Did Apostles think Jesus was coming back soon?

[Joe_5859]

I often hear it said that the Apostles and other disciples delayed writing down the Gospels because they thought Jesus was coming back any time. Only after some of them started dying off did they think, “Maybe we should start getting some of this down on paper!”

Is this accurate? It seems that if Jesus said “No one knows the hour” the Apostles wouldn’t be banking on it happening within their lifetime. It just doesn’t sit well with me because it seems to imply that the Apostles goofed on a major point of theology if they didn’t even consider that the Second Coming was not imminent.

If anyone could shed some light on this it would be most appreciated!

 

[George_Craft]

Hi Joe,

I don’t know why the 2 apostles waited so long to write their Gospels, or why Luke and Mark wrote in place of Peter and the others.

This is only conjecture on my part, but I suppose they were very busy teaching and spreading the Gospel and eventually decided they should write things down so there was no confusion on their teachings. You know how only word of mouth teaching can get crossed up when it gets passed on by third parties.

As far as Jesus return being imminent to them, I think this verse after Jesus discourse on the end times would say they did:

Mat 24:34 Amen I say to you that this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.

With love,
George

 

[mlchance]

The idea that the Apostles thought Jesus’ return was to take place within their lives has little to no substantive evidence to back it up. It’s basically just a popular opinion, pushed originally by more skeptical theologians to undermine Apostolic and Biblical authority.

That point aside, we need to remember that we’ve been living in the “end times” since the Ascension.



– Mark L. Chance.

 

[water]

There was nothing to back up that they were waiting for Jesus to come back to their time. On the other hand, they did know that the time of Jesus coming back would be unknown to everybody except the Father as it says in the Scriptures.

I believe Luke wasn’t the second generation after the death of Jesus. He wrote the Gospel based on his research and those who had come before him. Therefore, it did take time.

Luke 1
1-For as much as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a narration of the things that have been accomplished among us; 2-According as they have delivered them unto us, who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word: 3-It seemed good to me also, having diligently attained to all things from the beginning, to write to thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,

 

[tm30]

The Apostles were not busy writing Gospels because Jesus did not command it of them. He told them to go out and make disciples of all nations, not compile memoirs.

When the time came, the Holy Spirit inspired the Gospels to be written, and it was timed perfectly according to God’s plan. The Apostles were not negligent in their responsibility because it wasn’t their responsibility to begin with. Thus demonstrating that the first and foremost teacher of the Gospel was not the Gospel in written form, but oral tradition. The writing of the Gospels did not require or demand the abandonment of oral tradition, but supplemented and verified what tradition taught.

 

[NotWorthy]

If not the Apostles, it seems some of the Churches that Paul wrote to thought that the End of Times would be soon. I’m not sure which of the Epistles addressed this right off hand.

 

[Verbum]

Hi Joe,

Jesus CAN come back any time. He said he would come like a thief in the night. The apostles were certainly prepared for his return ANY time. And so were the first Christians.

But there is no reason to believe that that is why the gospels were written rather late. The Bible is the product of community reflection on the mysteries of God. The New Testament gives us four results of these reflections on the mission of Jesus.

Jesus was called “Rabbi”. This indicates that his teaching methods were rabbinical. And the rabbinical method was oral. Formulas were repeated over and over, until they were memorized.

It is reasonable to believe that the apostles and other teachers used the method used by Jesus, especially in Jewish environments, which were the first targets of evangelization, even outside of Palestine.

One can also surmise that, as the Gospel spread among non-Jews, and as the apostles were dying, there was pressure to put the teaching down in writing. No great mystery here.

Verbum

 

[catholica]

None of the NT authors explained why they waited so long, so all we can do is come up with educated guesses.

I, personally, think that their expectiation of the Parousia in their lifetime is a very good logical possibility for why they did not write earlier.

I see a couple who are against this thought. Why so? What other logical reasons might there be?

 

[Liberian]

Joe,

There is a very telling statement about this in I Thessalonians 4:17. Paul is writing about Christians who have died, saying that when Jesus returns they will rise to life first; “then we who are alive” will go meet Jesus. Obviously he expected Jesus to return before he (Paul) died.

