Did Archbishop Mueller say that the SSPX is in schism?

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That could cost them dearly. I hope that they don’t do anything that foolish.

As to tribunals, those tribunals cannot grant valid verdicts. They have no bishop with jurisdiction. I don’t understand how they imagine that this makes any sense. 🤷

A tribunal must be subordinate to an ordinary. The SSPX don’t canonical standing; therefore, the bishops are not ordinaries. Even if they had canonical standing, not every bishop is an ordinary. Only the bishop of a diocese is an ordinary. Other than that, the only other proper ordinary is a male who is a major superior of a religious community, even a little community, as long as he’s the major superior.

The SSPX bishops don’t meet either requirement. They have no diocese, nor are they consecrated male superiors. Bishop Fellay is a secular priest. Even though he’s the superior general, he does not qualify as a major superior.

I have never understood how the whole tribunal thing is supposed to work, because it’s so inconsistent with tradition. :confused:
Brother, have you heard of the Personal Apostolic Administration of St. John Marie Vianney? I think their unique canonical status is something that perhaps the SSPX may speculatively achieve, as opposed to schism.
 
Brother, have you heard of the Personal Apostolic Administration of St. John Marie Vianney? I think their unique canonical status is something that perhaps the SSPX may speculatively achieve, as opposed to schism.
There are many possibilities towards canonical regularization that they may achieve, but any of that can only happen if they drop all the additional terms and rights they demanded from the Holy See during the negotiations. 🙂
 
For one, an automatic excommunication of all involved.
Unless they can legally work their “necessity” justification into it, if it’s still available. Just saying. Who knows what the situation will be 20 years from now?
 
There are some conditions under which the absolution is valid, because the Church supplies. Before we go there, let us be clear that the SSPX’s explanation of Supplied Jurisdiction is its own explanation, not that of the Holy See. It’s only authoritative to them, not to the Church. Only the Church can authoritatively define canonical principles not individuals or institutes.

When does the Church supply jurisdiction to absolve:
  1. In danger of death
  2. While traveling
  3. When the penitent does not know that the priest is suspended and he assumes, in good faith, that the priest has the power and authority to absolve him.
Other than that, the priests of the SSPX must receive faculities/permission to absolve from the local bishop or from a male major superior of religious order. The latter can only grant that permission if the confession is to be heard in a house or institution of the order and those going to confession are under the jurisdiction of the religious superior, such as lay students and all religious.

If you know that the priest is suspended and you decide that the law does not apply, you are acting in a schismatic manner, because you are taking the law into your own hands or accepting the interpretation of someone who is not authorized by the Church to interpret the law.

Marriage is very similar. The form requires that the priest or deacon witnessing the marriage have faculties from the local bishop and permission of the pastor of the territorial parish where the marriage is to take place.

Without the bishop’s permission the marriage is invalid. Without the permission of the territorial pastor the marriage is illegal. I would not want to live wondering about my marriage.

Having said all of this, the SSPX is NOT in the same situation as Protestants nor as Orthodox Christians.

Protestants do not have valid orders. Therefore, there are few valid sacraments in Protestantism. If memory serves me right, only baptism and matrimony.

Orthodox are governed by our Code of Canon Law. The Orthodox Churches have their own code of law. Even though they are in schism, our laws do not apply to them. The only thing that is universal is truth, not legislation.

Therefore, Orthodox clergymen who have permission of their bishops and are validly ordained by their bishops, celebrate valid and licit sacraments. Thus we say that we have a Communion in Sacris with them, which is a communion in the sacred.

We don’t have such a communion with the SSPX, because of the suspended state of its clergy. There are sacraments that it’s clergy cannot validly celebrate. If my memory serves me right, the only sacrament that you can administer without permission is Baptism. The others then would be valid, but illicit/illegal.

But it would be very wrong for us to deny the apostolic succession of the clerics of the SSPX or the validity of their ordination. In fact, ,such a denial is a violation of justice. Their ordinations are illegal, but valid.

