do it a lot better than we do.
Well, I don’t think this hypothesis is as simplistic as you represent it if you read the work, but in any case you need to look at the food carrying capabilities of apes, not just any animal.
And how many ar ramidus have they actually found? Isn’t it just one?
No, specimens representing about 35 individuals from Aramis, with a minimum of 14 individuals for both upper canine and upper second molar, plus seven individuals from another site.
If I recall correctly, when I first heard about it, they weren’t even sure whether the partial skeleton was that of a male or a female.
A probable female because of the relative size of UC and post-cranium.
What I was attempting to convey is that the bases for many of the conclusions people derive from things like a single partial skeleton or a mashed lemur are wonderously thin.
What you have shown is that your knowledge of the evidence and conclusions presented in the suite of research papers is wondrously thin. I recommend that you read the actual work before you leap in to criticise it.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
And again you’re assuming your conclusion in proclaiming that the “if apes did not exist and never did, then neither would we”. I’m not even sure you agree with your own statement. It is not necessary, even to an evolutionist, that apes as we know them ever existed as a necessary precondition to our existence. It is only necessary that, in evolutionary theory, the pregenitors of man existed. I don’t think even evolutionists believe anymore that men are descended from what we know as apes. They believe both apes and men derived from some remote common ancestor. You could lop the “ape” branches off at the trunk and still have the “man” branches emerging from the trunk.
You miss the point. Cladistically, taxonomically, anatomically, physiologically, molecularly, humans *are *apes. If apes did not exist and never had, then neither would we, because the particular clade that we belong to would not exist. Of course you could be an evolution-denier and a believer in the special creation of humans, but then no evidence will be sufficient for you. If, on the other hand you accept common descent and the fact of evolution, then it is necessarily the case that Homo sapiens had non-human ancestors which we might or might not be able to find (at the time of Darwin, none had been found). If we could not find any, what makes you think that anyone would seriously propose recent human descent from a clade which is taxonomically remote as canines? If no great apes had survived, cladistic analysis of extant species would nest humans with old world monkeys as our closest living relatives, not canines. But all this is fantasy, because we have found ancient hominins and Miocene apes.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
Think it through.
OK, I think I have, cannot see why not. Why can one not desire what one cannot know?

I’d like know what other universes exist, if any, outside our own. This is something I cannot know, yet I desire it. Is there a rule I missed stating I can’t desire such?

-TS
 
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