• Liberian

 

[mlchance]

There is a very telling statement about this in I Thessalonians 4:17. Paul is writing about Christians who have died, saying that when Jesus returns they will rise to life first; “then we who are alive” will go meet Jesus. Obviously he expected Jesus to return before he (Paul) died.

Not at all obviously. The Apostle’s scenario summarized above could just as easily be true tomorrow.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Liberian]

Not at all obviously. The Apostle’s scenario summarized above could just as easily be true tomorrow.

– Mark L. Chance.

Mark,

I am keying on the word “we” in that verse: “we who are alive.” Paul expected himself and his readers, at least most of them, to be in that number. That is why I said that he expected Jesus to return before Paul’s death.

• Liberian

 

[mlchance]

I am keying on the word “we” in that verse: “we who are alive.” Paul expected himself and his readers, at least most of them, to be in that number. That is why I said that he expected Jesus to return before Paul’s death.

Again, that isn’t a necessary conclusion, but only a possible one. Consider another famous text that starts: “We the People of the United States…”

Does the “we” in that text apply only to those who were alive when it was written? Or did not the author have the very clear impression in mind that his words applied not only to his generation, but to future generations as well.

The term “we” isn’t necessarily time specific. When I read the Apostle’s words “we who are alive,” am I not one of those who is alive?

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[uair]

I agree with Liberian when he says that the disciples expected that Jesus would return during their lifetime:
Matthew 16:27-28 : Jesus was talking to his disciples and the he tells them that “… some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
Matthew 24:30-34 : Jesus is talking about the second coming and he states: “… this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.”
well, those who advocate that Jesus is going to come back in the future tend to change the meaning of the word “generation”. But I rather use “generation” as: “a group of individuals, most of whom are the same approximate age, having similar ideas, problems, attitudes, etc.”
Matthew 10:22-23 : “… you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.”
I do not think that Israel is that big that a fleeing man could not finish all of its cities in about 2000 years.
1 Corinthians 7:29-31 : “What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. …” 2000 years doesn’t look like a “short time”. Anyway, It seems to me that Paul wrote the Corinthians with urgency.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18: “… we who are still alive … After that, we who are still alive …” I cuote this again because the context suggest that Paul expected to be alive when Jesus came back; it seems very weird to me that someone would write “we who are still alive” when he knows that probably he’ll be dead when most of their readers read what he wrote, he could have writen instead “those of you who are still alive” or something alike.
Contrary of what many people in this forums states, I think that there is evidence to back up that the apostles thought that Jesus’ return would happen during their life times.

P.D. I found those versicles navigating, this is not of my own research.

 

[mich2]

I agree with Liberian when he says that the disciples expected that Jesus would return during their lifetime:

I personally disagree; many jews during the time of the apostles believed, as many jews still believe today, that 6,000 years will have elapsed between the Fall of humanity and the coming Messiahs.

ou.org/pardes/here.htm

The Jewish timeline has a beginning and an end. Generation after generation we walk this line not to create a future, but rather to explore and discover that which already lies before us. The sages of the Talmud have taught us that the world in which we live will last 6,000 years. (We are now in the year 5760.)

Peter,in his epistle, writes to the church concerning the “coming of Christ”. He said that Jesus was not slow in coming, and that they certainly were living in the last “days” (plurial), but that "** a Day was as a thousand years for the Lord.**

This would coincide with the Talmud.

Matthew 16:27-28 : Jesus was talking to his disciples and the he tells them that “… some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

I believe that Jesus was saying that some would not die before His return in the same way Enoch and Elijah were preserved from death…Mary and John comes to mind.

Matthew 24:30-34 : Jesus is talking about the second coming and he states: “… this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.”

I personally understand that by “this generation” to mean the one that will have witnessed the signs of His coming.

well, those who advocate that Jesus is going to come back in the future tend to change the meaning of the word “generation”. But I rather use “generation” as: “a group of individuals, most of whom are the same approximate age, having similar ideas, problems, attitudes, etc.”
Matthew 10:22-23 : “… you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.”
I do not think that Israel is that big that a fleeing man could not finish all of its cities in about 2000 years.