. Fr. Farraher was a Jesuit, a canon lawyer, a moral theologian, a holder of a Doctorate in Sacred Theology (STD) from Gregorian University in Rome, and a former president of Alma College.[14] In the October 1983 issue of the "Homiletic & Pastoral Review”, Fr. Joseph J. Farraher, SJ, wrote the following:

As for Archbishop Lefebvre’s priests, see my answer in the Aug.- Sept.1982 issue of Homiletic and Pastoral Review where I stated that, although his priests are illicitly ordained, they are validly ordained and have the radical power to absolve sacramentally. And, although ordinarily priests require “faculties” or jurisdiction to absolve validly and the Archbishop’s priests do not have valid faculties, nevertheless when they enter a confessional in what appears to be a Catholic church, the supreme authority of the Church in Canon Law supplies jurisdiction to them just so that the faithful who approach them in good faith for Confession will not suffer lack of valid absolution.[15]

In the February 1985 issue of Homiletic and Pastoral Review, Fr. Farraher again spoke to the question of confessing to Society priests: “The Masses said, the absolution given, and the marriages witnessed by them are all most probably valid, the latter two categories at least by ‘common error’.”[16]

However, if the opinion of Fr. Farraher isn’t convincing enough, consider the opinion of Paul Augustin Cardinal Mayer. In 1989, as President of the Pontifical Commission “Ecclesia Dei,” Cardinal Mayer responded to a letter written by a Catholic from California asking about the validity of Society sacraments. The Cardinal wrote, “The principle of “common error”, whether on the part of only one faithful or on the part of the community, can be applied in this case, and such acts are thereby valid (cf. canons 144, 976, 1331, 1333, 1335)”[17]

Furthermore, on November 22, 2012 the website for the German District of the SSPX reported that well known canonist Dr. Georg May, made Apostolic Protonotary by Benedict XVI in January 2012,[18] affirmed that the Church supplied jurisdiction in the case of SSPX confessions and that they are, therefore, valid.[19]

In addition, Catholic lawyer and apologist, John Salza, who has appeared on EWTN television and radio and has written books for Our Sunday Visitor[20] has the following to say on the issue:

Would a community of average Catholics be induced to believe that a priest has faculties if they saw that priest celebrating Mass and hearing confessions in a Catholic chapel? Particularly when the chapel is in the public square, advertises its Mass times, has hundreds of congregants and all the other indicia of a Catholic parish? (Remember, the community doesn’t have to actually believe it; only that they could be induced to believe it.) I believe the answer to this question is “Yes.” This is why the community of believers is “capable of having a common error.”[21]
 
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JReducation:
There are some conditions under which the absolution is valid, because the Church supplies. Before we go there, let us be clear that the SSPX’s explanation of Supplied Jurisdiction is its own explanation, not that of the Holy See. It’s only authoritative to them, not to the Church. Only the Church can authoritatively define canonical principles not individuals or institutes.