Again, these are signs of the end times…that is, “before the Son of Man comes.”

1 Corinthians 7:29-31 : “What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. …” 2000 years doesn’t look like a “short time”. Anyway, It seems to me that Paul wrote the Corinthians with urgency.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18: “… we who are still alive … After that, we who are still alive …” I cuote this again because the context suggest that Paul expected to be alive when Jesus came back; it seems very weird to me that someone would write “we who are still alive” when he knows that probably he’ll be dead when most of their readers read what he wrote, he could have writen instead “those of you who are still alive” or something alike.
Contrary of what many people in this forums states, I think that there is evidence to back up that the apostles thought that Jesus’ return would happen during their life times.

P.D. I found those versicles navigating, this is not of my own research.

While Paul seemed to be living in awaiting the coming of Christ, this is the manner of life he is telling us that we ought to live. However, while he speaks in such a way, he nevertheless does not claim to be personally alive at the coming of the Messiah since he mentions in Philippians 1:20, “Christ will be exalted in my body ,whether by life or by death…”

Andre

 

[uair]

I personally disagree; many jews during the time of the apostles believed, as many jews still believe today, that 6,000 years will have elapsed between the Fall of humanity and the coming Messiahs.

ou.org/pardes/here.htm

Quote:
The Jewish timeline has a beginning and an end. Generation after generation we walk this line not to create a future, but rather to explore and discover that which already lies before us. The sages of the Talmud have taught us that the world in which we live will last 6,000 years. (We are now in the year 5760.)

Peter,in his epistle, writes to the church concerning the “coming of Christ”. He said that Jesus was not slow in coming, and that they certainly were living in the last “days” (plurial), but that " a Day was as a thousand years for the Lord.

This would coincide with the Talmud.

If Paul did think that the world that we live in is going to last 6000 years, and I guess that he also knew that in the jewish timeline they were around the year 4000 back then, why would he use the expresion “short time” when he wrote to the Corinthians if he was talking about 2000 years? (at least, since the end hasn’t ocurred yet) that’s about 33% of the total age of the world, quite a lot if you ask me.

I believe that Jesus was saying that some would not die before His return in the same way Enoch and Elijah were preserved from death…Mary and John comes to mind.

Nothing in the text suggest that he was talking about Elijah or Enoch nor of their alleged preservation from death. Besides, there is no evidence in the bible about the assumption of Mary nor John (maybe you could give me some pointers here).

I personally understand that by “this generation” to mean the one that will have witnessed the signs of His coming.

If you read the whole chapter (Matthew 24) it’s very clear that Jesus is talking to his disciples, he uses the word “you” very often, furthermore when he refers to the generation in question he uses “this” instead of “that”, since, if he was refering to a future generation it seems more natural to use another language a little bit less unclear.

Again, these are signs of the end times…that is, “before the Son of Man comes.”

This is another reunion where Jesus talk to his disciples using the word “you” several times.

While Paul seemed to be living in awaiting the coming of Christ, this is the manner of life he is telling us that we ought to live. However, while he speaks in such a way, he nevertheless does not claim to be personally alive at the coming of the Messiah since he mentions in Philippians 1:20, “Christ will be exalted in my body ,whether by life or by death…”

I wonder why Paul wrote a letter in such an urgent manner if he knew that he was living the last “days” and a day was a thousand years for the Lord.

Thanks for your time

Hugo

 

[mich2]

If Paul did think that the world that we live in is going to last 6000 years, and I guess that he also knew that in the jewish timeline they were around the year 4000 back then, why would he use the expresion “short time” when he wrote to the Corinthians if he was talking about 2000 years? (at least, since the end hasn’t ocurred yet) that’s about 33% of the total age of the world, quite a lot if you ask me.^

Clearly some did indeed believe the end of time was near;understandably so,and Paul could have been one of them. We need to understand that great signs had been witnessed already, such as the healing of the sick and the raising of the dead. However, Paul himself had to warn those who thought the coming of Christ was within their generation, that some specific signs were to happen before Christ would return. He spoke of the** “man of sin” who will display all kinds of signs and wonders and mislead many to persish.**Notice the man of sin was to be someone as having great power, not simply a Roman Emperor.
Jesus mentioned that before the man of perdition would come, the gospel will have been spread to every nations.This ought to be a clue as to why Jesus did not claim to return during the lifetime of the apostles. How could such a small group of followers accomplish such a great feat in so little time?