When does the Church supply jurisdiction to absolve:
  1. In danger of death
  2. While traveling
  3. When the penitent does not know that the priest is suspended and he assumes, in good faith, that the priest has the power and authority to absolve him
.
Observe what I said in red and observe everything that you posted that I marked in red.
. Fr. Farraher was a Jesuit, a canon lawyer, a moral theologian, a holder of a Doctorate in Sacred Theology (STD) from Gregorian University in Rome, and a former president of Alma College.[14] In the October 1983 issue of the "Homiletic & Pastoral Review”, Fr. Joseph J. Farraher, SJ, wrote the following:
As for Archbishop Lefebvre’s priests, see my answer in the Aug.- Sept.1982 issue of Homiletic and Pastoral Review where I stated that, although his priests are illicitly ordained, they are validly ordained and have the radical power to absolve sacramentally. And, although ordinarily priests require “faculties” or jurisdiction to absolve validly and the Archbishop’s priests do not have valid faculties, nevertheless when they enter a confessional in what appears to be a Catholic church, the supreme authority of the Church in Canon Law supplies jurisdiction to them just so that the faithful who approach them in good faith for Confession will not suffer lack of valid absolution.[15]
In the February 1985 issue of Homiletic and Pastoral Review, Fr. Farraher again spoke to the question of confessing to Society priests: “The Masses said, the absolution given, and the marriages witnessed by them are all most probably valid, the latter two categories at least by ‘common error’.”[16]
However, if the opinion of Fr. Farraher isn’t convincing enough, consider the opinion of Paul Augustin Cardinal Mayer. In 1989, as President of the Pontifical Commission “Ecclesia Dei,” Cardinal Mayer responded to a letter written by a Catholic from California asking about the validity of Society sacraments. The Cardinal wrote, **“The principle of “common error”, whether on the part of only one faithful or on the part of the community, can be applied in this case, and such acts are thereby valid **(cf. canons 144, 976, 1331, 1333, 1335)”[17]
Furthermore, on November 22, 2012 the website for the German District of the SSPX reported that well known canonist Dr. Georg May, made Apostolic Protonotary by Benedict XVI in January 2012,[18] affirmed that the Church supplied jurisdiction in the case of SSPX confessions and that they are, therefore, valid.[19]
In addition, Catholic lawyer and apologist, John Salza, who has appeared on EWTN television and radio and has written books for Our Sunday Visitor[20] has the following to say on the issue:
Would a community of average Catholics be induced to believe that a priest has faculties if they saw that priest celebrating Mass and hearing confessions in a Catholic chapel? Particularly when the chapel is in the public square, advertises its Mass times, has hundreds of congregants and all the other indicia of a Catholic parish? (Remember, the community doesn’t have to actually believe it; only that they could be induced to believe it.) I believe the answer to this question is “Yes.” This is why the community of believers is “capable of having a common error.”[21]
Here is the problem. The Church supplies, when there is error on the part of the individual or the community. But she only provides for those who are in error. In other words, for the benefit of those who think that the priest can validly absolve them.

The Church does not provide faculties for those who know that the priest is not allowed to hear their confession, yet obstinately insist on going to him. That penitent is opposing the Church’s sanction, which is the suspension of the priest in question. When the penitent knowingly overrides the suspension, the penitent has engaged in a schismatic mindset himself.

I’m not sure why you posted all of these citations, which us a lot of theobabble to say the same thing that I said in a simple sentence or did you think that I have never seen a theology book?

The Church supplies jurisdiction for the sake of the innocent, not for the benefit of those complicit in disobedience. A suspended cleric may not celebrate any sacraments except in danger of death. The danger has to be observable and iminent.
 
Good friar,

The SSPX genuinely believe there is a crisis in the church. They believe, or at least, give the firm impression that they believe, there is a major crisis of modernism in the magisterium, especially the episcopacy.

They are wrong. They are obstinant in that error.

They also believe that the OF, or at least, the OF as usually performed, is invalid. Again, they are wrong. And again, obstinant in that error.

But those two pernicious errors lead them to remaining apart.

And to seeing themselves as an autonomous arm of the church, much as the UK bishops during the suppressions by the Tudors, or the Bishop of Orange during the suppressions by the Dutch, or the Ukrainian bishops during the Soviet Era.

Then, there is their support of the SSJK… which shows their true colors as the “remnant” mindset. The moment they break, expect them to ordain a bishop for the SSJK, too. The SSJK is at present dependent upon the SSPX.

Note that the SSJK appealed their excommunication by the UGCC Major Archbishop, and were denied by Rome. That the SSPX continues to support them and to remain in communion with them is just another sign of their flawed view of the church.
 
Brother, have you heard of the Personal Apostolic Administration of St. John Marie Vianney? I think their unique canonical status is something that perhaps the SSPX may speculatively achieve, as opposed to schism.
The link is interesting. In my opinion, it is something that might have been doable with the SSPX, the way it was in the 1970s or early 1980s. Today it is unlikely to happen. The SSPX is different. It has a momentum of its own now, above and beyond the TLM, and that is a momentum of opposition to the magisterium.
  1. The SSJV long had a close relationship to the “Roman” bishops of Campos, and compatible relationship with the “regular” clergy and diocese in Campos. The SSPX has such friendly relationships in few, if any dioceses in the world today.
  2. The SSPX has been bitterly opposing the SSJV, since the SSJV “rejoined” Rome. They even set up rival Masses in the territories served by the SSJV. If they can’t collaborate even with the SSJV which has far greater autonomy than the FSSP, for instance, how can they collaborate with local bishops, religious orders, or clergy in general of the Catholic Church?
  3. The situation in Campos, Brazil is somewhat unique given the historical context; it appears to succeed, for now, ONLY as long as the 2 ordinaries work very closely together. It was sort of grandfathered in. It isn’t like the SSPX.
  4. Not everything that is permissible is prudent. It might be canonically feasible to set up something separate but to what benefit? At a time of rising anti-Catholicism in North America and Europe at least, do you really want to fragment Catholicism into separate jurisdictions, even if they all were technically obedient to the Pope (and keep in mind what the SSPX is saying about “this Pope”)? I don’t know the situation in Campos but I predict that if anti Catholicism comes there, as it is here, eventually the territorial diocese will merge with the SSJV. It’s called a fight for survival.
 