Nothing in the text suggest that he was talking about Elijah or Enoch nor of their alleged preservation from death. Besides, there is no evidence in the bible about the assumption of Mary nor John (maybe you could give me some pointers here).

While nothing in the text suggests a parallel between Elijah and Mary, or John and Enoch, both old testament prophets were believed to having been preserved from death.For example, in Hebrews 11: 5, it reads:" by faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he would not experience death.".It was believed that Enoch, who was called" friend of God", wrote an apocalyptic book call The Book of Enoch, or the Secret of Enoch. John, the apostle Jesus loved, also wrote the apocalyptic book Revelation.
Elijah was nourrished in the desert by angels during the time of the drought which, according to Jesus, lasted 3.5 years. The Woman in Revelation, recognized as Mary by Catholics, is also led in the desert and fed during the same duration time period.
In John’s gospel, there was a rumor spread among christians that John would not die. The reason was because Jesus said to Peter "what is it to you if this apostle remains alive until I return? Notice that only John is believed to remain until the return of Christ, which clearly points away from the belief that Jesus would return within their (all of them) lifetimes.

If you read the whole chapter (Matthew 24) it’s very clear that Jesus is talking to his disciples, he uses the word “you” very often, furthermore when he refers to the generation in question he uses “this” instead of “that”, since, if he was refering to a future generation it seems more natural to use another language a little bit less unclear.

True; but the word you, in my opinion designates the Church; that is, not only the indivuals who were hearing Jesus speak, but all of those who would afterwards read or hear the Word in belief.

This is another reunion where Jesus talk to his disciples using the word “you” several times.

I wonder why Paul wrote a letter in such an urgent manner if he knew that he was living the last “days” and a day was a thousand years for the Lord.

Thanks for your time

Hugo

Still, they are signs of the end times…that is, “before the Son of Man comes.”

Thank you for your time as well, Hugo.

Andre

 

[mich2]

I often hear it said that the Apostles and other disciples delayed writing down the Gospels because they thought Jesus was coming back any time. Only after some of them started dying off did they think, “Maybe we should start getting some of this down on paper!”

Is this accurate? It seems that if Jesus said “No one knows the hour” the Apostles wouldn’t be banking on it happening within their lifetime. It just doesn’t sit well with me because it seems to imply that the Apostles goofed on a major point of theology if they didn’t even consider that the Second Coming was not imminent.

If anyone could shed some light on this it would be most appreciated!

It is to my personal opinion that the apostles centered on founding churches above that of writing gospels. Notice that all we have are actually four gospels, three of which are synoptics.How much was revealed in those gospel, John clearly manifests, “if we were to have written all of what Jesus said or did, there would not be a book big enough to support it all” If it was meant for Jesus’ words all to be written down, then, the apostles greatly failed in what they were to called to do. However, this was not their commission. Go and teach, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and of the Holy Spirit. While little writings existed in the beginning, the Church flourished so much in so little time, as to cause panic even among the Romans.

Pliny(died in 79AD)wrote concerning christians

…**.It is not only the cities, but also the towns and even the country villages which are being infected with this cult-contagion.

It seems possible to check and reverse this direction at this point, for it is quite clear that the Temples of the Gods which have been empty for so long, now begin to be filled again, the sacred rites which had lapsed are now being performed and flesh for sacrificial rites is now sold again at the shops, although for a while nobody would buy it. So it seems reasonable to think that a great many people could be persuaded to reform, IF there were a legal procedure for Repentance.**

Notice that a persecution was needed to stop the Church from growing.