Brother, have you heard of the Personal Apostolic Administration of St. John Marie Vianney? I think their unique canonical status is something that perhaps the SSPX may speculatively achieve, as opposed to schism.
I’ve heard of it and tried to do some research on it; but there is not much law out there on this type of arrangement. This is the only one of its kind in the world and not much is in Canon Law yet. When they create a whole canon on the matter and the commentaries to the laws are written, I’ll be in a better place to speculate.

So far, the law briefly skims over this structure, so I don’t know if it would be possible for the SSPX or not. I don’t know, because I don’t have enough knowledge.
 
The SSPX webiste, DICI, has published a statement concerning Archbishop Mueller’s [possible?] claim of schism. I hope it’s alright to post a link to the website. If not, then perhaps the moderator can remove it.

dici.org/en/news/concerning-a-statement-by-abp-muller-on-the-schism-of-the-society-of-st-pius-x/
The article basically says:

  1. *]Rome does not understand what the word schism means.
    *]Abp. Müller does not have credibility because he is affiliated with liberation theology.

    And what’s the deal is with that picture they posted of Abp. Müller at the top of the article? It’s like those pictures of celebrities they put on the cover of the Inquirer or the Globe newspapers to try to make the celebrity look fat/angry/insane.

    The whole thing is surreal.

    -Tim-
 
The article basically says:

  1. *]Rome does not understand what the word schism means.
    *]Abp. Müller does not have credibility because he is affiliated with liberation theology.

    And what’s the deal is with that picture they posted of Abp. Müller at the top of the article? It’s like those pictures of celebrities they put on the cover of the Inquirer or the Globe newspapers to try to make the celebrity look fat/angry/insane.

    The whole thing is surreal.

    -Tim-

  1. You’re probably right, but I find the article to be quite restrained from what I’ve seen from DICI in the past. It seems more defensive rather than polemical (except for the parts that you pointed out).
 
Archbishop Mueller is soon to be Cardinal Mueller. I don’t think they should be calling his credibility into question.
 
I thought that the article was a fairly reasonable explanation of the position of SSPX, which seems to indicate that they may have a schismatic attitude, but they are not officially in schism. I don’t see why there cannot be further internal discussions between the Vatican and the SSPX leading to their regularization in the RCC. If you take a look at what some Catholic theologians have been teaching, and given the fact that many dissenters have not been officially thrown out of the RCC, then it seems like it should not be that difficult for the RCC to officially accept SSPX.
 
then it seems like it should not be that difficult for the RCC to officially accept SSPX.
You have this backwards- the One, Holy, Aposotolic, Church (i.e RCC in your words)
needs not to accept anything. It is the SSPX that needs to accept that they are either part of the Church or not.
 
To be fair, Mueller does have a checkered history with Liberation Theology.

It is also logical to be suspicious of anyone associated with it or who attempts to make it seem as if it’s no big deal.

The fact that Mueller has a visceral negative bias against the SSPX makes me wonder if it’s just his emotions doing all the talking, making him seem less credible in matters pertaining to the Society.

Cardinal Castrillon-Hoyos is a person who is more fair-balanced to inquire about the Society’s status. Unfortunately, he seems to be out of the picture.
 
To be fair, Mueller does have a checkered history with Liberation Theology.

It is also logical to be suspicious of anyone associated with it or who attempts to make it seem as if it’s no big deal.

The fact that Mueller has a visceral negative bias against the SSPX makes me wonder if it’s just his emotions doing all the talking, making him seem less credible in matters pertaining to the Society.

Cardinal Castrillon-Hoyos is a person who is more fair-balanced to inquire about the Society’s status. Unfortunately, he seems to be out of the picture.
We have to be realistic. The Church does not care what we think about Archbishop Mueller. If he speaks authoritatively, as the Prefect, we are expect to accept what he says. It is his role to defend the faith in the name of the pope. Unless the pope recants something that he says, it remains a go. We’re not being asked our opinion. We are being told what the Holy See thinks and wants.

As I told the brothers on Monday night’s meeting. If the Holy See said jump, just jump and be quiet. As long as they don’t ask you to jump over a cliff, jumping is not a sin.
 
We have to be realistic. The Church does not care what we think about Archbishop Mueller. If he speaks authoritatively, as the Prefect, we are expect to accept what he says. It is his role to defend the faith in the name of the pope. Unless the pope recants something that he says, it remains a go. We’re not being asked our opinion. We are being told what the Holy See thinks and wants.

As I told the brothers on Monday night’s meeting. If the Holy See said jump, just jump and be quiet. As long as they don’t ask you to jump over a cliff, jumping is not a sin.
It’s not an issue of the Church caring what we think of Mueller;

it’s an issue of examining OBJECTIVE evidence about Mueller’s theological views and pondering why would Rome ignore the issue of someone who was trained under Gustavo Gutiérrez Merino, the “Father of Liberation Theology”.

If Rome were to tell me to stand on my head and sing Frère Jacques, I would obey
.
If Rome asks me to accept the doctrines and dogmas of the Church from it’s consistent 2,000 year history, I will gladly accept it.

It’s a bit disconcerting reading your text and finding out that you don’t see at least something unusual about Mueller.
 
It’s not an issue of the Church caring what we think of Mueller;

it’s an issue of examining OBJECTIVE evidence about Mueller’s theological views and pondering why would Rome ignore the issue of someone who was trained under Gustavo Gutiérrez Merino, the “Father of Liberation Theology”.

If Rome were to tell me to stand on my head and sing Frère Jacques, I would obey
.
If Rome asks me to accept the doctrines and dogmas of the Church from it’s consistent 2,000 year history, I will gladly accept it.

It’s a bit disconcerting reading your text and finding out that you don’t see at least something unusual about Mueller.
St. Francis was an eminently practical man. He taught his sons and daughters to be the same. What is not our issue does not concern us. Our relationship with Archbishop Mueller is as Prefect of the CDF. What concerns us is what he says as the Prefect. As long as what he says is not heresy, then there is no issue and we have more important matters to worry about such as our community life, our fidelity to the rule, our ministry to the voiceless, our life of prayer and our daily journey. So far, Archbishop Mueller has not said anything to the world that changes any of this.

As St. Francis told us, do as he says and move along.

As far as Fr. Gutierrez is concerned, not everything that Father wrote is problematic. Have you read his works in their entirety?

Archbishop Mueller did not train under Father Gutierrez. He studied Liberation Theology under him. Archbishop Mueller has an STD from Mainze. He did not get his degree in Latin America, nor under the direction of Father Gutierrez. People are freaking out because someone studied something under someone else. But the fact is that the Archbishop has never said anything that is contrary to Church teaching. In fact, he is one of Pope Benedict’s staunchest supporters and closest friends. He’s also the editor of Opera Omnia, but no one mentions that.

The characterization of the Archbishop on these threads is very one-sided. You want to be careful with several things.
  1. The Archbishop’s education is much broader than Liberation Theology.
  2. Liberation Theology has some good things to say.
  3. The Archbishop has never been unorthodox in his teaching.
  4. As Prefect, he has alway spoken according to the mind of the Holy Father.
  5. The man has a record for fidelity to the popes.
Do not let people influence you with this Boogyman that they have created and named Mueller. Study the man’s work. If you don’t understand what he’s saying, take a course or get a good philosopher to interpret. Read Gustavo Gutierrez and flesh out the good in there and toss out the weaknesses. That’s how you become a true Catholic scholar. Otherwise, one is simply repeating what others say. It’s like telephone game. As it passes along the story is edited and improved upon. The end result is different from the real story.
 
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