The rest of the writings are mostly letters written to strengthen and encourage the faithfull. There is also one very small book having an historical outlook on the church, which could have been for the same reasons as for Josephus writing concerning the history of the Jews.The last book is apocalyptic, meaning a revelation, a manifestation of Jesus, although very few today know fully it’s concept, and so, therefore, “revelation” is not yet a proper name for the book, it seems.

Andre

 

[uair]

Clearly some did indeed believe the end of time was near;understandably so,and Paul could have been one of them. We need to understand that great signs had been witnessed already, such as the healing of the sick and the raising of the dead. However, Paul himself had to warn those who thought the coming of Christ was within their generation, that some specific signs were to happen before Christ would return. He spoke of the “man of sin” who will display all kinds of signs and wonders and mislead many to persish.Notice the man of sin was to be someone as having great power, not simply a Roman Emperor.
Jesus mentioned that before the man of perdition would come, the gospel will have been spread to every nations.This ought to be a clue as to why Jesus did not claim to return during the lifetime of the apostles. How could such a small group of followers accomplish such a great feat in so little time?

ok, so Paul had to make clear to everyone that some specific signs were to happen before the second coming of Christ, but it still puzzles me the fact that he uses the expresion “short time” in his letter to the corinthians if he knew that the gospel had to be widespred over all nations before Jesus came back, did he think that it would take them little time undertaking such a great task?

While nothing in the text suggests a parallel between Elijah and Mary, or John and Enoch, both old testament prophets were believed to having been preserved from death.For example, in Hebrews 11: 5, it reads:" by faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he would not experience death.".It was believed that Enoch, who was called" friend of God", wrote an apocalyptic book call The Book of Enoch, or the Secret of Enoch. John, the apostle Jesus loved, also wrote the apocalyptic book Revelation.
Elijah was nourrished in the desert by angels during the time of the drought which, according to Jesus, lasted 3.5 years. The Woman in Revelation, recognized as Mary by Catholics, is also led in the desert and fed during the same duration time period.
In John’s gospel, there was a rumor spread among christians that John would not die. The reason was because Jesus said to Peter "what is it to you if this apostle remains alive until I return? Notice that only John is believed to remain until the return of Christ, which clearly points away from the belief that Jesus would return within their (all of them) lifetimes.

Granted that Enoch and Elijah were preserved from dead, what makes you think that Mary and John were preserved aswell? I do not think a rumor is a satisfactory evidence to conclude that John did not die. I would appreciate that you could point me some references for your claims, a passage or chapter would be good enough; I’ll try to correspond in the same way.

True; but the word you, in my opinion designates the Church; that is, not only the indivuals who were hearing Jesus speak, but all of those who would afterwards read or hear the Word in belief.

Then, it seems to me that Jesus had a very unusual and confusing way of stating things of great importance, because they are subject of misinterpretations, since if I were sitting near him in one of this gathers I would be certain that he is talking about the people who is there with him, not the people to come; but you understand him rather different, so I think is usuless to debate this issue anymore, don’t you think?

Still, they are signs of the end times…that is, “before the Son of Man comes.”

I do not undestand what you mean here, how Paul writing a letter with urgency is a sign of the end of times? please, explain a little more.
Thanks again

Hugo

 

[mich2]

ok, so Paul had to make clear to everyone that some specific signs were to happen before the second coming of Christ, but it still puzzles me the fact that he uses the expresion “short time” in his letter to the corinthians if he knew that the gospel had to be widespred over all nations before Jesus came back, did he think that it would take them little time undertaking such a great task?

I believe it is clear that there were indeed some who believed the coming of the Lord was very near, and that Paul might have been one of them, although, I’m not convinced that he was.It was Peter who addressed the issue that a day for the Lord was as a thousand years.

Granted that Enoch and Elijah were preserved from dead, what makes you think that Mary and John were preserved aswell? I do not think a rumor is a satisfactory evidence to conclude that John did not die. I would appreciate that you could point me some references for your claims, a passage or chapter would be good enough; I’ll try to correspond in the same way.

I think the question we need to ask is** why** was there a rumor to begin with? It must have come from the words of Jesus in
Matthew 16:27-28 : “… some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” These words of Jesus were indeed on the hearts of many, although it was interpreted differently, as some believed it to mean that Jesus would return within their lifetime. Now, if a rumor circulated that John would not die, it must be due to some beleiving they would not live to see the coming of Christ. In Matthew 12:39, Jesus said " A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the belly of the earth. It seems to me that Jesus clearly is saying that the generation who saw Him perform miracles would not see any other signs except His resurrection. This leaves out all of the signs that are being constantly being reminded to the apostles concerning the end time period.
This, along with the words of Peter ( a day equalling one thousand years) clearly supports scriptures as saying the coming of the Lord would not take place during the generation of the apostles… so to answer your question concerning John and Mary; the only people who have traditionally been claimed to not having died, are John and Mary.If they did indeed die, then, what are we to make of Jesus’ words "… some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." ?

Then, it seems to me that Jesus had a very unusual and confusing way of stating things of great importance, because they are subject of misinterpretations, since if I were sitting near him in one of this gathers I would be certain that he is talking about the people who is there with him, not the people to come; but you understand him rather different, so I think is usuless to debate this issue anymore, don’t you think?

Well, let’s take a closer look at what Jesus meant went he spoke directly to His disciples.Matthew 28:18…" All authority in Heaven and on earth has been given to me.Therefore, go make disciples in every nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and theHoly Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely, I will be with you until the end of the age.
Notice that Jesus is commanding his (disciples or Church) to preach the gospel to every nations and that Jesus would remain with (them or it ) till the end of the age.If He spoke directly to His apostles and not the Church in every age, then, we have a problem. First, the apostles were not able to baptize and teach the gospel to every nations, since their death prevented them from doing so. Also, if the commandement to baptize was given directly to the apostles, then, by whose authority do **we **baptize?

I do not undestand what you mean here, how Paul writing a letter with urgency is a sign of the end of times? please, explain a little more.

Hugo

I think there was a mix up. I was responding to the quotation of Matthew 10:22-23 : “… you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.” As for Paul, we could discuss whether he did believe that Jesus was to return within his own generation or not…I offhand don’t think so, but we could discuss his writings in question.

Andre

 

[Joe_5859]

I agree with Liberian when he says that the disciples expected that Jesus would return during their lifetime:
Matthew 16:27-28 : Jesus was talking to his disciples and the he tells them that “… some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
Matthew 24:30-34 : Jesus is talking about the second coming and he states: “… this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.”
well, those who advocate that Jesus is going to come back in the future tend to change the meaning of the word “generation”. But I rather use “generation” as: “a group of individuals, most of whom are the same approximate age, having similar ideas, problems, attitudes, etc.”
Matthew 10:22-23 : “… you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.”
I do not think that Israel is that big that a fleeing man could not finish all of its cities in about 2000 years.
1 Corinthians 7:29-31 : “What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. …” 2000 years doesn’t look like a “short time”. Anyway, It seems to me that Paul wrote the Corinthians with urgency.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18: “… we who are still alive … After that, we who are still alive …” I cuote this again because the context suggest that Paul expected to be alive when Jesus came back; it seems very weird to me that someone would write “we who are still alive” when he knows that probably he’ll be dead when most of their readers read what he wrote, he could have writen instead “those of you who are still alive” or something alike.
Contrary of what many people in this forums states, I think that there is evidence to back up that the apostles thought that Jesus’ return would happen during their life times.

P.D. I found those versicles navigating, this is not of my own research.

I understand how, reading these verses, one would draw the conclusion that Jesus would return during the Apostles’ lifetime. In plain English, that does seem to be what Jesus is saying. But, we know that the Second Coming did not happen during their lifetime – before that generation “passed away” – so we know these sayings of Jesus did not mean that He would be coming back before they had died (or else it would mean that Jesus was wrong, which I don’t think anyone is arguing).

Is it then likely, or at least possible, that the Apostles would have interpreted it to mean something other than that the Second Coming would happen in their lifetime?